Medicinals that affect the extraordinary channels

[Guest guest]

I translated this table for another project, but I thought it was interesting

and worth sharing with the group. It comes from the De Pei Ben Cao.

 

xiao3 hui2 xiang1 (Foeniculi Fructus). Enters the

extraordinary vessels bai2 shao2 (Paeoniae Radix Alba).. Governs

yang2 wei2 (yang2 linking vessel) [aversion to] cold and heat [effusion] and

dai4 mai4 (girdling vessel) abdominal pain lu2 hui4 (Aloe)..

Governs disease in the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel), counterflow qi and

abdominal urgency ba1 ji3 tian1 (Morindae Officinalis Radix)..

Enters the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel) bing1 lang2 (Arecae

Semen) Governs chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel) counterflow qi and

abdominal urgency wu2 zhu1 yu2 (Evodiae Fructus). Governs chong1

mai4 (thoroughfare vessel) counterflow qi and abdominal urgency dang1

gui1 (Angelicae Sinensis Radix).. Governs chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare

vessel) disease with counterflow qi and abdominal urgency; dai4 mai4 (girdling

vessel) disease with abdominal fullness; broad lumbus as if sitting in water

huang2 bai3 (Phellodendri Cortex).. Governs chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare

vessel) counterflow qi bai2 zhu2 (Atractylodis Macrocephalae Rhizoma)..

Governs chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel) disease, counterflow qi and

abdominal urgency, umbilical and abdominal disease xiang1 fu4

(Cyperi Rhizoma). Enters the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel)

chuan1 xiong1 (Chuanxiong Rhizoma).. Moves in the chong1 mai4

(thoroughfare vessel) huang2 qin2 (Scutellariae Radix).. Moves

in the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel) bie1 jia3 (Trionycis

Carapax).. Moves in the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel) mu4

xiang1 (Aucklandiae Radix). Governs chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel)

disease, counterflow qi and abdominal urgency gou3 qi3 zi3 (Lycii

Fructus).. Supplements essence-blood of the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare

vessel) and du1 mai4 (governing vessel) huang2 qi2 (Astragali

Radix).. Governs yang2 wei2 (yang2 linking vessel) disease with [aversion

to] cold and heat [effusion], and du1 mai4 (governing vessel) disease with

counterflow qi and abdominal urgency cang1 er3 zi3 (Xanthii

Fructus).. Moves in the du1 mai4 (governing vessel) xi4 xin1

(Asari Herba). Governs du1 mai4 (governing vessel) disease, stiffness

of the spine and reversal fu4 zi3 (Aconiti Radix Lateralis Praeparata).

Governs du1 mai4 (governing vessel) disease, stiffness of the spine and

reversal goat (or sheep) spine Frees the du1 mai4 (governing

vessel) bai2 guo3 (Ginkgo Semen).. Frees the du1 mai4

(governing vessel) lu4 jiao3 shuang1 (Cervi Cornu Degelatinatum)..+

Frees qi abiding in the du1 mai4 (governing vessel) lu4 rong2 (Cervi

Cornu Pantotrichum).. Frees the essence chamber of the du1 mai4 (governing

vessel) lu4 jiao3 jiao1 (Cervi Cornus Gelatinum)..+ Warms the

blood of the du1 mai4 (governing vessel) gui1 ban3 (Testudinis

Plastrum).. Frees the ren4 mai4 (controlling vessel) gao3 ben3

(Ligustici Rhizoma).. Governs du1 mai4 (governing vessel) stiffness of

the spine and reversal gui4 zhi1 (Cinnamomi Ramulus).. Moves in

the yang2 wei2 (yang2 linking vessel) fang2 ji3 (Stephaniae

Tetrandrae Radix).. Enters the yang2 qiao1 mai4 (yang2 springing vessel)

rou4 gui4 (Cinnamomi Cortex). Frees the yang2 qiao1 mai4 (yang2

springing vessel) and du1 mai4 (governing vessel) chuan1 shan1 jia3

(Manis Squama).. Enters the yang2 qiao1 mai4 (yang2 springing vessel) and

yin1 qiao1 mai4 (yin2 springing vessel) hu3 gu3 (tiger bone)

Enters the yang2 qiao1 mai4 (yang2 springing vessel) and yin1 qiao1 mai4

(yin2 springing vessel) xu4 duan4 (Dipsaci Radix).. Governs dai4

mai4 (girdling vessel) disease ai4 ye4 (Artemisiae Argyi Folium)..

Governs dai4 mai4 (girdling vessel) disease with abdominal fullness, and broad

lumbus as if sitting in water long2 gu3 (Mastodi Ossis Fossilia)..

Treats dai4 mai4 (girdling vessel) disease wang2 bu4 liu2 xing2

(Vaccariae Semen).. Frees the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel) and ren4

mai4 (controlling vessel) ze2 lan2 (Lycopi Herba).. Regulates

disease damaging the eight [extraordinary] vessels sheng1 ma2

(Cimicifugae Rhizoma).. Relaxes retraction and tension in the dai4 mai4

(girdling vessel) gan1 cao3 (Glycyrrhizae Radix).. Harmonizes

counterflow of the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel), and relaxes tension in the

dai4 mai4 (girdling vessel) dan1 shen1 (Salviae Miltiorrhizae

Radix).. Boosts the chong1 mai4 (thoroughfare vessel) and ren4 mai4

(controlling vessel)

Copyright Paradigm Pubs, all rights reserved.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Oops, lost all the formatting. Second try, should look better.

 

I translated this table for another project, but I thought it was

interesting and worth sharing with the group. It comes from the De

Pei Ben Cao.

