Where are all the Chinese Herb Farms?

October 29, 2005

I recommend you join Chinese Herbal Medicine mailing list, to which

I have forwarded your question.

On Oct 29, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Summer Nemri wrote:

> Hello! My name is Summer Nemri and I am currently attending the

> Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine here in Seattle. I just

> recently graduated from Bastyr University with a B.S. in Herbal

> Sciences and in continuing interest of herbs, especially now being

> introduceed to Chinese herbs, I am curious about a few things and

> hoping you or someone you know may be able to help me.

> My concern is of the quality of chinese herbs that are imported

> from China. Pesticide use and air quality I know are a major issue

> and unfortunate fact impacting thier quality and overall

> effectiveness. Also, the reality of the ever increading prices of

> oil and the future cost of importing herbs. I am only beginning to

> explore the idea of starting an organic chinese herb farm possibly

> here in seattle. I am wondering if you know of anyone who's also

> trying to do this and the major hoops I might need to jump through

> and why there aren't more people trying to start farms to supply

> acupuncturists with herbs.

> I would appreciate any help or guidance as to who I might be able

> to speak to about this hopeful future endeavor.

> Thanks so much. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day

> to read my message.

> Summer

>

Web/Online Coordinator, Adult Degree and Graduate Programs

October 29, 2005

You might contact Jean Giblette at hfg.

She heads a consortium of producers of Chinese herb growers. She has an annual

internship program. This August she had a weekend seminar with Robert Newman.

I suggest you address your questions to Jean.

May your inspiration germinate,

Ann Brameier

I recommend you join Chinese Herbal Medicine mailing list, to which

I have forwarded your question.

Todd

On Oct 29, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Summer Nemri wrote:

> Hello! My name is Summer Nemri and I am currently attending the

> Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine here in Seattle. I just

> recently graduated from Bastyr University with a B.S. in Herbal

> Sciences and in continuing interest of herbs, especially now being

> introduceed to Chinese herbs, I am curious about a few things and

> hoping you or someone you know may be able to help me.

> My concern is of the quality of chinese herbs that are imported

> from China. Pesticide use and air quality I know are a major issue

> and unfortunate fact impacting thier quality and overall

> effectiveness. Also, the reality of the ever increading prices of

> oil and the future cost of importing herbs. I am only beginning to

> explore the idea of starting an organic chinese herb farm possibly

> here in seattle. I am wondering if you know of anyone who's also

> trying to do this and the major hoops I might need to jump through

> and why there aren't more people trying to start farms to supply

> acupuncturists with herbs.

> I would appreciate any help or guidance as to who I might be able

> to speak to about this hopeful future endeavor.

> Thanks so much. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day

> to read my message.

> Summer

>

Web/Online Coordinator, Adult Degree and Graduate Programs

October 29, 2005

You should contact Jean Giblette of High Falls Gardens. She is involved- for

many years- in an initiative with farmers to grow Chinese herbs as crops

for profit.

She has a great mission.

hfg

Cara

> I recommend you join Chinese Herbal Medicine mailing list, to which

> I have forwarded your question.

>

> On Oct 29, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Summer Nemri wrote:

>

>> > Hello! My name is Summer Nemri and I am currently attending the

>> > Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine here in Seattle. I just

>> > recently graduated from Bastyr University with a B.S. in Herbal

>> > Sciences and in continuing interest of herbs, especially now being

>> > introduceed to Chinese herbs, I am curious about a few things and

>> > hoping you or someone you know may be able to help me.

>> > My concern is of the quality of chinese herbs that are imported

>> > from China. Pesticide use and air quality I know are a major issue

>> > and unfortunate fact impacting thier quality and overall

>> > effectiveness. Also, the reality of the ever increading prices of

>> > oil and the future cost of importing herbs. I am only beginning to

>> > explore the idea of starting an organic chinese herb farm possibly

>> > here in seattle. I am wondering if you know of anyone who's also

>> > trying to do this and the major hoops I might need to jump through

>> > and why there aren't more people trying to start farms to supply

>> > acupuncturists with herbs.

