Guest guest Posted October 11, 2005 Report Share Posted October 11, 2005 Although they process it a bit differently, the Ayurvedic 'jatamamsi' is the same root. Gan song is also a close cousin to the Western Valerian. So these associations may or may not help depending on your cutural interests, but you can see the similaries in digestive, anxiolytic and analgesic actions, I think. Gus Turpin >It's also a general analgesic. In terms of that, I'd say it's more like Yan Hu Suo or Chuan Xiong than Chen Pi and Mu Xiang. Bob > > > Hi All, > > > > Does anyone out ther know what nardostachytis is and does?? A > > patient brought me the label of a Chinese formula she had taken a > > while ago, and this is one of the ingredients. It's not in my old > > copy of Bensky, unless it also has another name. > > > > Thanks, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2005 Report Share Posted October 15, 2005 I have used Valeriana jatamamsi quite a lot; it is similar to the sedative effects of western valerian, but not as strong. Interestingly, it also stinks, but not as bad as western valerian. Nardostachys is often used as a replacement. There is a nice description of nardostachys on the ITM web site: http://www.itmonline.org/arts/valerian.htm - Bill Schoenbart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2005 Report Share Posted October 16, 2005 Hi Bill, That's interesting ... . ITM0nline says the new name for Nardostachys jatamamsi is Nardostachys grandiflora. Also on Subhuti's website he seems to say the use of this/these plants may have spread to China from India. He also says Valeriana jatamamsi is sometimes used as a substitute for Nardostachys, not vice versa (and as as I mention below, both are otherwhere said to be used in place of Western valerian). I suppose what's used as a 'replacement' could be seen as relative to who is using it and where, though ... . Nadkarni (Indian Materia Medica) seems to say that at his time (1908) Nardostachys jatamamsi is considered the same as Valeriana jatamamsi (the species name he also shows has been spelled 'jatamanshi'). He says this is also used as a subtitute for Valeriana officinalis. This all may be a bit confusing but I'd tend to belive Subuti's nomenclature since he's contemporary and has a (very) good grasp of modern biology. From what I've seen and read though, the materials 'gan song' and 'jatamamsi' we get here are usually Nardostachys (jatmamsi/grandiflora) and not Valeriana (although the names/grouping may change sometime soon anyway). I realize this may seem like spilting hairs, but I consider Bill educated and enough of a friend to try this with and maybe a few of us can learn in the process. I'm paricularly curious about differences people may have noticed in the plants or their effects. I agree with Subhuti that gan song smells better than Valerian. Happy Healing, Gus Turpin > > I have used Valeriana jatamamsi quite a lot; it is similar to the sedative > effects of western valerian, but not as strong. Interestingly, it also > stinks, but not as bad as western valerian. Nardostachys is often used as a > replacement. There is a nice description of nardostachys on the ITM web > site: > http://www.itmonline.org/arts/valerian.htm > - Bill Schoenbart > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 In doing a bit more nardy research I see some sources (like Hsu, Hong Yen's MM that Subhuti seems to quote alot) list gan song as Nardostachys chinensis. So I think the material we usually get here is either Nardostachys jatamamsi/grandiflora (which some other sources list as gan song) or Nardostachys chinensis. I don't have the inclination to try to do the taxonomy to distinguish them, but I agree with some others on the list that it's sometimes helpful to have some basic idea of what herb we're actually using (whether so that we can avoid substitution or so that we can wisely substitute if need be). Gus Turpin, MTCM > Hi Bill, That's interesting ... . > ITM0nline says the new name for Nardostachys jatamamsi is > Nardostachys grandiflora. Also on Subhuti's website he seems to say > the use of this/these plants may have spread to China from India. He > also says Valeriana jatamamsi is sometimes used as a substitute for > Nardostachys, not vice versa (and as as I mention below, both are > otherwhere said to be used in place of Western valerian). I suppose > what's used as a 'replacement' could be seen as relative to who is > using it and where, though ... . > Nadkarni (Indian Materia Medica) seems to say that at his time > (1908) Nardostachys jatamamsi is considered the same as Valeriana > jatamamsi (the species name he also shows has been spelled > 'jatamanshi'). He says this is also used as a subtitute for Valeriana > officinalis. > This all may be a bit confusing but I'd tend to belive Subuti's > nomenclature since he's contemporary and has a (very) good grasp of > modern biology. From what I've seen and read though, the materials > 'gan song' and 'jatamamsi' we get here are usually Nardostachys > (jatmamsi/grandiflora) and not