 

xiao hui xiang (Foeniculi Fructus). Enters the extraordinary vessels

 

bai shao (Paeoniae Radix Alba).. Governs yang wei (yang linking

vessel) [aversion to] cold and heat [effusion] and dai mai (girdling

vessel) abdominal pain

 

lu hui (Aloe).. Governs disease in the chong mai (thoroughfare

vessel), counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

 

ba ji tian (Morindae Officinalis Radix).. Enters the chong mai

(thoroughfare vessel)

 

bing lang (Arecae Semen) Governs chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

 

wu zhu yu (Evodiae Fructus). Governs chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

 

dang gui (Angelicae Sinensis Radix).. Governs chong mai (thoroughfare

vessel) disease with counterflow qi and abdominal urgency; dai mai

(girdling vessel) disease with abdominal fullness; broad lumbus as if

sitting in water

 

huang bai (Phellodendri Cortex).. Governs chong mai (thoroughfare

vessel) counterflow qi

 

bai zhu (Atractylodis Macrocephalae Rhizoma).. Governs chong mai

(thoroughfare vessel) disease, counterflow qi and abdominal urgency,

umbilical and abdominal disease

 

xiang fu (Cyperi Rhizoma). Enters the chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

 

chuan xiong (Chuanxiong Rhizoma).. Moves in the chong mai

(thoroughfare vessel)

 

huang qin (Scutellariae Radix).. Moves in the chong mai (thoroughfare

vessel)

 

bie jia (Trionycis Carapax).. Moves in the chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

 

mu xiang (Aucklandiae Radix). Governs chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

disease, counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

 

gou qi zi (Lycii Fructus).. Supplements essence-blood of the chong mai

(thoroughfare vessel) and du mai (governing vessel)

 

huang qi (Astragali Radix).. Governs yang wei (yang linking vessel)

disease with [aversion to] cold and heat [effusion], and du mai

(governing vessel) disease with counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

 

cang er zi (Xanthii Fructus).. Moves in the du mai (governing vessel)

 

xi xin (Asari Herba). Governs du mai (governing vessel) disease,

stiffness of the spine and reversal

 

fu zi (Aconiti Radix Lateralis Praeparata). Governs du mai (governing

vessel) disease, stiffness of the spine and reversal

 

goat (or sheep) spine Frees the du mai (governing vessel)

 

bai guo (Ginkgo Semen).. Frees the du mai (governing vessel)

 

lu jiao shuang (Cervi Cornu Degelatinatum).. Frees qi abiding in the

du mai (governing vessel)

 

lu rong (Cervi Cornu Pantotrichum).. Frees the essence chamber of the

du mai (governing vessel)

 

lu jiao jiao (Cervi Cornus Gelatinum). Warms the blood of the du mai

(governing vessel)

 

gui ban (Testudinis Plastrum).. Frees the ren mai (controlling vessel)

 

gao ben (Ligustici Rhizoma).. Governs du mai (governing vessel)

stiffness of the spine and reversal

 

gui zhi (Cinnamomi Ramulus).. Moves in the yang wei (yang linking vessel)

 

fang ji (Stephaniae Tetrandrae Radix).. Enters the yang qiao mai (yang

springing vessel)

 

rou gui (Cinnamomi Cortex). Frees the yang qiao mai (yang springing

vessel) and du mai (governing vessel)

 

chuan shan jia (Manis Squama).. Enters the yang qiao mai (yang

springing vessel) and yin qiao mai (yin springing vessel)

 

hu gu (tiger bone) Enters the yang qiao mai (yang springing vessel)

and yin qiao mai (yin springing vessel)

 

xu duan (Dipsaci Radix).. Governs dai mai (girdling vessel) disease

 

ai ye (Artemisiae Argyi Folium).. Treats dai mai (girdling vessel)

disease with abdominal fullness, and broad lumbus as if sitting in water

 

long gu (Mastodi Ossis Fossilia).. Treats dai mai (girdling vessel)

disease

 

wang bu liu xing (Vaccariae Semen).. Frees the chong mai (thoroughfare

vessel) and ren mai (controlling vessel)

 

ze lan (Lycopi Herba).. Regulates disease damaging the eight

[extraordinary] vessels

 

sheng ma (Cimicifugae Rhizoma).. Relaxes retraction and tension in the

dai mai (girdling vessel)

 

gan cao (Glycyrrhizae Radix).. Harmonizes counterflow of the chong mai

(thoroughfare vessel), and relaxes tension in the dai mai (girdling

vessel)

 

dan shen (Salviae Miltiorrhizae Radix).. Boosts the chong mai

(thoroughfare vessel) and ren mai (controlling vessel)

 

 

Copyright Paradigm Pubs, all rights reserved.

[Guest guest]

Hi Eric, & All,

 

Eric wrote:

> I translated this table for another project, but I thought it was

> interesting and worth sharing with the group. It comes from the De

> Pei Ben Cao.

 

Many thanks for the useful data, Eric.

 

Have we no herbs that enter / aid the Yinweimai?

 

Assuming that Listers know that the Bamai-8 Extraordinary Vessels are:

Dumai-Governing Vessel (GV),

Renmai-Conception Vessel (CV),

Chongmai-Penetrating Vessel,

Daimai-Belt (Girdling) Vessel,

Yangqiaomai-Yang Heel (Springing) Vessel,

Yinqiaomai-Yin Heel (Springing) Vessel,

Yangweimai-Yang Linking Vessel,

Yinweimai-Yin Linking Vessel,

 

here follows an edited, shorter, version of your data. It can be converted

to a sortable table by using the | character as a field separator:

 

Aiye | Fm Artemisiae Argyi | Govern Daimai disease w abdomen

fullness, & broad loin as if sitting in water

Baiguo | S Ginkgo | Free GV

Baishao | Rx Paeoniae Alba | Govern Yangweimai [aversion to] cold &

heat [effusion] & Daimai abdomen pain

Baizhu | Rz Atractylodis Macrocephalae | Govern Chongmai disease, Qi

Counterflow & abdomen urgency, umbilical & abdomen disease

Bajitian | Rx Morindae Officinalis | Enter Chongmai

Biejia | Carapax Trionycis | Move in Chongmai

Binglang | S Arecae | Govern Chongmai Qi Counterflow & abdomen

urgency

Cangerzi | Fr Xanthii | Move in GV

Chuanshanjia | Squama Manitis Pentadactylae | Enter Yangqiaomai &

Yinqiaomai

Chuanxiong | Rz Chuanxiong | Move in Chongmai

Danggui | Rx Angelicae Sinensis | Govern Chongmai disease w Qi

Counterflow & abdomen urgency & Daimai dsease w abdomen fullness;

