Digest Number 2593

[Guest guest]

Eric,

 

To suggest that the same species of plant growing in different locations have

" totally " different chemical profiles is a little misleading. While they may be

different, in fact they may have different indications, they are rarely (if

ever) totally different, IMO. I have worked many long hours and give Western

medicinals to thousands of patients in CM style formulas and have come to the

conclusion that it is not only workable, it is necessary. Not to mention that

simple fact that I find it extremely interesting work. I have a manuscript being

reviewed currently, which I think will show, at least partially, that it is

possible. I eagerly await the input from other professionals who incorperate the

material into their practice.

 

>This is the big problem with using Western specimens of Chinese herbs.

>Some plants are the exact same species yet have totally different

>chemical profiles depending on their location. We can only learn of

>their effects through use, but it takes a lot of use, a lot of human

>guinea pigs (paying clients?), and minimal variables. Minimizing

>variables to determine effects is virtually impossible if using

>compound formulas, but if we aren't using compound formulas, we aren't

>doing anything similar to TCM. Can of worms.

 

> Also, I wanted to point out that Viscum is also used in Western

 

What is it used for in Western herbology?

 

 

Viscum is indicated for hypertension with headaches, dizziness, loss of energy

and irritablitiy. It is also used in various cancer therapies for a nonspecific

increase in the person's wellbeing. aka it makes them feel better and improves

their overall condition. It is not cytotoxic! Sound familiar?

 

 

 

>You mean that the plant and product are the same, but the species name

>changed? When did this name change occur?

 

Yes, that's what I mean. It has been well over a year now, perhaps even two. I

was disappointed to see this change not put into the new Bensky MM.

 

The WHO stuff sounds pretty interesting, where are you getting that information?

Is there a website I can check in on to see updates?

 

When is your MM due out, Eric?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Professor of

Honolulu, HI

808-349-8219

 

www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

 

 

for Good

Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Behalf Of Thomas Avery

> Garran

> Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:32 PM

>

> Re: Digest Number 2593

>

> Eric,

>

> To suggest that the same species of plant growing in different locations

> have " totally " different chemical profiles is a little misleading. While

> they may be different, in fact they may have different indications, they

> are rarely (if ever) totally different, IMO. I have worked many long hours

> and give Western medicinals to thousands of patients in CM style formulas

> and have come to the conclusion that it is not only workable, it is

> necessary. Not to mention that simple fact that I find it extremely

> interesting work. I have a manuscript being reviewed currently, which I

> think will show, at least partially, that it is possible.

 

How does this manuscript show that it is possible? Does it compare

constituent assays? As interesting as it may be, scientific (assays) or

massive clinical studies need to be done before we can even start to

consider such western cross-over (IMO). Otherwise it just seems

speculation, and we have had IMO enough of that with Holms and Tierra. Case

in point: Eric and I were with one of his botanist professors (Is that

right?) and he was explaining how peppers even in the same field had

drastically different constituent profiles due to the way the water

distribution was set-up. (Eric correct me if I am wrong). One can't even

begin to calculate all the variables that different locations hold. This is

demonstrated clearly in the Chinese materia medicas, the same plant grown in

different regions have DIFFERENT properties. I cannot think we in the USA

are somehow beyond basic science. So I agree with Eric's concerns about

chemical profiles. I think this is a real concern and only until we have

scientific data demonstrating they hold the same profiles, such assumptions

are only that, fun as it may be... It is also clear that when making

compounds (formulas) no one knows what is doing what. I am curious how

Thomas and others are coming to the conclusions that they do. I have a hard

time believing that 1 doctor (or even 10 doctors) giving western medicinals

in a TCM style can observe an individual herbs nature, unless one really

sets up some rigorous research style approach. We should remember how long

CM took to get where it is today and how many 100,000,000+++s of doctors and

patients came before us. Herb knowledge has evolved much in 3000+ years.

But that doesn't mean we can't advance on the Western front, I just think we

should acknowledge we are started at the ground floor, and not jump to such

claims as the past. A clear methodology and systematic approach is what

must lay on the ground floor, IMO... But I look forward to see Thomas's

work and approach, because it obviously will be one step in the direction of

furthering our knowledge using plants for healing.

