Was Ling Zhi now lets have some fun

October 8, 2005

Jason, et al,

Your questions below are valid. The main issue is whether or not there is

sufficient information available in the Western herbal literature to answer most

of the questions you ask. I would argue that there is, BUT the language is

different and the information is not always readily available, it is certainly

not found in popular herb books.

I would also like to point out that, IMO, this work must be done, in part, by

PERSONAL experimentation. I take this stuff, sometime in large quantities, to

see what happens. Call me a modern day Shennong if you like, but this is a

process that many Western herbalists are trained by. We call it a proving, a way

to have personal experience with a medicinal, which helps us to understand the

medicinal. I don't mean to imply that all Western herbalists take large doses of

all Western herbs, that's reserved for lunatics like me and a few others who

really love plants.

Frankly, I think the " so many variables " motif is more paranoia than sensible.

The Chinese don't seem to have any problem adding new medicinals into their

materia medica, why should we. Case in point, look at your new Bensky page 735

and 741. If that doesn't support my assertion then oh well :-}

Thomas

> If an herb treats cough with yellow phlegm, it is

> easy enough.

Or is it...? One may ask what is the mechanism that it treats the

yellow

phlegm; with what combination of other herbs does it treat the yellow

phlegm. Does it treat the root or branch. Does it help dislodge it or

just

moisten it. Does it clear heat or does it dry phlegm. Does it treat

(release the) exterior or interior. Does it disseminate the lung qi or

expand the chest. I think even such a simple statement as help

yellow-phlegm

cough can lead to an immense amount a variables from a CM perspective,

especially when it comes to combos. What happens when one inserts herb

a

into formula Y - IT can be very complicated. Personally if there was a

western herb in fron of me, and someone said it treats yellow phlegm, I

would have a hard time inserting into a Chinese RX. - How do I know how

cold

it is? Is it just cool? Does it tax the digestion? How will it

interact

with the other herbs? There are so many variables. But that is where

Thomas's book comes in, I would like to just hear the methodology

Thomas

used to figure out all of these factors. But surely I look forward to

his

work.

-

Professor of

Honolulu, HI

808-349-8219

www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

October 8, 2005

>

> On Behalf Of Thomas Avery

> Garran

> Saturday, October 08, 2005 3:14 PM

>

> Was Ling Zhi now lets have some fun

>

> Jason, et al,

>

> Your questions below are valid. The main issue is whether or not there is

> sufficient information available in the Western herbal literature to

> answer most of the questions you ask. I would argue that there is, BUT the

> language is different and the information is not always readily available,

> it is certainly not found in popular herb books.

>

> I would also like to point out that, IMO, this work must be done, in part,

> by PERSONAL experimentation. I take this stuff, sometime in large

> quantities, to see what happens. Call me a modern day Shennong if you

like,

> but this is a process that many Western herbalists are trained by. We call

> it a proving, a way to have personal experience with a medicinal, which

> helps us to understand the medicinal. I don't mean to imply that all

> Western herbalists take large doses of all Western herbs, that's reserved

> for lunatics like me and a few others who really love plants.

>

> Frankly, I think the " so many variables " motif is more paranoia than

> sensible. The Chinese don't seem to have any problem adding new medicinals

> into their materia medica, why should we.

My guess is there is some method they go through, and it is not just a

handful of herbalist experimenting. IT is 100's to 1000's of doctor's

conclusions and research... But I could be wrong. They also have a FIRM

grasp of TCM unlike Tierra's etc.

-

Case in point, look at your new

> Bensky page 735 and 741. If that doesn't support my assertion then oh

> well :-}

>

> Thomas

>

> > If an herb treats cough with yellow phlegm, it is

> > easy enough.

>

> Or is it...? One may ask what is the mechanism that it treats the

> yellow

> phlegm; with what combination of other herbs does it treat the yellow

> phlegm. Does it treat the root or branch. Does it help dislodge it or

> just

> moisten it. Does it clear heat or does it dry phlegm. Does it treat

> (release the) exterior or interior. Does it disseminate the lung qi or

> expand the chest. I think even such a simple statement as help

> yellow-phlegm

> cough can lead to an immense amount a variables from a CM perspective,

> especially when it comes to combos. What happens when one inserts herb

> a

> into formula Y - IT can be very complicated. Personally if there was a

> western herb in fron of me, and someone said it treats yellow phlegm, I

> would have a hard time inserting into a Chinese RX. - How do I know how

> cold

> it is? Is it just cool? Does it tax the digestion? How will it

> interact

> with the other herbs? There are so many variables. But that is where

> Thomas's book comes in, I would like to just hear the methodology

> Thomas

> used to figure out all of these factors. But surely I look forward to

> his

> work.

