Was Ling Zhi now lets have some fun

[Guest guest]

Eric, Jason, and all,

 

Eric and Jason, your concerns are valid and I share them, except I don't believe

this is a project that is so far in its infancy as you suggest. The use of most

of the medicinals that I use in clinical practice is very well documented, just

not in Chinese sources (although there are some with related species). These

plants have been used for thousands of years by different cultures. The trick is

understanding them from the CM paradigm.

 

I love plants and love to experiment with them. I also love plant pharmacy,

that's why I make my own preparations, do pao zhi right in the clinic pharmacy,

and I still do some wildcrafting. I started taking practitioners out into the

field this year (three trips, one to the desert, one to the inner range of N.

CA, and one to the Sierra Nevada) I teach people about these plants, what ways

they might be similar to the Chinese medicinals they are familiar with and what

ways they are different. I don't propose that I have all the answers, but I have

a passion to learn and understand them that drives me to where I am. All my

first teachers were Western herbalists, Michael Tierra, Christopher Hobbs, Roy

Upton, David Hoffman, etc. For those of you who know, the first three of those

names are learned Chinese herbalists. I wouldn't say that they know their CM as

well as many on this list but they do know their plants and they all have three

plus decades of clinical experience. I have also

studied horticulture, am an avid gardener and am very aware of the issues

illustrated by Eric's chilli story. There is a brief discussion in the

manuscript concerning wildcrafting vs. cultivation.

 

I have had parts or the whole manuscript read by various folks who know the

plants I have written about. Now it is going through a CM litmus test. Finally,

it will go out to you and you all have a chance to integrate it into your

practice. Comment, amend, chide, or whatever you like but do keep in touch and

make it a reality.

 

I strongly believe that knowing the clinical use of a plant, no matter the

paradigm is valid. If you understand another paradigm it is possible, not easy,

to plug that plant into the second paradigm. When I started this work I was

taking off from what I learned from my teachers. Honestly, I doubt I really know

what the hell I was doing. Nevertheless, I am reasonably sure I never hurt

anyone and I hope my contribution to the field will be far-reaching and will

turn a corner, I believe desperately needs to be turned. The Chinese have long

imported medicinals from far off lands, several from the Americas. Do you think

they waited for chemical assays to determine how they might be similar to other

species they already used? Why do you think such work is NECESSARY to do this

type of integration? How would you translate chemical assays into usable

clinical information? If a plant is used for cough with thick yellow sputum in

one culture, why wouldn't that be true if we used in within the

CM paradigm?

 

Plants have long come from diverse locals. Tradition generally dictates from

where the best plants come (for a particular species). But sometime, it simply

doesn't make much difference. Other times it changes over time or under certain

circumstances. This all takes time to understand and each plant must be taken as

an individual. I'm sure I will look back on some things I wrote and cringe,

that's part of the process. I have been working on this material for over 11

years, its time to put it out there and start the revision/expansion of the

work. But first I need to get through the double major I am starting in a couple

months of ethnobotany and Chinese language. I plan to do graduate work in both,

starting with the Chinese. I need a break from practicing anyway.

 

That's all for now, I hope you all keep posting on this subject. Bob Flaws I

would love to hear your opinion. You are outspoken and it seems you have had

varying opinions on this subject through the years. And I would like to call out

anyone else who may have any interest in this subject. It is huge and

groundbreaking and a heck of a lot of fun. It will take all of us to make it a

reality.

 

In Green Health,

 

 

 

 

Professor of

Honolulu, HI

808-349-8219

 

www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

 

 

for Good

Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

 

Thanks for your comments. I think it is a fascinating field of study

and I'm happy to see that intelligent people are approaching it

diligently. I have a lot of respect for what you are doing and the

way that you are doing it.

 

Bringing medicines across cultures is very interesting and

challenging. I don't know too much about Western herbal medicine, and

most of what I know is closer to WM information with plants instead of

drugs. It is interesting to try to classify these things in TCM, just

as the Chinese themselves have been doing for thousands of years as

they incorporate new substances. The zhong yao da ci dian and the

even larger zhong yao ci hai have entries on all manners of plants

from the West, everything ranging from traditional foods like corn

silk and chili peppers, and traditional drugs like syrian rue and

coca. You are continuing a time-honored tradition, but it requires

solid knowledge in multiple disciplines, which few of us have.