 

-

 

 

I eagerly await

> the input from other professionals who incorperate the material into their

> practice.

>

> >This is the big problem with using Western specimens of Chinese herbs.

> >Some plants are the exact same species yet have totally different

> >chemical profiles depending on their location. We can only learn of

> >their effects through use, but it takes a lot of use, a lot of human

> >guinea pigs (paying clients?), and minimal variables. Minimizing

> >variables to determine effects is virtually impossible if using

> >compound formulas, but if we aren't using compound formulas, we aren't

> >doing anything similar to TCM. Can of worms.

>

> > Also, I wanted to point out that Viscum is also used in Western

>

> What is it used for in Western herbology?

>

>

> Viscum is indicated for hypertension with headaches, dizziness, loss of

> energy and irritablitiy. It is also used in various cancer therapies for a

> nonspecific increase in the person's wellbeing. aka it makes them feel

> better and improves their overall condition. It is not cytotoxic! Sound

> familiar?

>

>

>

> >You mean that the plant and product are the same, but the species name

> >changed? When did this name change occur?

>

> Yes, that's what I mean. It has been well over a year now, perhaps even

> two. I was disappointed to see this change not put into the new Bensky MM.

>

> The WHO stuff sounds pretty interesting, where are you getting that

> information? Is there a website I can check in on to see updates?

>

> When is your MM due out, Eric?

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Professor of

> Honolulu, HI

> 808-349-8219

>

> www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

>

>

> for Good

> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

> wrote:

>

> Eric,

> > To suggest that the same species of plant growing in different

locations have " totally " different chemical profiles is a little

misleading. While they may be different, in fact they may have

different indications, they are rarely (if ever) totally different, IMO.

 

I haven't studied the subject as in-depth as you have, but there are

many plants listed in the text " Chinese and Related North American

Herbs " that have different constituents even though the species is

identical. Even if the constituents are the same, are the ratios of

the various chemicals similar? The similarity may be greater than the

differences in many cases, and the variation (within the identical

species) between one plant in China and the next may be just as great

as the variation between a given Chinese plant and a given Western

plant.

 

There may be examples where a Western plant is superior and other

examples where it is inferior. But at present, we just don't know.

There isn't enough data available. It is hard to find sources that

even give the percentage of each constituent, and there is a lot of

variation already inherent in different individual plants. Most books

have only a list of chemicals that are present, but their quantity

(i.e. 2-4% dry weight) is rarely listed.

 

 

>>I have worked many long hours and give Western medicinals to

thousands of patients in CM style formulas and have come to the

conclusion that it is not only workable, it is >necessary. Not to

mention that simple fact that I find it extremely interesting work. I

>have a manuscript being reviewed currently, which I think will show,

at least >partially, that it is possible. I eagerly await the input

from other professionals who >incorperate the material into their

practice.

 

I agree that it is possible and interesting. I simply think that our

study of this subject is in its infancy. Very people have invested as

much effort into studying this stuff as you have. I would like to see

more people studying it and developing this knowledge. For now, it is

still in an experimental stage.

 

There are certainly patients who would like to experiment with Western

herbs integrated into their Chinese medicine, so finding consenting

volunteers should be easy enough. Ethically, I think that patients

should be informed about the fact that they are being guinea pigs

charting new territory, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that

the territory is worth charting. I think that there may even be

potential improvements from the Western cultivation of Asian plants,

or the use of similar plants from our ecosystem. Just look at the way

cannabis evolved following its cultivation in Holland.

 

It is natural to grow plants in other ecosystems, and generally they

are often similar. Tomatoes, avocados, chilies, and corn are all

grown here in Taiwan even though they came from the Americas

originally. None have the same flavor that they have in America, but

of course they are more similar than they are different. Whether

wild-crafted plants are equally similar, it is hard to say.

 

If our patients are coming to us for integrated global herbalism, then

that is what we should provide. If they are coming for Chinese

medicine, perhaps we should stick to the products that have been

tested by time and are used by millions of people in the present day.

 

 

> Viscum is indicated for hypertension with headaches, dizziness, loss

of energy and irritablitiy. It is also used in various cancer

therapies for a nonspecific increase in the person's wellbeing. aka it

makes them feel better and improves their overall condition. It is not

cytotoxic! Sound familiar?