>

> -

>

> Professor of

> Honolulu, HI

> 808-349-8219

>

> www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

>

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

>

October 8, 2005

>

> On Behalf Of Thomas Avery

> Garran

> Saturday, October 08, 2005 3:14 PM

>

> Was Ling Zhi now lets have some fun

>

> Jason, et al,

>

> Your questions below are valid. The main issue is whether or not there is

> sufficient information available in the Western herbal literature to

> answer most of the questions you ask.

I would argue that there is, BUT the

> language is different and the information is not always readily available,

> it is certainly not found in popular herb books.>

But one surely has to ask, how reliable is this fringe literature? And what

books are you talking about, I have read many many 'non-popular' books and

have never been impressed.

Before I studied Western Herbalism, I not only found the

literature scarce, but earlier works were pretty much useless because the

western medicine theory that it was based on was in its infancy and the

terms and diseases are almost laughable now. These earlier works are almost

intangible. I actually lived in Cincinnati, home of the famous lloyd

library (eclectic institute), were it houses one of the largest collections

of books in western herbalism. I use to visit this library often. The room

was the size of my bedroom. IT was always like trying to find a needle in a

haystack, a majority of it somewhat useless. I am actually reminded of the

infancy of western herbalism right now as I surf Michael moore's website:

http://www.swsbm.com/homepage/

This site has many reprints of supposedly the most famous western herbalist

texts. Just read some of this stuff. Actually quite humorous.

I have to wonder, how long of a history does modern day western herblaism

have? Yeah, one can say it goes back 1000's of years. This is a joke. IT

is very new. Just one hundred years ago it is super basic. One can see this.

So what is the point? Well at least I can't find that there is " sufficient

information available in the Western herbal literature " as you suggest.

Where is it? Maybe I missed a whole genre of books and information, but the

lack of material, precision, depth, and history is precisely why I got into

. It is clearly from my perspective, night and day. But I

am open to your stance. If you don't mind I would like to see some examples

of the depth of western herbal knowledge and how we can transfer this into

CM. When one looks at these books, they read like this: this herb is good

for cough. Ok next herb... This one is good for the stomach. Ok... and ....

Even looking further to around 1930 one looks at the eclectic's list of

formulas one sees a super simplified approach. Here is a formula labeled

'stomach tonic', ok next.. here is a formula for insomnia. Ok next...

Even the modern day Moore manuals leave much to ponder. No details, just 3

sentence entries for herbs and then here is a formula for allergies, ok

next, here is one for candida.. next.. I would really like to see somewhere

where there is some depth, discussion of theory beyond simples or formuals

based on western medicine. I would like to see how to modify based on the

patient. I would like to see a differentiation for patterns, not just this

herb is good for cough, or cough with yellow phlegm. What if the pathogen

is on the exterior. What if the pathogen is in the interior.. Oh wait, does

Western Herbalism even have such a concept. Without ever seeing this I have

a hard time believing there is 'plenty of western herbalism literature' to

sufficiently be able to classify herbs in .

Now I am not completely bashing western herblism. Clearly it has helped

many people. But it is a different and YOUNG system.

Enough ranting, I am actually quite interested in your work. And if you

could share some examples I would enjoy it or at least some online

information to expand my horizons...

-

e.

> I would also like to point out that, IMO, this work must be done, in part,

> by PERSONAL experimentation. I take this stuff, sometime in large

> quantities, to see what happens. Call me a modern day Shennong if you

like,

> but this is a process that many Western herbalists are trained by. We call

> it a proving, a way to have personal experience with a medicinal, which

> helps us to understand the medicinal. I don't mean to imply that all

> Western herbalists take large doses of all Western herbs, that's reserved

> for lunatics like me and a few others who really love plants.

>

> Frankly, I think the " so many variables " motif is more paranoia than

> sensible. The Chinese don't seem to have any problem adding new medicinals

> into their materia medica, why should we. Case in point, look at your new

> Bensky page 735 and 741. If that doesn't support my assertion then oh

> well :-}

>

> Thomas

>

> > If an herb treats cough with yellow phlegm, it is

> > easy enough.