 

Knowledge of ethnobotany and Chinese is a good combination. One thing

I was discovered in Taiwan was that many Chinese doctors are

fascinated by native American medicine and shamanism. They are really

interested in things like ayahuasca, wherein plant combinations are

revealed to the herbalist by " direct communication with the plants. "

Many Chinese doctors feel that the early days of Chinese medicine were

not dissimilar in terms of shamanic roots, and in some of the bush

wildcrafters in China to this day have perspectives that are probably

much closer to " primitive " medicine than they are to modern TCM.

 

We are in a very large field that isn't contained by a modern MM

alone. I often emphasize that people learn basic TCM well so that we

have a common starting point (too few people are sufficiently versed

in the basics, unfortunately), but there are many roads to branch out

on from there. Sometimes translating ideas across cultures is very

difficult, though. If an herb treats cough with yellow phlegm, it is

easy enough. But how do you translate something like ayahuasca into

a CM perspective? They have several potential 'sinohuasca'

combinations that they could make from their MM, but it is not obvious

that they ever discovered these combinations (or at least wrote about

them).

 

Eric

 

,

> wrote:

>

> Eric, Jason, and all,

>

> Eric and Jason, your concerns are valid and I share them, except I

don't believe this is a project that is so far in its infancy as you

suggest. The use of most of the medicinals that I use in clinical

practice is very well documented, just not in Chinese sources

(although there are some with related species). These plants have been

used for thousands of years by different cultures. The trick is

understanding them from the CM paradigm.

>

> I love plants and love to experiment with them. I also love plant

pharmacy, that's why I make my own preparations, do pao zhi right in

the clinic pharmacy, and I still do some wildcrafting. I started

taking practitioners out into the field this year (three trips, one to

the desert, one to the inner range of N. CA, and one to the Sierra

Nevada) I teach people about these plants, what ways they might be

similar to the Chinese medicinals they are familiar with and what ways

they are different. I don't propose that I have all the answers, but I

have a passion to learn and understand them that drives me to where I

am. All my first teachers were Western herbalists, Michael Tierra,

Christopher Hobbs, Roy Upton, David Hoffman, etc. For those of you who

know, the first three of those names are learned Chinese herbalists. I

wouldn't say that they know their CM as well as many on this list but

they do know their plants and they all have three plus decades of

clinical experience. I have also

> studied horticulture, am an avid gardener and am very aware of the

issues illustrated by Eric's chilli story. There is a brief discussion

in the manuscript concerning wildcrafting vs. cultivation.

>

> I have had parts or the whole manuscript read by various folks who

know the plants I have written about. Now it is going through a CM

litmus test. Finally, it will go out to you and you all have a chance

to integrate it into your practice. Comment, amend, chide, or whatever

you like but do keep in touch and make it a reality.

>

> I strongly believe that knowing the clinical use of a plant, no

matter the paradigm is valid. If you understand another paradigm it is

possible, not easy, to plug that plant into the second paradigm. When

I started this work I was taking off from what I learned from my

teachers. Honestly, I doubt I really know what the hell I was doing.

Nevertheless, I am reasonably sure I never hurt anyone and I hope my

contribution to the field will be far-reaching and will turn a corner,

I believe desperately needs to be turned. The Chinese have long

imported medicinals from far off lands, several from the Americas. Do

you think they waited for chemical assays to determine how they might

be similar to other species they already used? Why do you think such

work is NECESSARY to do this type of integration? How would you

translate chemical assays into usable clinical information? If a plant

is used for cough with thick yellow sputum in one culture, why

wouldn't that be true if we used in within the

> CM paradigm?

>

> Plants have long come from diverse locals. Tradition generally

dictates from where the best plants come (for a particular species).