 

Interesting.

 

> >You mean that the plant and product are the same, but the species name

> >changed? When did this name change occur?

>

> Yes, that's what I mean. It has been well over a year now, perhaps

even two. I was disappointed to see this change not put into the new

Bensky MM.

 

That is surprising.

 

> The WHO stuff sounds pretty interesting, where are you getting that

information? Is there a website I can check in on to see updates?

 

I know these things because Nigel Wiseman is involved in their

meetings and he tells me about some of the issues that lie ahead.

 

> When is your MM due out, Eric?

 

The MM is a concise text targeted largely towards students, though it

does contain the core material on a digital format for clinical use as

well. Bringing together the CD-Rom materials (such as self-test

software for student's exam prep, a good PDA display of the core data,

etc.) seems to drag on sometimes. Coordinating these things will

probably keep the text off the shelves for another few months.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@c...> wrote:

Case

> in point: Eric and I were with one of his botanist professors (Is that

> right?) and he was explaining how peppers even in the same field had

> drastically different constituent profiles due to the way the water

> distribution was set-up. (Eric correct me if I am wrong).

 

Your memory is accurate, but the discussion was related to potency of

capsaicin rather than different constituents. The professor that you

are speaking about is a botanist (but I studied horticulture with him,

not botany). He was saying that higher water stress makes the chilies

hotter. The peppers on the perimeter of the field are spicier because

they receive less water than those in the center of the field.

 

My grandma claims that she cannot make good green chili when she

visits her sister in San Diego. She says that the same anaheim

peppers in California aren't as spicy as they are in Colorado, and

says that they are hotter in her hometown in Southern Colorado than

they are in Denver. Though she doesn't know much about botany, she

knows a lot about making good green chile. Point being that even the

same cultivar within a given species can have varied constituents

depending on growing conditions, but Thomas is certainly aware of this.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

This fact is exhibited in the names of many of our favorite Chinese

herbs, which are best harvested in different regions, such as (Si)

chuan xiong.

 

I'll second that chili tale. I haven't been able to find chilis as

good as those grown in southern Colorado or New Mexico here in

California. You need the cool nights along with the hot sun to bring

out their full flavor. We're chili mavens as well in the Rosenberg

home.

 

 

On Oct 6, 2005, at 9:56 PM, Eric Brand wrote:

 

> My grandma claims that she cannot make good green chili when she

> visits her sister in San Diego. She says that the same anaheim

> peppers in California aren't as spicy as they are in Colorado, and

> says that they are hotter in her hometown in Southern Colorado than

> they are in Denver. Though she doesn't know much about botany, she

> knows a lot about making good green chile. Point being that even the

> same cultivar within a given species can have varied constituents

> depending on growing conditions, but Thomas is certainly aware of

> this.

>

> Eric

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> Thursday, October 06, 2005 10:57 PM

>

> Re: Digest Number 2593

>

> , " "

> <@c...> wrote:

> Case

> > in point: Eric and I were with one of his botanist professors (Is that

> > right?) and he was explaining how peppers even in the same field had

> > drastically different constituent profiles due to the way the water

> > distribution was set-up. (Eric correct me if I am wrong).

>

> Your memory is accurate, but the discussion was related to potency of

> capsaicin rather than different constituents. The professor that you

> are speaking about is a botanist (but I studied horticulture with him,

> not botany). He was saying that higher water stress makes the chilies

> hotter. The peppers on the perimeter of the field are spicier because

> they receive less water than those in the center of the field.

 

Yes 'different constituents' sounds a bit funny, I meant to say different

constituent ratios... Which I assume would be correct. Thanx for the

clarification.

 

 

>

> My grandma claims that she cannot make good green chili when she

> visits her sister in San Diego. She says that the same anaheim

> peppers in California aren't as spicy as they are in Colorado, and

> says that they are hotter in her hometown in Southern Colorado than

> they are in Denver. Though she doesn't know much about botany, she

> knows a lot about making good green chile. Point being that even the

> same cultivar within a given species can have varied constituents

> depending on growing conditions, but Thomas is certainly aware of this.

 

I am sure he is also. Thomas could you comment on how you factor this into

your project?

 

-Jason Blalalck

>

> Eric

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>