broad loin as if sitting in water

Danshen | Rx Salviae Miltiorrhizae | Boost Chongmai & Renmai-CV

Fangji | Rx Stephaniae Tetrandrae | Enter Yangqiaomai

Fuzi | Rx Aconiti Lateralis Prep | Govern GV, spine stiffness & reversal,

goat/sheep spine & Free GV

Gancao | Rx Glycyrrhizae | Harmonize Chongmai counterflow & relax

Daimai tension

Gaoben | Rz Ligustici | Govern GV, spine stiffness & reversal

Gouqizi | Fr Lycii | Supplement Chongmai & GV Jing-Xue

Guiban | Plastrum Testudinis | Free CV

Guizhi | Rml Cinnamomi | Move in Yangweimai

Huangbai | Cx Phellodendri | Govern Chongmai Qi Counterflow

Huangqi | Rx Astragali | Govern Yangweimai disease w [aversion to]

cold & heat [effusion], & GV disease w Qi Counterflow & abdomen

urgency

Huangqin | Rx Scutellariae | Move in Chongmai

Hugu | Os Tigris | Enter Yangqiaomai & Yinqiaomai

Longgu | Fossilia Mastodi Ossis | Treat Daimai disease

Luhui | Hb Aloe | Govern Chongmai disease w Qi Counterflow &

abdomen urgency

Lujiaojiao | Cornus Cervi Gelatinum | Warm GV Xue

Lujiaoshuang | Cornu Cervi Degelatinatum | Free GV Qi

Lurong | Cornu Cervi Pantotrichum | Free GV Jing Chamber

Muxiang | Rx Aucklandiae | Govern Chongmai Qi Counterflow &

abdomen urgency

Rougui | Cx Cinnamomi | Free Yangqiaomai & GV

Shengma | Rz Cimicifugae | Relax Daimai retraction & tension

Wangbuliuxing | S Vaccariae | Free Chongmai & CV

Wuzhuyu | Fr Evodiae | Govern Chongmai Qi Counterflow & abdomen

urgency

Xiangfu | Rz Cyperi | Enter Chongmai

Xiaohuixiang | Fr Foeniculi | Enter Bamai-8 Extraordinary Vessels

Xixin | Hb Asari | Govern GV disease, spine stiffness & reversal

Xuduan | Rx Dipsaci | Govern Daimai disease

Zelan | Hb Lycopi | Regulate Bamai-8 Extraordinary Vessels disease

 

Best regards,

 

Email: <

 

WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

 

HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland

Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0]

WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm

 

Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt

man doing it "

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@e...> wrote:

 

> Have we no herbs that enter / aid the Yinweimai?

 

Well, this is just a single source text. Other sources would

certainly contain more information. I got the excerpt from a

gynecology textbook, so the editors may have selected a source text

with more gyn relevance (notice how many of the drugs listed affect

the chong vessel). Furthermore, the original source text is missing

data in certain spots, for example, cang zhu is listed but its data is

missing from the original book that they dug up.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Eric,

 

Interesting translation. However, I'd caution younger/newer CHA

members not to make too much of this material. I think this is an area

where the distinction between acupuncture and internal medicine comes

into play. I think the eight extraoridinary vessels are more of an

acupuncture theory. As early as Li Shi-zhen (and perhaps earlier),

there have been attempts to use this theory herbally. But, bottom

line, the majority of Chinese doctors have not found this approach to

be particulary useful in clinical practice. In other words, this info

does not necessarily improve one's therapeutic effects.

 

As a teacher, I often find newer/younger practitioners are erroneously

fascinated by and frequently over-use the eight extraordinary vessels.

Partly, I think this has to do with a misunderstanding of the word

" extraordinary. " In English, this word can mean extraordinary in the

sense of extraordinarily effect or extraordinarily special. However,

when used by most Chinese in terms of these vessels, this word is

explained as meaning different from the 12 regular or ordinary vessels

in that these eight vessels are not paired interiorly/exteriorly. In

other words, the lung and large intestine regular or ordinary channels

have an interior/exterior relationship, while the chong mai has no

such paired interior/exterior vessel. Thus it is unique, unusual,

extraordinary. From this point of view, the eight extraordinary

vessels are not more potent or powerful. They are simply another set

of channels and vessels which have their own trajectories and

symptom/signs.

 

It is significant that this translation came from a gynecological

context. When discussing the role of channels and vessels in standard

Chinese gynecology texts, most authors say that the governing vessel,

conception vessel, chong mai, and dai mai are the four of the eight

extraoridinary vessels which are important in gynecology. Depending on

the context, it can be said that the governing vessel and conception

or the conception vessel and chong mai govern the menstrual cycle in

general. But, once that being said, no further clinical use is made of

these statements in terms of herbal treatment. Likewise, it is said

that the dai mai is associated with all forms of abnormal vaginal

discharge, but then no further use is made of this statement in terms

of herbal treatment.

 

All of this, I think, underscores the difference between the practice

of acupuncture and the practice of herbal medicine.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Eric

 

Thank you very much for that information and for your reply last week regarding

the strange ascendance of " camp qi " .

 

What is the gynecology text that the 8 Extras herb info comes from?

 

respectfully,

Jason Robertson

 

 

 

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Jason Robertson

<kentuckyginseng> wrote:

 

> What is the gynecology text that the 8 Extras herb info comes from?

 

It's original source is the de pei ben cao (de as in de qi, pei as in

pei yao). It is quoted in the ren min wei sheng (People's Medical

Publishing House) fu ke xue (gynecology text), on pg 1486. The big

yellow hardback book.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

but I agree with Bob's warning to new students not to

devour anything simply because someone is serving it up.

>>>>>>

The majority of 8 extra work these days comes from modern Japanese therapist

(acup and some herbs). While i agree with Bob, i.e., there is nothing

extraordinary, we cant just discount some of the newer work

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001>

wrote:

>

> Eric,

>

> Interesting translation. However, I'd caution younger/newer CHA

> members not to make too much of this material. I think this is an area

> where the distinction between acupuncture and internal medicine comes

> into play. I think the eight extraoridinary vessels are more of an

> acupuncture theory. As early as Li Shi-zhen (and perhaps earlier),

> there have been attempts to use this theory herbally. But, bottom

> line, the majority of Chinese doctors have not found this approach to

> be particulary useful in clinical practice. In other words, this info

> does not necessarily improve one's therapeutic effects.