>> > I would appreciate any help or guidance as to who I might be able

>> > to speak to about this hopeful future endeavor.

>> > Thanks so much. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day

>> > to read my message.

>> > Summer

>> >

>

> Web/Online Coordinator, Adult Degree and Graduate Programs

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

> approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

> discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

October 29, 2005

A couple of other places (on the W. Coast) I'd check off the bat are

horizonherbs.com and Peggy Schafer who grows great stuff and

occasionally sells and teaches at TCM Schools, fairs and such. Here's

a listing on her from

http://www.womensherbalsymposium.org/pages/class1.05descrip.html :

Peggy Schafer

1. Growing the Best Quality Medicine (intermediate/advanced)

From the nuts and bolts of propagating sometimes difficult seed

for larger scale gardens and small farms, to growing out, harvesting,

drying, to seed collecting and cleaning methods. Greenhouses, shade

structure and other season extenders will also be covered. And just

how do you grow quality medicine? Come join us and you just might be

happily surprised.

2. Organic Gardening Tricks of the Trade all levels

Are weeds a problem, and pests bugging you and your garden? Did

you know that earwigs will happily dine and die on soy sauce and salad

oil? Come glean outwitting methods and down to earth solutions to keep

your garden growing beautifully. Bring your gardening problems!

3. Sowing and Saving Seeds Successfully (Beginning/Intermediate)

Whether it's self-reliance, an unusual or rare variety or saving

money or possibly plain old fun that interests you to grow your own;

this session will cover all the methods to assist you in being

successful with seeds. Other propagation methods will also be discussed.

Gus Turpin

>

> You should contact Jean Giblette of High Falls Gardens. She is

involved- for

> many years- in an initiative with farmers to grow Chinese herbs as

crops

> for profit.

> She has a great mission.

>

> hfg@c...

>

> Cara

>

> > I recommend you join Chinese Herbal Medicine mailing list, to which

> > I have forwarded your question.

> >

>

> >

> > On Oct 29, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Summer Nemri wrote:

> >

> >> > Hello! My name is Summer Nemri and I am currently attending the

> >> > Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine here in Seattle. I just

> >> > recently graduated from Bastyr University with a B.S. in Herbal

> >> > Sciences and in continuing interest of herbs, especially now being

> >> > introduceed to Chinese herbs, I am curious about a few things and

> >> > hoping you or someone you know may be able to help me.

> >> > My concern is of the quality of chinese herbs that are imported

> >> > from China. Pesticide use and air quality I know are a major issue

> >> > and unfortunate fact impacting thier quality and overall

> >> > effectiveness. Also, the reality of the ever increading prices of

> >> > oil and the future cost of importing herbs. I am only beginning to

> >> > explore the idea of starting an organic chinese herb farm possibly

> >> > here in seattle. I am wondering if you know of anyone who's also

> >> > trying to do this and the major hoops I might need to jump through

> >> > and why there aren't more people trying to start farms to supply

> >> > acupuncturists with herbs.

> >> > I would appreciate any help or guidance as to who I might be able

> >> > to speak to about this hopeful future endeavor.

> >> > Thanks so much. I really appreciate you taking time out of your day

> >> > to read my message.

> >> > Summer

> >> >

October 30, 2005

Hello Summer,

Welcome. I live in Alaska and I am very interested in growing herbs and

also learning the local wild herbs. I'm planning a visit to Seattle in

January.

Zev Rosenberg did a great workshop on local herbs in Taos, New Mexico

these last two summers. I think. There is a conversation thread not too

far back on this list talking about discovering western herbs into a

Chinese context.

Ann Brameier didn't say it, but she is interested in this issue too.

Rozz Lieght

wrote:

> I recommend you join Chinese Herbal Medicine mailing list, to which

> I have forwarded your question.

>

> On Oct 29, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Summer Nemri wrote:

>

>>Hello! My name is Summer Nemri and I am currently attending the

>>Seattle Institute of Oriental Medicine here in Seattle. I just

>>recently graduated from Bastyr University with a B.S. in Herbal

November 2, 2005

In my humble opinion, what we really need are some Western farms that

are producing ethical animal products for use in Chinese medicine.