Valeriana (although the names/grouping > may change sometime soon anyway). > I realize this may seem like spilting hairs, but I consider Bill > educated and enough of a friend to try this with and maybe a few of us > can learn in the process. I'm paricularly curious about differences > people may have noticed in the plants or their effects. I agree with > Subhuti that gan song smells better than Valerian. Happy Healing, Gus > Turpin > > > > > I have used Valeriana jatamamsi quite a lot; it is similar to the > sedative > > effects of western valerian, but not as strong. Interestingly, it also > > stinks, but not as bad as western valerian. Nardostachys is often > used as a > > replacement. There is a nice description of nardostachys on the ITM web > > site: > > http://www.itmonline.org/arts/valerian.htm > > - Bill Schoenbart > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Hi Gus, I don't think you were splitting hairs. It can be challenging to figure out what species we are really using. Andy Ellis and Robert Newman have done some good work in that area. I posted the link because all of my experience is with the Valeriana source of jatamamsi. It seemed that Subhuti had a good take on it. Have you ever seen the Nardostachys-sourced jatamamsi? I'm curious to know how it smells and tastes. - Bill >>>>Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:53:36 -0000 " Gus Turpin " < tonics Re: nardostachys Hi Bill, That's interesting ... . ITM0nline says the new name for Nardostachys jatamamsi is Nardostachys grandiflora. Also on Subhuti's website he seems to say the use of this/these plants may have spread to China from India. He also says Valeriana jatamamsi is sometimes used as a substitute for Nardostachys, not vice versa (and as as I mention below, both are otherwhere said to be used in place of Western valerian). I suppose what's used as a 'replacement' could be seen as relative to who is using it and where, though ... . Nadkarni (Indian Materia Medica) seems to say that at his time (1908) Nardostachys jatamamsi is considered the same as Valeriana jatamamsi (the species name he also shows has been spelled 'jatamanshi'). He says this is also used as a subtitute for Valeriana officinalis. This all may be a bit confusing but I'd tend to belive Subuti's nomenclature since he's contemporary and has a (very) good grasp of modern biology. From what I've seen and read though, the materials 'gan song' and 'jatamamsi' we get here are usually Nardostachys (jatmamsi/grandiflora) and not Valeriana (although the names/grouping may change sometime soon anyway). I realize this may seem like spilting hairs, but I consider Bill educated and enough of a friend to try this with and maybe a few of us can learn in the process. I'm paricularly curious about differences people may have noticed in the plants or their effects. I agree with Subhuti that gan song smells better than Valerian. Happy Healing, Gus Turpin > > I have used Valeriana jatamamsi quite a lot; it is similar to the sedative > effects of western valerian, but not as strong. Interestingly, it also > stinks, but not as bad as western valerian. Nardostachys is often used as a > replacement. There is a nice description of nardostachys on the ITM web > site: > http://www.itmonline.org/arts/valerian.htm > - Bill Schoenbart > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Hi Bill, Actually the only Nardostachys I've ordered is from NuHerbs, it's marked N. chinensis and smells more mild and fragrant than Valeriana officinalis (I've never seen or smelled V. jatamamsi as far as I know -unless this is really it- so can't compare). I know a good source for Indian N. jatamamsi but as I said they treat it differently so the smell might be different, and they may not have all the same plant parts. I could order some of that to compare, I guess. This seems to be a mix of root, rhizome, stem and leaf. The leaves don't seem to be as serrate as the Valeriana officinalis I've seen (although I believe V. jatamamsi is less serrate than V. officinallis, the latter of which I think we both have in our gardens). I'd have to find the botanical descriptions of each and then try to ID based on the dry shreds to even attempt to verify what it really is. I think NuHerbs is pretty reliable (nowadays anyway), though. I'd be happy to send a sample to you and maybe the first half dozen or so folks on this list (in the US) who want to see/smell some. Where do you get your V. jatamamsi/Nardostachys sp. and what is it labeled? I think in this case the herbs are close enough not to be too worried about it unless maybe we wanted to ID it for relabeling or for growing specimens from seed (roots/rhizomes are not typically even harvested at seeding stage), but it's probably a good exercise and I think the kind of thing we both like investigating sometimes. Maybe we could get some N. jatamasi from a good Ayurvedic source like Banyan and from another good TCM souce like Asian Naturals and compare? > > Hi Gus, > I don't think you were splitting hairs. It can be challenging to figure out > what species we are really using. Andy Ellis and Robert Newman have done > some good work in that area. I posted the link because all of my experience > is with the Valeriana source of jatamamsi. It seemed that Subhuti had a good > take on it. Have you ever seen the Nardostachys-sourced jatamamsi? I'm > curious to know how it smells and tastes. > - Bill > >>>>Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:53:36 -0000 > " Gus Turpin " < tonics@c...