>

> Or is it...? One may ask what is the mechanism that it treats the

> yellow

> phlegm; with what combination of other herbs does it treat the yellow

> phlegm. Does it treat the root or branch. Does it help dislodge it or

> just

> moisten it. Does it clear heat or does it dry phlegm. Does it treat

> (release the) exterior or interior. Does it disseminate the lung qi or

> expand the chest. I think even such a simple statement as help

> yellow-phlegm

> cough can lead to an immense amount a variables from a CM perspective,

> especially when it comes to combos. What happens when one inserts herb

> a

> into formula Y - IT can be very complicated. Personally if there was a

> western herb in fron of me, and someone said it treats yellow phlegm, I

> would have a hard time inserting into a Chinese RX. - How do I know how

> cold

> it is? Is it just cool? Does it tax the digestion? How will it

> interact

> with the other herbs? There are so many variables. But that is where

> Thomas's book comes in, I would like to just hear the methodology

> Thomas

> used to figure out all of these factors. But surely I look forward to

> his

> work.

>

> -

>

> Professor of

> Honolulu, HI

> 808-349-8219

>

> www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

>

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

>

October 8, 2005

I have to basically agree with Jason. I would say, however, if one

goes further back to the works of Maimonides, Ibn Sina, and other

Greco-Arabic physicians, a few of whose works are translated into

English, one will see a very sophisticated diagnostic and treatment

system similar in many ways to Chinese medicine. Unfortunately, it

largely fell into disuse with the advent of Western medicine

about. . . 100 years ago! This system still survives in India and

Pakistan as Unani medicine.

On Oct 8, 2005, at 5:25 PM, wrote:

>

>>

>> On Behalf Of Thomas Avery

>> Garran

>> Saturday, October 08, 2005 3:14 PM

>>

>> Was Ling Zhi now lets have some fun

>>

>> Jason, et al,

>>

>> Your questions below are valid. The main issue is whether or not

>> there is

>> sufficient information available in the Western herbal literature to

>> answer most of the questions you ask.

>>

> I would argue that there is, BUT the

>

>> language is different and the information is not always readily

>> available,

>> it is certainly not found in popular herb books.>

>>

>

> But one surely has to ask, how reliable is this fringe literature?

> And what

> books are you talking about, I have read many many 'non-popular'

> books and

> have never been impressed.

>

> Before I studied Western Herbalism, I not only

> found the

> literature scarce, but earlier works were pretty much useless

> because the

> western medicine theory that it was based on was in its infancy and

> the

> terms and diseases are almost laughable now. These earlier works

> are almost

> intangible. I actually lived in Cincinnati, home of the famous lloyd

> library (eclectic institute), were it houses one of the largest

> collections

> of books in western herbalism. I use to visit this library often.

> The room

> was the size of my bedroom. IT was always like trying to find a

> needle in a

> haystack, a majority of it somewhat useless. I am actually reminded

> of the

> infancy of western herbalism right now as I surf Michael moore's

> website:

> http://www.swsbm.com/homepage/

> This site has many reprints of supposedly the most famous western

> herbalist

> texts. Just read some of this stuff. Actually quite humorous.

>

> I have to wonder, how long of a history does modern day western

> herblaism

> have? Yeah, one can say it goes back 1000's of years. This is a

> joke. IT

> is very new. Just one hundred years ago it is super basic. One can

> see this.

>

> So what is the point? Well at least I can't find that there is

> " sufficient

> information available in the Western herbal literature " as you

> suggest.

> Where is it? Maybe I missed a whole genre of books and

> information, but the

> lack of material, precision, depth, and history is precisely why I

> got into

> . It is clearly from my perspective, night and

> day. But I

> am open to your stance. If you don't mind I would like to see some

> examples

> of the depth of western herbal knowledge and how we can transfer

> this into

> CM. When one looks at these books, they read like this: this herb

> is good

> for cough. Ok next herb... This one is good for the stomach. Ok...

> and ....

>

> Even looking further to around 1930 one looks at the eclectic's

> list of

> formulas one sees a super simplified approach. Here is a formula

> labeled

> 'stomach tonic', ok next.. here is a formula for insomnia. Ok next...

>

> Even the modern day Moore manuals leave much to ponder. No

> details, just 3

> sentence entries for herbs and then here is a formula for

> allergies, ok

> next, here is one for candida.. next.. I would really like to see

> somewhere

> where there is some depth, discussion of theory beyond simples or

> formuals

> based on western medicine. I would like to see how to modify based

> on the

> patient. I would like to see a differentiation for patterns, not

> just this

> herb is good for cough, or cough with yellow phlegm. What if the

> pathogen

> is on the exterior. What if the pathogen is in the interior.. Oh

> wait, does

> Western Herbalism even have such a concept. Without ever seeing

> this I have

> a hard time believing there is 'plenty of western herbalism

> literature' to

> sufficiently be able to classify herbs in .