Someone with a good knowledge of pharmacy can purchase excellent

quality Chinese medicinals, but finding cruelty-free animal products

is more difficult. Products like musk (she xiang), pangolin scales

(chuan shan jia), and deer antler (lu jiao/lu rong,etc) are very

important in Chinese medicine, but ethical sources are difficult to

come by.

I think that there is a greater need and a greater market for ethical

animal products than transplanted herbs. Many animals such as deer

and pangolins produce good meat to boot.

Eric

November 2, 2005

>

> In my humble opinion, what we really need are some Western farms that

> are producing ethical animal products for use in Chinese medicine.

> Someone with a good knowledge of pharmacy can purchase excellent

> quality Chinese medicinals, but finding cruelty-free animal products

> is more difficult. Products like musk (she xiang), pangolin scales

> (chuan shan jia), and deer antler (lu jiao/lu rong,etc) are very

> important in Chinese medicine, but ethical sources are difficult to

> come by.

>

> I think that there is a greater need and a greater market for ethical

> animal products than transplanted herbs. Many animals such as deer

> and pangolins produce good meat to boot.

>

> Eric

>

As far as deer lu rong goes, probably the best I've source I've heard

of is the New Zealand farms. Maybe Heiko can add something to that ...

.. The Alaskan wild-cutivated caribou antlers are another option (the

animals are caught, have their antlers harvested and then are

released) it's still traumatic but probably better than some farms.

I've seen that armadillos are quite abundant in some parts of the

south (US) but don't know if they have quite the same qualities as the

Chinese and I've never heard if they've been farmed or harvested from

the wild for that purpose. Since killing is involved here it's more

ethically questionable (to me, anyway) although I belive their meat

has been eaten by some.

I'm thinking some of these animal products were first used when

these animals were quite abundant and in some cases even a threat (as

in bears and tigers). Also, hunting them was harder and various parts

were used for different reasons (food, medicine, clothing, etc., ...)

so they weren't as often killed just for one organ, as seems to often

be the case today. It's a bit of a vicious circle since as the animals

become rarer, the price goes up and they are hunted even harder than ever.

Gui ban is one herbal I find especially useful and I understand

it's most often farmed but I understand some of the wild river

tortises are still harvested, which troubles me. Reports of hai ma

depletion led me to give up using that. Certification and regulation

are expensive headaches subject to corruption but may be a step in the

right direction ... .

Since somewhat reasonable substitutes have been found in some cases

(which may also require other adjustments to the formula) such as wild

buffalo for rhino horn, etc., ... maybe another ethical option is to

collectively find effective ways to change some of our formulas. Gus

Turpin

November 2, 2005

Hi Eric,

Would you please elaborate on what " ethical animal products " means?

Thanks,

Fernando

, " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus> wrote:

>

> In my humble opinion, what we really need are some Western farms that

> are producing ethical animal products for use in Chinese medicine.

> Someone with a good knowledge of pharmacy can purchase excellent

> quality Chinese medicinals, but finding cruelty-free animal products

> is more difficult. Products like musk (she xiang), pangolin scales

> (chuan shan jia), and deer antler (lu jiao/lu rong,etc) are very

> important in Chinese medicine, but ethical sources are difficult to

> come by.

>

> I think that there is a greater need and a greater market for ethical

> animal products than transplanted herbs. Many animals such as deer

> and pangolins produce good meat to boot.

>

> Eric

>

November 2, 2005

, " Fernando Bernall "

<fbernall> wrote:

>

> Hi Eric,

>

> Would you please elaborate on what " ethical animal products " means?

Just kill the deer, use the meat, the skin, the sinews, the tail, and

the velvet antlers. Don't just keep slicing the horns off the deer

every year. Of course, costs will rise but the gourmet market for

humane, quality products could handle the price increase.

Provide yuan she (the whole gland that contains she xiang) with

documentation that shows that the animal was farm-raised and was not

an endangered wild animal. Ditto for pangolin scales.