>

> As a teacher, I often find newer/younger practitioners are erroneously

> fascinated by and frequently over-use the eight extraordinary vessels.

> Partly, I think this has to do with a misunderstanding of the word

> " extraordinary. " In English, this word can mean extraordinary in the

> sense of extraordinarily effect or extraordinarily special. However,

> when used by most Chinese in terms of these vessels, this word is

> explained as meaning different from the 12 regular or ordinary vessels

> in that these eight vessels are not paired interiorly/exteriorly. In

> other words, the lung and large intestine regular or ordinary channels

> have an interior/exterior relationship, while the chong mai has no

> such paired interior/exterior vessel. Thus it is unique, unusual,

> extraordinary. From this point of view, the eight extraordinary

> vessels are not more potent or powerful. They are simply another set

> of channels and vessels which have their own trajectories and

> symptom/signs.

>

> It is significant that this translation came from a gynecological

> context. When discussing the role of channels and vessels in standard

> Chinese gynecology texts, most authors say that the governing vessel,

> conception vessel, chong mai, and dai mai are the four of the eight

> extraoridinary vessels which are important in gynecology. Depending on

> the context, it can be said that the governing vessel and conception

> or the conception vessel and chong mai govern the menstrual cycle in

> general. But, once that being said, no further clinical use is made of

> these statements in terms of herbal treatment. Likewise, it is said

> that the dai mai is associated with all forms of abnormal vaginal

> discharge, but then no further use is made of this statement in terms

> of herbal treatment.

>

> All of this, I think, underscores the difference between the practice

> of acupuncture and the practice of herbal medicine.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

" This is a very interesting point. All the gynecology textbooks have

a section early on regarding disease causes and pathomechanisms. This

section invariably has a discussion that looks at gyn disease through

the lenses of: bowel and visceral theory, qi and blood, chong & ren

(du & dai), and sometimes tian-gui. However, despite a lengthy

theoretical discussion at the beginning, the body of the book simply

goes on to practical clinical treatments. The various traditional ( &

modern) diseases are presented and then further broken down into

patterns, which then have corresponding treatments. So while the

conceptual basis of basically all gyn diseases can be looked at

through the lens of the chong, ren, du, and dai channels, the actual

therapy and diagnostic focus is centered upon bowel and visceral

therapy. "

 

Exactly.

 

" It is also worth mentioning that acupuncture is rarely listed as even

an auxiliary treatment for most of the diseases in a gynecology

textbook. All the treatments are based on medicinal therapy, and even

the few entries that have supplemental acupuncture treatments spelled

out often recommend the same treatment regardless of pattern. "

 

Also exactly true in my experience as well.

 

Bowel and visceral theory is highly developed in comparison with the

channel theories (chong, ren, du, dai) in gyn textbooks. This is

probably due to the fact that TCM physiology is derived from observing

pathology and the response to medicinal treatment.

 

" I thought it was worth posting for fun. "

 

And it was.

 

" People eat up this type of information, but I agree with Bob's

warning to new students not to devour anything simply because someone

is serving it up. "

 

Thanks.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

(sorry about that last non-post)

Yeah, well, of course one shouldn't go overboard with 8 extras but I have often

seen my

more classically trained Chinese colleagues refer to the 8 extra properties of

the herbs. I

have a few lists from them and they all seem to line up. As to whether they are

useful

again its how they are applied. It may be that while the Ren, du and Chong

certainly are

" internal medicine " the more external aspects of the Wei and qiao do not lend

themselves

to herbs as much as acupuncture. just a thought.

doug

 

 

, " " wrote:

>

> , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001>

wrote:

> >

> > Eric,

> >

> > Interesting translation. However, I'd caution younger/newer CHA

> > members not to make too much of this material. I think this is an area

> > where the distinction between acupuncture and internal medicine comes

> > into play. I think the eight extraoridinary vessels are more of an

> > acupuncture theory. As early as Li Shi-zhen (and perhaps earlier),

> > there have been attempts to use this theory herbally. But, bottom

> > line, the majority of Chinese doctors have not found this approach to

> > be particulary useful in clinical practice. In other words, this info

> > does not necessarily improve one's therapeutic effects.

> >

> > As a teacher, I often find newer/younger practitioners are erroneously

> > fascinated by and frequently over-use the eight extraordinary vessels.

> > Partly, I think this has to do with a misunderstanding of the word

> > " extraordinary. " In English, this word can mean extraordinary in the

> > sense of extraordinarily effect or extraordinarily special. However,

> > when used by most Chinese in terms of these vessels, this word is

> > explained as meaning different from the 12 regular or ordinary vessels

> > in that these eight vessels are not paired interiorly/exteriorly. In

> > other words, the lung and large intestine regular or ordinary channels

> > have an interior/exterior relationship, while the chong mai has no

> > such paired interior/exterior vessel. Thus it is unique, unusual,

> > extraordinary. From this point of view, the eight extraordinary

> > vessels are not more potent or powerful. They are simply another set

> > of channels and vessels which have their own trajectories and

> > symptom/signs.

> >

> > It is significant that this translation came from a gynecological

> > context. When discussing the role of channels and vessels in standard

> > Chinese gynecology texts, most authors say that the governing vessel,

> > conception vessel, chong mai, and dai mai are the four of the eight

> > extraoridinary vessels which are important in gynecology. Depending on

> > the context, it can be said that the governing vessel and conception

> > or the conception vessel and chong mai govern the menstrual cycle in

> > general. But, once that being said, no further clinical use is made of

> > these statements in terms of herbal treatment. Likewise, it is said

> > that the dai mai is associated with all forms of abnormal vaginal

> > discharge, but then no further use is made of this statement in terms

> > of herbal treatment.

> >

> > All of this, I think, underscores the difference between the practice

> > of acupuncture and the practice of herbal medicine.

> >

> > Bob

> >

>

[Guest guest]

As an example of that " newer work, " I believe Miki Shima was/is

translating Li Shi-zhen's monograph on the herbal use of the eight

extraordinary vessels. However, I believe it is still significant that

Li's Qi Qing Ba Mai Kao has not been held in great respect by the

succeeding 400 years of Chinese doctors. If it was really good and

useful stuff in clinic, I believe they would be using it. After all,

they still use his Bin Hu Mai Xue (The Lakeside Master's Study of the

Pulse) in nevery day clinical practice. In my experience, some of the

contemporary Japanese practitioners are pretty far out there. When it

comes to acupuncture, that may not matter so much. When it comes to

internal medicine, it may matter more. However, we've been over that

territory before on this list.