But sometime, it simply doesn't make much difference. Other times it

changes over time or under certain circumstances. This all takes time

to understand and each plant must be taken as an individual. I'm sure

I will look back on some things I wrote and cringe, that's part of the

process. I have been working on this material for over 11 years, its

time to put it out there and start the revision/expansion of the work.

But first I need to get through the double major I am starting in a

couple months of ethnobotany and Chinese language. I plan to do

graduate work in both, starting with the Chinese. I need a break from

practicing anyway.

>

> That's all for now, I hope you all keep posting on this subject. Bob

Flaws I would love to hear your opinion. You are outspoken and it

seems you have had varying opinions on this subject through the years.

And I would like to call out anyone else who may have any interest in

this subject. It is huge and groundbreaking and a heck of a lot of

fun. It will take all of us to make it a reality.

>

> In Green Health,

>

>

>

>

> Professor of

> Honolulu, HI

> 808-349-8219

>

> www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

>

>

> for Good

> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> Friday, October 07, 2005 10:58 PM

>

> Re: Was Ling Zhi now lets have some fun

>

> Thomas,

>

> Thanks for your comments. I think it is a fascinating field of study

> and I'm happy to see that intelligent people are approaching it

> diligently. I have a lot of respect for what you are doing and the

> way that you are doing it.

>

> Bringing medicines across cultures is very interesting and

> challenging. I don't know too much about Western herbal medicine, and

> most of what I know is closer to WM information with plants instead of

> drugs. It is interesting to try to classify these things in TCM, just

> as the Chinese themselves have been doing for thousands of years as

> they incorporate new substances. The zhong yao da ci dian and the

> even larger zhong yao ci hai have entries on all manners of plants

> from the West, everything ranging from traditional foods like corn

> silk and chili peppers, and traditional drugs like syrian rue and

> coca. You are continuing a time-honored tradition, but it requires

> solid knowledge in multiple disciplines, which few of us have.

 

Eric (or others),

 

I don't know if you have this information, but I was wondering if there is

some 'process' that an herb goes through before it gets added to i.e. the

zhong yao da ci dian? As we know many herbs have been added in throughout

the ages, but I can only imagine that the Chinese have some method of

figuring out how an herb does what, this method would be useful...

 

 

>

> Knowledge of ethnobotany and Chinese is a good combination. One thing

> I was discovered in Taiwan was that many Chinese doctors are

> fascinated by native American medicine and shamanism. They are really

> interested in things like ayahuasca, wherein plant combinations are

> revealed to the herbalist by " direct communication with the plants. "

> Many Chinese doctors feel that the early days of Chinese medicine were

> not dissimilar in terms of shamanic roots, and in some of the bush

> wildcrafters in China to this day have perspectives that are probably

> much closer to " primitive " medicine than they are to modern TCM.

>

> We are in a very large field that isn't contained by a modern MM

> alone. I often emphasize that people learn basic TCM well so that we

> have a common starting point (too few people are sufficiently versed

> in the basics, unfortunately), but there are many roads to branch out

> on from there. Sometimes translating ideas across cultures is very

> difficult, though. If an herb treats cough with yellow phlegm, it is

> easy enough.

 

Or is it...? One may ask what is the mechanism that it treats the yellow

phlegm; with what combination of other herbs does it treat the yellow

phlegm. Does it treat the root or branch. Does it help dislodge it or just

moisten it. Does it clear heat or does it dry phlegm. Does it treat

(release the) exterior or interior. Does it disseminate the lung qi or

expand the chest. I think even such a simple statement as help yellow-phlegm

cough can lead to an immense amount a variables from a CM perspective,

especially when it comes to combos. What happens when one inserts herb a

into formula Y - IT can be very complicated. Personally if there was a

western herb in fron of me, and someone said it treats yellow phlegm, I

would have a hard time inserting into a Chinese RX. - How do I know how cold

it is? Is it just cool? Does it tax the digestion? How will it interact

with the other herbs? There are so many variables. But that is where

Thomas's book comes in, I would like to just hear the methodology Thomas

used to figure out all of these factors. But surely I look forward to his

work.