> > Re: nardostachys > > Hi Bill, That's interesting ... . > ITM0nline says the new name for Nardostachys jatamamsi is > Nardostachys grandiflora. Also on Subhuti's website he seems to say > the use of this/these plants may have spread to China from India. He > also says Valeriana jatamamsi is sometimes used as a substitute for > Nardostachys, not vice versa (and as as I mention below, both are > otherwhere said to be used in place of Western valerian). I suppose > what's used as a 'replacement' could be seen as relative to who is > using it and where, though ... . > Nadkarni (Indian Materia Medica) seems to say that at his time > (1908) Nardostachys jatamamsi is considered the same as Valeriana > jatamamsi (the species name he also shows has been spelled > 'jatamanshi'). He says this is also used as a subtitute for Valeriana > officinalis. > This all may be a bit confusing but I'd tend to belive Subuti's > nomenclature since he's contemporary and has a (very) good grasp of > modern biology. From what I've seen and read though, the materials > 'gan song' and 'jatamamsi' we get here are usually Nardostachys > (jatmamsi/grandiflora) and not Valeriana (although the names/grouping > may change sometime soon anyway). > I realize this may seem like spilting hairs, but I consider Bill > educated and enough of a friend to try this with and maybe a few of us > can learn in the process. I'm paricularly curious about differences > people may have noticed in the plants or their effects. I agree with > Subhuti that gan song smells better than Valerian. Happy Healing, Gus > Turpin > > > > > I have used Valeriana jatamamsi quite a lot; it is similar to the > sedative > > effects of western valerian, but not as strong. Interestingly, it also > > stinks, but not as bad as western valerian. Nardostachys is often > used as a > > replacement. There is a nice description of nardostachys on the ITM web > > site: > > http://www.itmonline.org/arts/valerian.htm > > - Bill Schoenbart > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Gus, I no longer have access to the same jatamamsi source. I'll ask a couple of Ayurvedic practitioners for suggestions on sourcing and I'll order some Nardostachys. If you get some from Asia Naturals, I'll be glad to trade you some for comparison. If you're coming to Santa Cruz for the Fungus Fair in January, we can compare the samples there. - Bill >>> Hi Bill, Actually the only Nardostachys I've ordered is from NuHerbs, it's marked N. chinensis and smells more mild and fragrant than Valeriana officinalis (I've never seen or smelled V. jatamamsi as far as I know -unless this is really it- so can't compare). I know a good source for Indian N. jatamamsi but as I said they treat it differently so the smell might be different, and they may not have all the same plant parts. I could order some of that to compare, I guess. This seems to be a mix of root, rhizome, stem and leaf. The leaves don't seem to be as serrate as the Valeriana officinalis I've seen (although I believe V. jatamamsi is less serrate than V. officinallis, the latter of which I think we both have in our gardens). I'd have to find the botanical descriptions of each and then try to ID based on the dry shreds to even attempt to verify what it really is. I think NuHerbs is pretty reliable (nowadays anyway), though. I'd be happy to send a sample to you and maybe the first half dozen or so folks on this list (in the US) who want to see/smell some. Where do you get your V. jatamamsi/Nardostachys sp. and what is it labeled? I think in this case the herbs are close enough not to be too worried about it unless maybe we wanted to ID it for relabeling or for growing specimens from seed (roots/rhizomes are not typically even harvested at seeding stage), but it's probably a good exercise and I think the kind of thing we both like investigating sometimes. Maybe we could get some N. jatamasi from a good Ayurvedic source like Banyan and from another good TCM souce like Asian Naturals and compare?>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Regarding the discussion about the use of Nardostachys in Chinese medicine, it was brought to my attention that Nardostachys grandiflora is listed in CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species). For that reason, I have decided not to begin using this species. Here's the reference: http://www.cites.org/eng/com/PC/10/PC10-10-2-3.pdf Bill Schoenbart PO Box 8099 Santa Cruz, CA 95061 831-335-3165 plantmed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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