 

Bob

 

, " "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> but I agree with Bob's warning to new students not to

> devour anything simply because someone is serving it up.

> >>>>>>

> The majority of 8 extra work these days comes from modern Japanese

therapist (acup and some herbs). While i agree with Bob, i.e., there

is nothing extraordinary, we cant just discount some of the newer work

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

some of the

contemporary Japanese practitioners are pretty far out there.

>>>>>

Bob, i agree, from using o-ring to Iria tests.Iria however has a whole system of

8 extra uses of classical formulas. While i played with it for a short time i

cannot truly make any comment,ie is it truly clinically useful.It is interesting

however

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

For example to use yang qiao medicines to treat tense muscles on the lateral

side of legs

>>>>

I have but because the functions of these can also be explained by other more

standard ideas i cannot comment of the specificity.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Oct 12, 2005, at 1:08 PM, Eric Brand wrote:

> I just translated it

> because it was fast, easy, and novel.  The only other mention I have

> seen of this topic in English is a simple, vague little list, so I

> thought it was worth posting for fun.  People eat up this type of

> information, but I agree with Bob's warning to new students not to

> devour anything simply because someone is serving it up. 

--

 

Eric, Bob, et al,

 

I seem to remember that one of the people " serving it up " is Giovani

Maciocia. I don't have his book on gyn/obs, but remember looking at it

once, and noticing a rather long section on the 8 extra's related to

female physiology. I don't know but suspect that he categorizes herbal

treatments based on this theory.

 

Anyhow, in it's defense, I have a slightly different take on the

usefulness of this theory, and the list of medicinals. Bob says that it

has not been much used or respected in recent centuries. Nevertheless,

what Eric's list of herbs can do, and what the theory behind it can do,

is create a specific category of theory and treatment based on it, that

is not simply in the language of zangfu. I don't really think zangfu

has any more " reality " than chong/ren theory, does it? I think the

value of chong/ren theory in gyn/obs is that it puts the reader on

notice that we are not simply talking about the kidney, spleen, liver

and heart, but a special case of these things, that should have a

specific approach in terms of herbal treatment; ie not just any

medicinals, but specific ones. And, about these specific medicinals,

whatever else you know about them, and their uses, here is how they act

with respect to this specific category of disorders. Ie, having such a

list creates a useful focus, and memory aid.

 

Of course, the above is true only to the extent that Eric's list, and

the theory it seems to be based on, is truly useful, and does not

restrict one's options.

 

Rory

 

 

[Guest guest]

chong/ren theory

>>>Chong ren are also mentioned very often in female bleeding disorders and

herbs are used for this

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On 10/12/05, Heiko Lade <heikolade.acnm wrote:

>

> Actually I have been wanting to ask if any people on the list or if they

> know of anyone who uses the herbs that travel to the 8 extras to treat 8

> extra type symptoms or use them as carrier medicines to go there.

 

 

There's a list of herbs that enter the 8 extras somewhere at

acupuncture.com<http://acupuncture.com>.

It comes from a seminar that Tiande Yang gave about ten years ago. I'll be

working with him this Tuesday, perhaps Doug and I can ask him about this.

 

To me this similar to the Worsley spirit of the point idea. I am somewhat

> interested as well as concerned about the spirit of the herbs stuff that I

> have read, Eg ba dou to purge yourself of an obsessional relationship. It

> might work, but you probably will die in the process.

 

 

Well said. I once wrote an article on this subject which is still

somewhere at acupuncture.com <http://acupuncture.com>. When I wrote it I was

still an undergrad and quite attached to the idea that we can treat through

metaphor. The article on Ba Dou there is a little musing on my part.

Hopefully its not generating too much use of Ba Dou for releasing

demons/attachments.

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon

Can you give us any other examples of using 8 extra herbs and specific

complaints

Heiko Lade

M.H.Sc.(TCM)

Lecturer and clinic supervisor

Auckland College of Natural Medicine

Website: www.acnm.co.nz

 

 

 

-

Thursday, October 13, 2005 12:34 PM

Re: Re: Medicinals that affect the extraordinary channels

 

 

For example to use yang qiao medicines to treat tense muscles on the lateral

side of legs

>>>>

I have but because the functions of these can also be explained by other more

standard ideas i cannot comment of the specificity.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

[Guest guest]

Al

Yes please ask Tiande , I would be interested

 

Heiko Lade

M.H.Sc.(TCM)

Lecturer and clinic supervisor

Auckland College of Natural Medicine

Website: www.acnm.co.nz

 

 

 

-

Al Stone

Thursday, October 13, 2005 4:06 PM

Re: Re: Medicinals that affect the extraordinary channels

 

 

On 10/12/05, Heiko Lade <heikolade.acnm wrote:

>

> Actually I have been wanting to ask if any people on the list or if they

> know of anyone who uses the herbs that travel to the 8 extras to treat 8

> extra type symptoms or use them as carrier medicines to go there.

 

 

There's a list of herbs that enter the 8 extras somewhere at

acupuncture.com<http://acupuncture.com>.

It comes from a seminar that Tiande Yang gave about ten years ago. I'll be

working with him this Tuesday, perhaps Doug and I can ask him about this.

 

To me this similar to the Worsley spirit of the point idea. I am somewhat

> interested as well as concerned about the spirit of the herbs stuff that I

> have read, Eg ba dou to purge yourself of an obsessional relationship. It

> might work, but you probably will die in the process.

 

 

Well said. I once wrote an article on this subject which is still

somewhere at acupuncture.com <http://acupuncture.com>. When I wrote it I was

still an undergrad and quite attached to the idea that we can treat through

metaphor. The article on Ba Dou there is a little musing on my part.

Hopefully its not generating too much use of Ba Dou for releasing

demons/attachments.

 

--

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Can you give us any other examples of using 8 extra herbs and specific

complaints

>>>>>

First i like to preface by saying that i am not sure the clinical responses i

have seen really have anything to do with 8 extra.