>

> Now I am not completely bashing western herblism. Clearly it has

> helped

> many people. But it is a different and YOUNG system.

> Enough ranting, I am actually quite interested in your work. And

> if you

> could share some examples I would enjoy it or at least some online

> information to expand my horizons...

>

> -

>

> e.

>

>> I would also like to point out that, IMO, this work must be done,

>> in part,

>> by PERSONAL experimentation. I take this stuff, sometime in large

>> quantities, to see what happens. Call me a modern day Shennong if you

>>

> like,

>

>> but this is a process that many Western herbalists are trained by.

>> We call

>> it a proving, a way to have personal experience with a medicinal,

>> which

>> helps us to understand the medicinal. I don't mean to imply that all

>> Western herbalists take large doses of all Western herbs, that's

>> reserved

>> for lunatics like me and a few others who really love plants.

>>

>> Frankly, I think the " so many variables " motif is more paranoia than

>> sensible. The Chinese don't seem to have any problem adding new

>> medicinals

>> into their materia medica, why should we. Case in point, look at

>> your new

>> Bensky page 735 and 741. If that doesn't support my assertion then oh

>> well :-}

>>

>> Thomas

>>

>>> If an herb treats cough with yellow phlegm, it is

>>> easy enough.

>>>

>>

>> Or is it...? One may ask what is the mechanism that it treats the

>> yellow

>> phlegm; with what combination of other herbs does it treat the yellow

>> phlegm. Does it treat the root or branch. Does it help dislodge

>> it or

>> just

>> moisten it. Does it clear heat or does it dry phlegm. Does it treat

>> (release the) exterior or interior. Does it disseminate the lung

>> qi or

>> expand the chest. I think even such a simple statement as help

>> yellow-phlegm

>> cough can lead to an immense amount a variables from a CM

>> perspective,

>> especially when it comes to combos. What happens when one inserts

>> herb

>> a

>> into formula Y - IT can be very complicated. Personally if there

>> was a

>> western herb in fron of me, and someone said it treats yellow

>> phlegm, I

>> would have a hard time inserting into a Chinese RX. - How do I

>> know how

>> cold

>> it is? Is it just cool? Does it tax the digestion? How will it

>> interact

>> with the other herbs? There are so many variables. But that is where

>> Thomas's book comes in, I would like to just hear the methodology

>> Thomas

>> used to figure out all of these factors. But surely I look

>> forward to

>> his

>> work.

>>

>> -

>>

>> Professor of

>> Honolulu, HI

>> 808-349-8219

>>

>> www.herbsandmore.photostockplus.com

>>

>> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

>>

October 9, 2005

Each week I read these emails and sort out which ones actually contain some herb

information, technique, or some sort of enlightenment. But recently I find

myself not even bothering. I see the same mind sets of other professions that

we complain about, " If it wasn't printed in the traditional way or medical

model. " ... I hear, also, that the Chinese counterpart of an American herbs is

more potent. So if we take those thoughts one step further we can say that

local American herbs do not have the ability to be used to treat the local

inhabitants. Doesn't this go against the the idea that the herbs to treat the

patient could be found locally? Isn't it up to TCM practitioners to test the

herbs on themselves before giving them to their patients? To make sure of the

energetics of the herb? Or do we reliquish responsibility to one set system or

book?

Another point I have is that there are Native Americans who have been using

roots, plants, fruits and barks for food up into the 1900's, as their meat

source was decimated. They relied upon the plants and trees that they had

always used. I, personally would consider quotes on herbal properties from

Native American use reliable. Yes, we as the TCM practitioner may have to flush

out some information to fit it into our model of diagnosis.

The last point I have is that we had better get past our egos and help each

other though constructive critism and sharing of information. Otherwise the

pharmaceutical companies will start attacking American herbal supplements next.

The government doesn't want to pass tariffs on imports because other countries

will in retaliation raise tariffs on American goods. But what they can do to

protect American business is to restrict items as being unsafe at the word of

the American Medical Asssociation and pharmaceutical companies.

Oh, I would like to comment on the government and the bird flu. The age group

likely to have the high mortality rate would be the elderly who are drawing

Social Security.The government would probably would not mind seeing a decrease

in the output of monies in this program.

Does anybody know if there is any literature that documents the stages of SARS

and how the Chinese treated it with TCM or meds? I have had one teacher

recommend the 3 treasures, I guess that is for the last stages?

Jeff " not that I want to get along, but can't we just all get along? "

wrote: