Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 A few days ago I received a free infomercial book in the mail from a vitamin company I sometimes buy from. It is about maintaining an healthy prostate and andropause, both things as a 60 year-old male I'm interested in. In this book, it mentions Tribulus Terrestris (our Ci Ji Li) and its ability to increase luteinizing hormone which, in men, leads to an increased in testosterone production. Does anyone on this list know anything about this? By itself in standard contemporary CM, Ci Ji Li has no supplementing functions according to reputable Chinese sources, viz. Zhang Bing-cheng on page 974, Bensky, Clavey & Stoger. Since Bensky et al. have changed the Pinyin identification of this med from Bai Ji Li to Ci Ji Li, it seems like they endorse this point of view. In a Chinese book comparing the CM and Tibetan medical uses of the same medicinal plants (published in Beijing in 2002), under Ci Ji Li on page 49, we find that its CM nature and temp are bitter, acrid, and neutral, while its TM nature and temp are bitter, astringent, warm, and mild. Its CM functions are to level the liver, resolve depression, dispel wind, and brighten the eyes, while its TM functions are to disinhibit dampness and overcome dampness, dispel wind and scatter cold. If this med does increase LH and, therefore, indirectly stimulates the testicular production of testosterone, it should be warm and it should invigorate yang. How to explain and/or reconcile this? Are these differences dose-dependent? Have we overlooked a possible use of Ci Ji Li in clinic in both andrology and gynecology? Any comments? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 About 8-10 years ago Tribulis was all the rage in Sydney for body builders as " evidence " comfirmed it increased testosterone and improved libido. Vitamin companies were selling little bottles of it for about AU $60. One of these body builders came into the herb shop and I told him he could buy 5 kilos for $60, and he did. Him and all his mates started drinking 30 grams of it a day. It made no difference to their muscle mass or libido. It did however make them fell very dry and thirsty. It made me wonder if it was infact warming and not neutral and the fact that it treats wind heat seems to contradict its effect of creating dryness and heat. Heiko Lade M.H.Sc.(TCM) Lecturer and clinic supervisor Auckland College of Natural Medicine Website: www.acnm.co.nz - Bob Flaws Friday, November 04, 2005 10:30 AM Ci Ji Li & LH A few days ago I received a free infomercial book in the mail from a vitamin company I sometimes buy from. It is about maintaining an healthy prostate and andropause, both things as a 60 year-old male I'm interested in. In this book, it mentions Tribulus Terrestris (our Ci Ji Li) and its ability to increase luteinizing hormone which, in men, leads to an increased in testosterone production. Does anyone on this list know anything about this? By itself in standard contemporary CM, Ci Ji Li has no supplementing functions according to reputable Chinese sources, viz. Zhang Bing-cheng on page 974, Bensky, Clavey & Stoger. Since Bensky et al. have changed the Pinyin identification of this med from Bai Ji Li to Ci Ji Li, it seems like they endorse this point of view. In a Chinese book comparing the CM and Tibetan medical uses of the same medicinal plants (published in Beijing in 2002), under Ci Ji Li on page 49, we find that its CM nature and temp are bitter, acrid, and neutral, while its TM nature and temp are bitter, astringent, warm, and mild. Its CM functions are to level the liver, resolve depression, dispel wind, and brighten the eyes, while its TM functions are to disinhibit dampness and overcome dampness, dispel wind and scatter cold. If this med does increase LH and, therefore, indirectly stimulates the testicular production of testosterone, it should be warm and it should invigorate yang. How to explain and/or reconcile this? Are these differences dose-dependent? Have we overlooked a possible use of Ci Ji Li in clinic in both andrology and gynecology? Any comments? Bob Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > In this book, it mentions Tribulus Terrestris (our Ci > Ji Li) and its ability to increase luteinizing hormone which, in men, > leads to an increased in testosterone production. Does anyone on this > list know anything about this? I am aware of this issue and interested in learning more about it, but I unfortunately don't have any good material to add. However, I have another question about ci ji li (aka bai ji li- apparently, the current " offical name " is simply 'ji li' according to the PRC pharmacopeia authorities). Ji li's chemical profile often lists the presence of harmine. I've seen one research paper that measured a fairly nominal quantity of harmine in the sample that was studied, but I've never seen any other quantitative analyses that would provide a common range of this constituent (as a % of the dry weight of the crude herb). Does anyone know whether ji li poses a risk of drug interactions from the presence of harmine? Harmine is known to interact with a variety of drugs as both an isolated chemical and as a constituent of other herbs, but I don't know if the quantity present in ji li is significant enough to cause concern. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Bob, if you do a google search of herbal Viagra products you will find ample use of bai ji li. You forgot to mention that one of the herbs best effects is on the breasts: reducing premenstrual breast distention. The whole plant, as we use it, will not increase LH. It is the isolated saponins (furanosterol¹s) that do it. Standardizing herbs to specific constituents and concentrations is how all the herbal ³enhancement² products are created. Cara > A few days ago I received a free infomercial book in the mail from a > vitamin company I sometimes buy from. It is about maintaining an > healthy prostate and andropause, both things as a 60 year-old male I'm > interested in. In this book, it mentouions Tribulus Terrestris (our Ci > Ji Li) and its ability to increase luteinizing hormone which, in men, > leads to an increased in testosterone production. Does anyone on this > list know anything about this? > > By itself in standard contemporary CM, Ci Ji Li has no supplementing > functions according to reputable Chinese sources, viz. Zhang > Bing-cheng on page 974, Bensky, Clavey & Stoger. Since Bensky et al. > have changed the Pinyin identification of this med from Bai Ji Li to > Ci Ji Li, it seems like they endorse this point of view. > > In a Chinese book comparing the CM and Tibetan medical uses of > the same medicinal plants (published in Beijing in 2002), under Ci Ji > Li on page 49, we find that its CM nature and temp are bitter, acrid, > and neutral, while its TM nature and temp are bitter, astringent, > warm, and mild. Its CM functions are to level the liver, resolve > depression, dispel wind, and brighten the eyes, while its TM functions > are to disinhibit dampness and overcome dampness, dispel wind and > scatter cold. If this med does increase LH and, therefore, indirectly > stimulates the testicular production of testosterone, it should be > warm and it should invigorate yang. > > How to explain and/or reconcile this? Are these differences > dose-dependent? Have we overlooked a possible use of Ci Ji Li in > clinic in both andrology and gynecology? Any comments? > > Bob > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 As far as I've seen the use of ji li as an aphrodisiac and tonic can be traced to ayurveda. There it is used in many formulas, perhaps the most famous being nowadays called 'tribestol' with Macuna puriens and Withania somnifera. The harmaline in ji li is present but in too little an amount to be of concern in normal doses as far as I've experienced, seen or read. Dr. K. M. Nadkarni's Materia Medica has an interesting view of it's genito/urinary actions. I'd sugest that in TCM terms the aphrodisiac powers might be partly related to the stagnation clearing effect. As we know, if there's stagnation, then various organs (such as the LV or K) can suffer from depletion as a result, although ji li may in fact have tonifying properties of it's own. Gus Turpin > A few days ago I received a free infomercial book in the mail from a > vitamin company I sometimes buy from. It is about maintaining an > healthy prostate and andropause, both things as a 60 year-old male I'm > interested in. In this book, it mentions Tribulus Terrestris (our Ci > Ji Li) and its ability to increase luteinizing hormone which, in men, > leads to an increased in testosterone production. Does anyone on this > list know anything about this? > > By itself in standard contemporary CM, Ci Ji Li has no supplementing > functions according to reputable Chinese sources, viz. Zhang > Bing-cheng on page 974, Bensky, Clavey & Stoger. Since Bensky et al. > have changed the Pinyin identification of this med from Bai Ji Li to > Ci Ji Li, it seems like they endorse this point of view. > > In a Chinese book comparing the CM and Tibetan medical uses of > the same medicinal plants (published in Beijing in 2002), under Ci Ji > Li on page 49, we find that its CM nature and temp are bitter, acrid, > and neutral, while its TM nature and temp are bitter, astringent, > warm, and mild. Its CM functions are to level the liver, resolve > depression, dispel wind, and brighten the eyes, while its TM functions > are to disinhibit dampness and overcome dampness, dispel wind and > scatter cold. If this med does increase LH and, therefore, indirectly > stimulates the testicular production of testosterone, it should be > warm and it should invigorate yang. > > How to explain and/or reconcile this? Are these differences > dose-dependent? Have we overlooked a possible use of Ci Ji Li in > clinic in both andrology and gynecology? Any comments? > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Cara, Thanks. So it's a fractional extract, not the whole herb. I thought that might be the case. However, if the herb is high enough in these furanosterols to be an economical source, shouldn't they play a part in our use. The fact that this med reduces breast distention suggests that to me: LH leading to the production of progesterone opposing and controlling the effects of estrogens. Bob , Cara Frank <herbbabe@v...> wrote: > > Bob, > if you do a google search of herbal Viagra products you will find ample > use of bai ji li. You forgot to mention that one of the herbs best effects > is on the breasts: reducing premenstrual breast distention. > > The whole plant, as we use it, will not increase LH. It is the isolated > saponins (furanosterol¹s) that do it. Standardizing herbs to specific > constituents and concentrations is how all the herbal ³enhancement² products > are created. > > Cara > > > > A few days ago I received a free infomercial book in the mail from a > > vitamin company I sometimes buy from. It is about maintaining an > > healthy prostate and andropause, both things as a 60 year-old male I'm > > interested in. In this book, it mentouions Tribulus Terrestris (our Ci > > Ji Li) and its ability to increase luteinizing hormone which, in men, > > leads to an increased in testosterone production. Does anyone on this > > list know anything about this? > > > > By itself in standard contemporary CM, Ci Ji Li has no supplementing > > functions according to reputable Chinese sources, viz. Zhang > > Bing-cheng on page 974, Bensky, Clavey & Stoger. Since Bensky et al. > > have changed the Pinyin identification of this med from Bai Ji Li to > > Ci Ji Li, it seems like they endorse this point of view. > > > > In a Chinese book comparing the CM and Tibetan medical uses of > > the same medicinal plants (published in Beijing in 2002), under Ci Ji > > Li on page 49, we find that its CM nature and temp are bitter, acrid, > > and neutral, while its TM nature and temp are bitter, astringent, > > warm, and mild. Its CM functions are to level the liver, resolve > > depression, dispel wind, and brighten the eyes, while its TM functions > > are to disinhibit dampness and overcome dampness, dispel wind and > > scatter cold. If this med does increase LH and, therefore, indirectly > > stimulates the testicular production of testosterone, it should be > > warm and it should invigorate yang. > > > > How to explain and/or reconcile this? Are these differences > > dose-dependent? Have we overlooked a possible use of Ci Ji Li in > > clinic in both andrology and gynecology? Any comments? > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board > > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 I agree about the breast distention piece. The use of isolated constituents is rampant. I just got a quote for a cordyceps isolate for $10,000 per kilo! Oy. Synephrine from zhi ke Ephedrine from ma huang but there are many 20:1 extracts that are affordable. The question is: if we use these extracts- what exactly are we doing? An isolate is not an herb. It¹s a drug. Cara > Cara, > > Thanks. So it's a fractional extract, not the whole herb. I thought > that might be the case. However, if the herb is high enough in these > furanosterols to be an economical source, shouldn't they play a part > in our use. The fact that this med reduces breast distention suggests > that to me: LH leading to the production of progesterone opposing and > controlling the effects of estrogens. > > Bob > > , Cara Frank <herbbabe@v...> > wrote: >> > >> > Bob, >> > if you do a google search of herbal Viagra products you will > find ample >> > use of bai ji li. You forgot to mention that one of the herbs best > effects >> > is on the breasts: reducing premenstrual breast distention. >> > >> > The whole plant, as we use it, will not increase LH. It is the isolated >> > saponins (furanosterol¹s) that do it. Standardizing herbs to specific >> > constituents and concentrations is how all the herbal ³enhancement² > products >> > are created. >> > >> > Cara >> > >> > >>> > > A few days ago I received a free infomercial book in the mail from a >>> > > vitamin company I sometimes buy from. It is about maintaining an >>> > > healthy prostate and andropause, both things as a 60 year-old male I'm >>> > > interested in. In this book, it mentouions Tribulus Terrestris (our Ci >>> > > Ji Li) and its ability to increase luteinizing hormone which, in men, >>> > > leads to an increased in testosterone production. Does anyone on this >>> > > list know anything about this? >>> > > >>> > > By itself in standard contemporary CM, Ci Ji Li has no supplementing >>> > > functions according to reputable Chinese sources, viz. Zhang >>> > > Bing-cheng on page 974, Bensky, Clavey & Stoger. Since Bensky et al. >>> > > have changed the Pinyin identification of this med from Bai Ji Li to >>> > > Ci Ji Li, it seems like they endorse this point of view. >>> > > >>> > > In a Chinese book comparing the CM and Tibetan medical uses of >>> > > the same medicinal plants (published in Beijing in 2002), under Ci Ji >>> > > Li on page 49, we find that its CM nature and temp are bitter, acrid, >>> > > and neutral, while its TM nature and temp are bitter, astringent, >>> > > warm, and mild. Its CM functions are to level the liver, resolve >>> > > depression, dispel wind, and brighten the eyes, while its TM