But for example, for people with weak abdominals and tight and painful spinal

extensoris with low back pain can be related in some Japanese acupuncture

systems to Ren, Du and Dai. i have used herbs that treat the Ren, Du and Dai

such as (Du: lu rong, fu zi, rou gui, zi xin, gou qi zi hunag qi, Ren: Di

Huang, Gui Ban, Zi He Che, Dan Shen, Dai: wu wei zi, xu duan, dang qui, San Yao)

even when there is no zhong fu s/s relating to K or Liv def or Cold which these

herbs can address. Some patients seemed to respond, but i never used the herbs

on their own, and i never used controls.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Eric

 

Thanks for that reference

 

Jason

 

 

, " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus> wrote:

>

> , Jason Robertson

> <kentuckyginseng> wrote:

>

> > What is the gynecology text that the 8 Extras herb info comes from?

>

> It's original source is the de pei ben cao (de as in de qi, pei as in

> pei yao). It is quoted in the ren min wei sheng (People's Medical

> Publishing House) fu ke xue (gynecology text), on pg 1486. The big

> yellow hardback book.

>

> Eric

>

[Guest guest]

Here is a post from Chip Chace:

 

 

The recent CHA discussion regarding the application of the extraordinary

vessels (EV) in herbal medicine has been based largely on the premise that

the treatment is defined by the administration of drugs believed to enter

one or more of the EVs. The general consensus has been that such an approach

is of limited value in the modern practice of Chinese herbal medicine. I

agree completely. That is not to say, however, that EV treatment strategies

are completely without merit.

 

I think it's important to remember that treating the extraordinary vessels

in terms of individual herbs is, although popular, only one way of thinking

about them. Moreover, it is probably the least useful of the approaches

available to us. I believe that the real value of an extraordinary vessel

diagnosis lies in its potential as an organizing principle for an overall

treatment strategy that may encompass acupuncture and herbal medicine, and

possibly other modalities. It's about the pattern, not the herb. Focusing on

individual herbs in EV therapeutics ultimately distracts from this.

 

If we look at how the extraordinary vessels were first really articulated in

herbal therapy by Zhang Jie-Gu and Li Shi-Zhen, extraordinary vessel

pathodynamics were invariably linked to an entire herbal formula. For

instance, many of the formulas that treat chills and fever such as

guizhitang and mahuangtang were considered yangwei vessel formulas. Nearly

any formula that treated counterflow occurring in 2 or more burners was

linked to the chong. Even here, the emphasis was on the pathodynamic, not

the formula per se. Li was himself critical of Zhang for failing to see the

larger implications of his own idea. Ultimately, Li was responsible for

most fully developing this kind of thinking and he took it in some

interesting directions.

 

From this perspective, an EV diagnosis helps to place potentially complex

pathodynamics in a manageable conceptual framework. That's not to say that

an EV diagnosis eliminates the need for more specific kinds of diagnoses,

only that it can provide a meta-diagnosis, a box in which the specifics fit

neatly. Sometimes this is very helpful. Certainly, it has the potential for

integrating acupuncture and herbal strategies and for creating a conceptual

bridge that allows them to inform one another. Often, such a diagnosis is

completely irrelevant. Just like any other model in Chinese medicine, the

knack is in knowing when to use it.

 

The link between acupuncture and herbal therapy is actually very well

articulated in the Qi Jing Ba Mai Kao, which draws from herbal medicine,

acupuncture and alchemy. Contrary to the contention that herbal and

acupuncture applications of the EVs are fundamentally different, Li Shi-Zhen

clearly views them as interrelated. Moreover, from Li's perspective it's a

mistake to view them as independent strands, and he explicitly intends for

them to inform one another. This is yet another aspect of the potential

value of the EVs as organizing principles. That said, it is not simply a

matter of identifying all counterflow patterns as chong vessel pathologies

and plugging in Sp4-and P-6. Li's approach is far more nuanced than that.

 

Li certainly mentions individual herbs as entering the EVs in his Ben Cao

Gang Mu, but in his Qi Jing Ba Mai Kao where we get clearer clues as to how

to use herbs in an EV context, we see that he's more interested in the big

picture. Since the EVs cover more clinical ground than the primary channels,

its no surprise that no one herb could encompass the full scope of an EV

pathodynmic, hence the emphasis on formulas . Curiously, many of the key

herbs Li mentions as entering the EVs in his Ben Cao Gang Mu are completely

absent from the Ba Mai Kao. In the latter book, (with the exception of the

du vessel) he is clearly focused on broad pathodynamics. At very least, we

can say that Li and Zhang were more interested in the pathodynamics or an EV

pattern than the specific herbs used to treat it.

 

When we get to Ye Gui, whose case records give us a more concrete idea of

how pre-modern physicians used the EVs, he seems at first glance to simply

be throwing lots of essence-nourishing animal products in his formulas and

calling them EV prescriptions, as if its all about kidney supplementation.

It is precisely these animal products that appear in the Ben Cao Gang Mu and

not in the Qi JIng Ba Mai Kao. Ye's interpreters latched onto this and the

writings attributed to Ye are probably most responsible for popularizing the

notion of individual EV herbs. When one really analyzes what Ye is doing,

however, a couple of things become apparent. First, he's looking at the EV

system as an integrated whole. He rarely identifies a pathology in a single

EV, and his most common EV diagnosis is of a generalized weakness in all the

EVs. He nevertheless remains focused on discerning the most appropriate of

many possible treatment strategies to address the presenting pattern and he

is famous for his versatility in this area. His use of individual herbs or

formulas is really a secondary expression of that. Ye certainly had some

ideas about what kind of herbs entered the EVs but it's a mistake to think

that this was the central thrust of his message. A careful analysis of his

formulas reveal that his approach is simply a logical extension of this

focus on EV pathodynamics that goes back to Zhang Jie-gu.

 

I think that a major reason that we don't see EV diagnoses used much in

herbal practice is that both the English and the Chinese literature has

reduced the discussion to the administration of individual herbs. This

perspective has its uses, but it fundamentally distorts our thinking about

the EVs. Even when we make an EV pattern diagnosis we are compelled to

filter it through our selection from a list of herbs (or formulas) that

ostensibly enter the EVs. We end up asking ourselves how often our clinical

outcomes are better because we've made an EV diagnosis and duly included an

appropriate herb from the such a list. The answer is probably not very

often, but maybe that's the wrong question.