 

-

 

 

But how do you translate something like ayahuasca into

> a CM perspective? They have several potential 'sinohuasca'

> combinations that they could make from their MM, but it is not obvious

> that they ever discovered these combinations (or at least wrote about

> them).

>

> Eric

>

> ,

> > wrote:

> >

> > Eric, Jason, and all,

> >

> > Eric and Jason, your concerns are valid and I share them, except I

> don't believe this is a project that is so far in its infancy as you

> suggest. The use of most of the medicinals that I use in clinical

> practice is very well documented, just not in Chinese sources

> (although there are some with related species). These plants have been

> used for thousands of years by different cultures. The trick is

> understanding them from the CM paradigm.

> >

> > I love plants and love to experiment with them. I also love plant

> pharmacy, that's why I make my own preparations, do pao zhi right in

> the clinic pharmacy, and I still do some wildcrafting. I started

> taking practitioners out into the field this year (three trips, one to

> the desert, one to the inner range of N. CA, and one to the Sierra

> Nevada) I teach people about these plants, what ways they might be

> similar to the Chinese medicinals they are familiar with and what ways

> they are different. I don't propose that I have all the answers, but I

> have a passion to learn and understand them that drives me to where I

> am. All my first teachers were Western herbalists, Michael Tierra,

> Christopher Hobbs, Roy Upton, David Hoffman, etc. For those of you who

> know, the first three of those names are learned Chinese herbalists. I

> wouldn't say that they know their CM as well as many on this list but

> they do know their plants and they all have three plus decades of

> clinical experience. I have also

> > studied horticulture, am an avid gardener and am very aware of the

> issues illustrated by Eric's chilli story. There is a brief discussion

> in the manuscript concerning wildcrafting vs. cultivation.

> >

> > I have had parts or the whole manuscript read by various folks who

> know the plants I have written about. Now it is going through a CM

> litmus test. Finally, it will go out to you and you all have a chance

> to integrate it into your practice. Comment, amend, chide, or whatever

> you like but do keep in touch and make it a reality.

> >

> > I strongly believe that knowing the clinical use of a plant, no

> matter the paradigm is valid. If you understand another paradigm it is

> possible, not easy, to plug that plant into the second paradigm. When

> I started this work I was taking off from what I learned from my

> teachers. Honestly, I doubt I really know what the hell I was doing.

> Nevertheless, I am reasonably sure I never hurt anyone and I hope my

> contribution to the field will be far-reaching and will turn a corner,

> I believe desperately needs to be turned. The Chinese have long

> imported medicinals from far off lands, several from the Americas. Do

> you think they waited for chemical assays to determine how they might

> be similar to other species they already used? Why do you think such

> work is NECESSARY to do this type of integration? How would you

> translate chemical assays into usable clinical information? If a plant

> is used for cough with thick yellow sputum in one culture, why

> wouldn't that be true if we used in within the

> > CM paradigm?

> >

> > Plants have long come from diverse locals. Tradition generally

> dictates from where the best plants come (for a particular species).

> But sometime, it simply doesn't make much difference. Other times it

> changes over time or under certain circumstances. This all takes time

> to understand and each plant must be taken as an individual. I'm sure

> I will look back on some things I wrote and cringe, that's part of the

> process. I have been working on this material for over 11 years, its

> time to put it out there and start the revision/expansion of the work.

> But first I need to get through the double major I am starting in a

> couple months of ethnobotany and Chinese language. I plan to do

> graduate work in both, starting with the Chinese. I need a break from

> practicing anyway.

> >

> > That's all for now, I hope you all keep posting on this subject. Bob

> Flaws I would love to hear your opinion. You are outspoken and it

> seems you have had varying opinions on this subject through the years.

> And I would like to call out anyone else who may have any interest in

> this subject. It is huge and groundbreaking and a heck of a lot of

> fun. It will take all of us to make it a reality.

> >

> > In Green Health,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Professor of

> > Honolulu, HI

> > 808-349-8219

> >

> > www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

> >

> >

> > for Good

> > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

> >

> >