functions >>> > > are to disinhibit dampness and overcome dampness, dispel wind and >>> > > scatter cold. If this med does increase LH and, therefore, indirectly >>> > > stimulates the testicular production of testosterone, it should be >>> > > warm and it should invigorate yang. >>> > > >>> > > How to explain and/or reconcile this? Are these differences >>> > > dose-dependent? Have we overlooked a possible use of Ci Ji Li in >>> > > clinic in both andrology and gynecology? Any comments? >>> > > >>> > > Bob >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board >>> > > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free >>> > > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 To complicate matters a bit, there are some full spectrum extracts out there that are 8:1 to 20:1 and also have been standardized (in this case that doesn' mean they've been spiked with isolates but that the extract is concentrated or mixed to a certain level of marker compounds). Of course they're not REALLY full spectrum, since it depends on the solvent. For example, it might be a concentrated water extraction but that left behind the non-water soluble constituents. Of course that's what we generally use so we have an idea how those would work. Wine or vinegar would pull out a somewhat different spectrum (as I think most people on this list know). I've seen 'full spectrum' water extracts that get up to the industry standards in strength, like a 7% (cordycepic acid) dong chong or a .8% (eleutherosides) wu cha seng. Remember alot of those 5:1 granules have pretty much starch carrier, so with less carrier you can get a stronger concentration ratio. Not to detract from the point that isolate use is rampant, though. Most of the ji li extracts that are standardized for sterols I've seen were extracted with alcohol. Most are 10%-40% sterols. From what I've read Bob's guess about LH has been shown to be the case by Bulgarian studies. That's where at least some of the studies on it's aphrodisiac effects come from too. PubMed has conflicting studies, but here are some possibly relevant ones (if rat studies can be considered relevant to humans, I did notice that once some mice got into my herbs and seemed to really go for the ji li). Int J Androl. 2000;23 Suppl 2:82-4. Related Articles, Links Phytochemicals and the breakthrough of traditional herbs in the management of sexual dysfunctions. Adimoelja A. School of medicine 'Hang Tuah' University, Teaching and Naval Hospital,Surabaya, Indonesia. Traditional herbs have been a revolutionary breakthrough in the management of erectile dysfunction and have become known world-wide as an 'instant' treatment. The modern view of the management of erectile dysfunction s to a single etiology, i.e. the mechanism of erection. A large number of pharmacological agents are orally consumed and vasoactive agents inserted intraurethrally or injected intrapenially to regain good erection. Modern phytochemicals have developed from traditional herbs. Phytochemicals focus their mechanism of healing action to the root cause, i.e. the inability to control the proper function of the whole body system. Hence phytochemicals manage erectile dysfunction in the frame of sexual dysfunction as a whole entity. Protodioscin is a phytochemical agent derived from Tribulus terrestris L plant, which has been clinically proven to improve sexual desire and enhance erection via the conversion of protodioscine to DHEA (De-Hydro-Epi-Androsterone). Preliminary observations suggest that Tribulus terrestris L grown on different soils does not consistently produce the active component Protodioscin. Further photochemical studies of many other herbal plants are needed to explain the inconsistent results found with other herbal plants, such as in diversities of Ginseng, Eurycoma longifolia, Pimpinella pruacen, Muara puama, Ginkgo biloba, Yohimbe etc. PMID: 10849504 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] J Ethnopharmacol. 2005 Jan 4;96(1-2):127-32. Related Articles, Links Effect of Tribulus terrestris on nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate-diaphorase activity and androgen receptors in rat brain. Gauthaman K, Adaikan PG. Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, National University Hospital, National University of Singapore, 5 Lower Kent Ridge Road, Singapore 119074, Singapore. Tribulus terrestris L. (Zygophyllaceae) have been used as an aphrodisiac both in the Indian and Chinese traditional systems of medicine. Administration of Tribulus terrestris extract (TT) increased sexual behaviour and intracavernous pressure both in normal and castrated rats and these effects were probably due to the androgen increasing property of TT. The objective of the present study is to evaluate the effect of TT on nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate-diaphorase (NADPH-d) activity and androgen receptor (AR) immunoreactivity in rat brain. Twenty-four adult male Sprague-Dawley rats were divided into two groups of twelve each. Group I was treated with distilled water and Group II was treated with TT at the dose of 5mg/kg body