Basically, give consumers a way to know the origins of their products.

If we buy chicken eggs, we can know if they are caged, drugged, fed

products that improve their fatty acids, etc. These factors affect

price and quality. Expand the choices on the market and eliminate the

big question mark that lies behind the current purchase of Chinese

animal products.

Pangolin scales, musk glands, etc are generally from farmed animals.

But it would be nice to know more about the conditions of their

raising environment. Same idea as chicken or beef at the supermarket.

Simple, basic stuff. Just improve conditions so that useful animal

products may be used without ecological damage or cruelty.

Eric

November 3, 2005

, " Gus Turpin "

<tonics@c...> wrote:

> As far as deer lu rong goes, probably the best I've source I've

heard

> of is the New Zealand farms. Maybe Heiko can add something to

that ...

Hmm, makes sense, they have the best venison. Good to know.

> . The Alaskan wild-cutivated caribou antlers are another option

(the

> animals are caught, have their antlers harvested and then are

> released) it's still traumatic but probably better than some farms.

I didn't know this was going on. Thanks for sharing.

In some ways, the harvesting of wild antlers is not so bad, because

the natural environment has influenced the animal and it is free.

It is natural and uncontained, uninfluenced by the knowledge that a

painful and repeated procedure lies ahead. Many smart animals would

avoid the trap, and the ones that lagged behind (Darwin-style) would

escape from a predator-situation with only a bit of pain and a

lesson, but still an intact life to roam the forest. Not a bad

scenario in comparison to general agricultural practice. It may

still qualify as the rape and pillage of nature to some, but the

growing, consuming, and wild-harvesting plants is not much different

unless you apply different ethical rules for chlorophyll-based

life. Certainly if we look to Chinese medicine, we see that all

available resources were used- but of course historic populations

rarely had massive overpopulation problems like we face today.

> I've seen that armadillos are quite abundant in some parts of the

> south (US) but don't know if they have quite the same qualities as

the

> Chinese and I've never heard if they've been farmed or harvested

from

> the wild for that purpose.

I believe that the animals are different, but I am not an expert on

the matter. Chuan shan jia gets its Chinese name from its ability

to burrow through mountains- this is one reason why it is ascribed a

penetrating therapeutic effect. Are armadillos major diggers?

Since killing is involved here it's more

> ethically questionable (to me, anyway) although I belive their meat

> has been eaten by some.

The meat of the animal that yields chuan shan jia ( " chuan shan rou " )

is consumed as a food in China.

> I'm thinking some of these animal products were first used when

> these animals were quite abundant and in some cases even a threat

(as

> in bears and tigers).

Taiwan has relatively few poisonous snakes left because many were

harvested for snake wines. Makes for less biological diversity, but

safer hiking. Safer hiking would always have had precendence in

local communities before global ideas spread. Global exposure makes

people realize that not all the world has the abundance of

scorpions, snakes, etc that one has in their backyard. Most

depletion of endangered species is not due to doctors'

prescriptions, but to local folk people who don't understand the

whole world's ecological woes- they only know their local

environment, they may not be ill-intentioned so much as unaware of

the global situation as a whole.

> Gui ban is one herbal I find especially useful and I understand

> it's most often farmed but I understand some of the wild river

> tortises are still harvested, which troubles me.

Generally wild products are sold separately at a higher price.

Common suppliers stock farmed stuff out of simple economics. I

think the wild stuff needs to be actively pursued with effort and

cash, it doesn't just get slipped in to the cheaper normal stuff

that we buy.

Reports of hai ma

> depletion led me to give up using that.

If you go to a big Chinatown herb shop, you can see displays of wild

hai ma and farmed hai ma. The wild is more expensive and sold

separately from the farmed stuff- it needs to be specifically sought

out.

Certification and regulation

> are expensive headaches subject to corruption but may be a step in

the

> right direction ...

Maybe not certification, just on-label advertising that states a bit

about the source of the product.

Eric

November 3, 2005

Armadillos are also known carriers of leprosy, so I would want to know

about their background for this reason too.

Pat