 

A better question might be, how useful is it to use an EV diagnosis as a

means of organizing, prioritizing and executing an overall treatment

strategy? In my experience, the answer is more often than when the question

is posed in the previous way. Often enough that its worth learning and

using. The Ev diagnosis doesn't necessarily guide us to an acupuncture

point, herb, or even a formula but it has the potential for guiding how our

overall methodology all hangs together. This is certainly helpful for those

of us practicing more than just herbal medicine.

 

I'm not suggesting that we need to be identifying EV meta-patterns for all

of our patients. Personally, I've only found it helpful in complex clinical

presentations where there's a laundry list of identifiable zang fu (ZF)

patterns and it serves to clarify the overarching pathodynamics involved.

When things get messy, it often helps to think big and think simply.

Contrary to how they are often presented in modern textbooks, EV diagnoses

are historically defined by their involvement of multiple ZF patterns and by

mixed excess and deficiency presentations. Thus, they fit the bill for

organizing cluttered clinical landscapes. The application in herbal medicine

is by no means limited to gynecological diseases. An EV diagnois can help

keep us from fixating on a single aspect of a ZF pattern, or conversely,

from trying to hit every base of a complex ZF presentation. In the right

circumstances, attending to both the meta-pattern and the particulars is

superior to focusing solely on a zang fu pattern alone.

 

Cheers,

 

Chip Chace

 

 

 

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> Wednesday, October 12, 2005 1:20 AM

>

> Re: Medicinals that affect the extraordinary channels

>

> Oops, lost all the formatting. Second try, should look better.

>

> I translated this table for another project, but I thought it was

> interesting and worth sharing with the group. It comes from the De

> Pei Ben Cao.

>

> xiao hui xiang (Foeniculi Fructus). Enters the extraordinary vessels

>

> bai shao (Paeoniae Radix Alba).. Governs yang wei (yang linking

> vessel) [aversion to] cold and heat [effusion] and dai mai (girdling

> vessel) abdominal pain

>

> lu hui (Aloe).. Governs disease in the chong mai (thoroughfare

> vessel), counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

>

> ba ji tian (Morindae Officinalis Radix).. Enters the chong mai

> (thoroughfare vessel)

>

> bing lang (Arecae Semen) Governs chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

> counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

>

> wu zhu yu (Evodiae Fructus). Governs chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

> counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

>

> dang gui (Angelicae Sinensis Radix).. Governs chong mai (thoroughfare

> vessel) disease with counterflow qi and abdominal urgency; dai mai

> (girdling vessel) disease with abdominal fullness; broad lumbus as if

> sitting in water

>

> huang bai (Phellodendri Cortex).. Governs chong mai (thoroughfare

> vessel) counterflow qi

>

> bai zhu (Atractylodis Macrocephalae Rhizoma).. Governs chong mai

> (thoroughfare vessel) disease, counterflow qi and abdominal urgency,

> umbilical and abdominal disease

>

> xiang fu (Cyperi Rhizoma). Enters the chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

>

> chuan xiong (Chuanxiong Rhizoma).. Moves in the chong mai

> (thoroughfare vessel)

>

> huang qin (Scutellariae Radix).. Moves in the chong mai (thoroughfare

> vessel)

>

> bie jia (Trionycis Carapax).. Moves in the chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

>

> mu xiang (Aucklandiae Radix). Governs chong mai (thoroughfare vessel)

> disease, counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

>

> gou qi zi (Lycii Fructus).. Supplements essence-blood of the chong mai

> (thoroughfare vessel) and du mai (governing vessel)

>

> huang qi (Astragali Radix).. Governs yang wei (yang linking vessel)

> disease with [aversion to] cold and heat [effusion], and du mai

> (governing vessel) disease with counterflow qi and abdominal urgency

>

> cang er zi (Xanthii Fructus).. Moves in the du mai (governing vessel)

>

> xi xin (Asari Herba). Governs du mai (governing vessel) disease,

> stiffness of the spine and reversal

>

> fu zi (Aconiti Radix Lateralis Praeparata). Governs du mai (governing

> vessel) disease, stiffness of the spine and reversal

>

> goat (or sheep) spine Frees the du mai (governing vessel)

>

> bai guo (Ginkgo Semen).. Frees the du mai (governing vessel)

>

> lu jiao shuang (Cervi Cornu Degelatinatum).. Frees qi abiding in the

> du mai (governing vessel)

>

> lu rong (Cervi Cornu Pantotrichum).. Frees the essence chamber of the

> du mai (governing vessel)

>

> lu jiao jiao (Cervi Cornus Gelatinum). Warms the blood of the du mai

> (governing vessel)

>

> gui ban (Testudinis Plastrum).. Frees the ren mai (controlling vessel)

>

> gao ben (Ligustici Rhizoma).. Governs du mai (governing vessel)

> stiffness of the spine and reversal

>

> gui zhi (Cinnamomi Ramulus).. Moves in the yang wei (yang linking vessel)

>

> fang ji (Stephaniae Tetrandrae Radix).. Enters the yang qiao mai (yang

> springing vessel)

>

> rou gui (Cinnamomi Cortex). Frees the yang qiao mai (yang springing

> vessel) and du mai (governing vessel)

>

> chuan shan jia (Manis Squama).. Enters the yang qiao mai (yang

> springing vessel) and yin qiao mai (yin springing vessel)

>

> hu gu (tiger bone) Enters the yang qiao mai (yang springing vessel)

> and yin qiao mai (yin springing vessel)

>

> xu duan (Dipsaci Radix).. Governs dai mai (girdling vessel) disease

>

> ai ye (Artemisiae Argyi Folium).. Treats dai mai (girdling vessel)

> disease with abdominal fullness, and broad lumbus as if sitting in water

>

> long gu (Mastodi Ossis Fossilia).. Treats dai mai (girdling vessel)

> disease

>

> wang bu liu xing (Vaccariae Semen).. Frees the chong mai (thoroughfare

> vessel) and ren mai (controlling vessel)

>

> ze lan (Lycopi Herba).. Regulates disease damaging the eight

> [extraordinary] vessels

>

> sheng ma (Cimicifugae Rhizoma).. Relaxes retraction and tension in the

> dai mai (girdling vessel)

>

> gan cao (Glycyrrhizae Radix).. Harmonizes counterflow of the chong mai

> (thoroughfare vessel), and relaxes tension in the dai mai (girdling

> vessel)

>

> dan shen (Salviae Miltiorrhizae Radix).. Boosts the chong mai

> (thoroughfare vessel) and ren mai (controlling vessel)

>

>

> Copyright Paradigm Pubs, all rights reserved.

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry for the late response. Just finishing the Jewish holidays.

 

I agree with Chip. The real power of the extraordinary vessel model

is in its integration of the practice of acupuncture and herbal

medicine. While I know that the focus of CHA tends to be more in the

direction of the separation of the practice of the two, and I

understand how focusing on one or the other can make sense, a

majority of practitioners in the West do practice both. Therefore,

models such as this serve an important purpose, along with the Li

Dongyuan acupuncture model and the modern Ikeda Masakazu model.

 

 

On Oct 19, 2005, at 8:10 PM, wrote:

 

> Here is a post from Chip Chace:

>

>

>

> If we look at how the extraordinary vessels were first really

> articulated in

> herbal therapy by Zhang Jie-Gu and Li Shi-Zhen, extraordinary vessel

> pathodynamics were invariably linked to an entire herbal formula. For

> instance, many of the formulas that treat chills and fever such as

> guizhitang and mahuangtang were considered yangwei vessel formulas.

> Nearly

> any formula that treated counterflow occurring in 2 or more burners

> was

> linked to the chong. Even here, the emphasis was on the

> pathodynamic, not

> the formula per se. Li was himself critical of Zhang for failing to

> see the

> larger implications of his own idea. Ultimately, Li was

> responsible for

> most fully developing this kind of thinking and he took it in some

> interesting directions.

>

> From this perspective, an EV diagnosis helps to place potentially

> complex

> pathodynamics in a manageable conceptual framework. That's not to

> say that

> an EV diagnosis eliminates the need for more specific kinds of

> diagnoses,

> only that it can provide a meta-diagnosis, a box in which the

> specifics fit

> neatly. Sometimes this is very helpful. Certainly, it has the

> potential for

> integrating acupuncture and herbal strategies and for creating a

> conceptual

> bridge that allows them to inform one another. Often, such a

> diagnosis is

> completely irrelevant. Just like any other model in Chinese

> medicine, the

> knack is in knowing when to use it.

>

> The link between acupuncture and herbal therapy is actually very well

> articulated in the Qi Jing Ba Mai Kao, which draws from herbal

> medicine,

> acupuncture and alchemy. Contrary to the contention that herbal and

> acupuncture applications of the EVs are fundamentally different, Li

> Shi-Zhen

> clearly views them as interrelated. Moreover, from Li's perspective

> it's a

> mistake to view them as independent strands, and he explicitly

> intends for

> them to inform one another. This is yet another aspect of the

> potential

> value of the EVs as organizing principles. That said, it is not

> simply a

> matter of identifying all counterflow patterns as chong vessel

> pathologies

> and plugging in Sp4-and P-6. Li's approach is far more nuanced

> than that.

>

> Li certainly mentions individual herbs as entering the EVs in his

> Ben Cao

> Gang Mu, but in his Qi Jing Ba Mai Kao where we get clearer clues

> as to how

> to use herbs in an EV context, we see that he's more interested in

> the big

> picture. Since the EVs cover more clinical ground than the primary

> channels,

> its no surprise that no one herb could encompass the full scope of

> an EV

> pathodynmic, hence the emphasis on formulas . Curiously, many of

> the key

> herbs Li mentions as entering the EVs in his Ben Cao Gang Mu are

> completely

> absent from the Ba Mai Kao. In the latter book, (with the exception

> of the

> du vessel) he is clearly focused on broad pathodynamics. At very

> least, we

> can say that Li and Zhang were more interested in the pathodynamics

> or an EV

> pattern than the specific herbs used to treat it.

>

> I think that a major reason that we don't see EV diagnoses used

> much in

> herbal practice is that both the English and the Chinese literature

> has

> reduced the discussion to the administration of individual herbs. This

> perspective has its uses, but it fundamentally distorts our

> thinking about

> the EVs. Even when we make an EV pattern diagnosis we are compelled to

> filter it through our selection from a list of herbs (or formulas)

> that

> ostensibly enter the EVs. We end up asking ourselves how often our

> clinical

> outcomes are better because we've made an EV diagnosis and duly

> included an

> appropriate herb from the such a list. The answer is probably not very

> often, but maybe that's the wrong question.

>

> A better question might be, how useful is it to use an EV diagnosis

> as a

> means of organizing, prioritizing and executing an overall treatment

> strategy? In my experience, the answer is more often than when the

> question

> is posed in the previous way. Often enough that its worth learning and

> using. The Ev diagnosis doesn't necessarily guide us to an acupuncture

> point, herb, or even a formula but it has the potential for guiding

> how our

> overall methodology all hangs together. This is certainly helpful

> for those

> of us practicing more than just herbal medicine.

>

> I'm not suggesting that we need to be identifying EV meta-patterns

> for all

> of our patients. Personally, I've only found it helpful in complex

> clinical

> presentations where there's a laundry list of identifiable zang fu

> (ZF)

> patterns and it serves to clarify the overarching pathodynamics

> involved.

> When things get messy, it often helps to think big and think simply.

> Contrary to how they are often presented in modern textbooks, EV

> diagnoses

> are historically defined by their involvement of multiple ZF

> patterns and by

> mixed excess and deficiency presentations. Thus, they fit the bill for

> organizing cluttered clinical landscapes. The application in herbal

> medicine

> is by no means limited to gynecological diseases. An EV diagnois

> can help

> keep us from fixating on a single aspect of a ZF pattern, or

> conversely,

> from trying to hit every base of a complex ZF presentation. In the

> right

> circumstances, attending to both the meta-pattern and the

> particulars is

> superior to focusing solely on a zang fu pattern alone.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Chip Chace

>

>

>

>