weight orally, once daily for 8 weeks. Following treatment transcardiac perfusion was done with Ringer lactate, 4% paraformaldehyde and 30% sucrose. The brain tissue was removed and sections of the paraventricular (PVN) area of hypothalamus were taken for NADPH-d and AR immunostaining. There was an increase in both NADPH-d (67%) and AR immunoreactivity (58%) in TT treated group and these results were statistically significant compared to the control. Chronic treatment of TT in rats increases the NADPH-d positive neurons and AR immunoreactivity in the PVN region. Androgens are known to increase both AR and NADPH-d positive neurons either directly or by its conversion to oestrogen. The mechanism for the observed increase in AR and NADPH-d positive neurons in the present study is probably due to the androgen increasing property of TT. The findings from the present study add further support to the aphrodisiac claims of TT. PMID: 15588660 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] J Altern Complement Med. 2003 Apr;9(2):257-65. Related Articles, Links Sexual effects of puncturevine (Tribulus terrestris) extract (protodioscin): an evaluation using a rat model. Gauthaman K, Ganesan AP, Prasad RN. Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, National University Hospital, National University of Singapore, Singapore. OBJECTIVE: Apart from its claims for improvement of sexual functions in men, the puncturevine plant (Tribulus terrestris: TT) has long been considered as an energizer and vitalizer in the indigenous system of medicine. Sexual behavior and intracavernous pressure (ICP) measurements were taken in rats to scientifically validate the claim of TT [containing protodioscin (PTN)] as an aphrodisiac. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Forty sexually mature male Sprague-Dawley rats were randomly divided into four groups of 10 each. Group I served as a control group and groups II, III, and IV were treated with three different doses of TT extract (2.5, 5 and 10 mg/kg body weight, respectively), orally, once daily for 8 weeks. Weight was recorded and the rats from all four groups were subjected to sexual behavior studies with primed females and various parameters namely mount and intromission frequencies (MF and IF, respectively), mount, intromission and ejaculation latencies (ML, IL, and EL, respectively) as well as postejaculatory interval (PEI) were recorded. In addition, blood pressure and ICP were recorded for all rats at the end of study. RESULTS: Increases in body weight (by 9, 23, and 18% for groups II, III & IV) and ICP (by 43% and 26% for groups III and IV) were statistically significant compared to the control group. Increases in MF (by 27% and 24%) and IF (by 19% and 22%) for the groups III and IV were statistically significant. Decreases in ML (by 16%, 23%, and 22% for groups II, III, and IV) and PEI (by 20% for group III) were statistically significant compared to the control. CONCLUSIONS: The weight gain and improvement in sexual behavior parameters observed in rats could be secondary to the androgen increasing property of TT (PTN) that was observed in our earlier study on primates. The increase in ICP which confirms the proerectile aphrodisiac property of TT could possibly be the result of an increase in androgen and subsequent release of nitric oxide from the nerve endings innervating the corpus cavernosum. PMID: 12804079 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Life Sci. 2002 Aug 9;71(12):1385-96. Related Articles, Links Aphrodisiac properties of Tribulus Terrestris extract (Protodioscin) in normal and castrated rats. Gauthaman K, Adaikan PG, Prasad RN. Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, National University Hospital, National University of Singapore, Singapore 119704, Singapore. Tribulus terrestris (TT) has long been used in the traditional Chinese and Indian systems of medicine for the treatment of various ailments and is popularly claimed to improve sexual functions in man. Sexual behaviour and intracavernous pressure (ICP) were studied in both normal and castrated rats to further understand the role of TT containing protodioscin (PTN) as an aphrodisiac. Adult Sprague-Dawley rats were divided into five groups of 8 each that included distilled water treated (normal and castrated), testosterone treated (normal and castrated, 10 mg/kg body weight, subcutaneously, bi-weekly) and TT treated (castrated, 5 mg/kg body weight, orally once daily). Decreases in body weight, prostate weight and ICP were observed among the castrated groups of rats compared to the intact group. There was an overall reduction in the sexual behaviour parameters in the castrated groups of rats as reflected by decrease in mount and intromission frequencies (MF and IF) and increase in mount, intromission, ejaculation latencies (ML, IL, EL) as well as post-ejaculatory interval (PEI). Compared to the castrated control, treatment of castrated rats (with either testosterone or TT extract) showed increase in prostate weight and ICP that were statistically significant. There was also a mild to moderate improvement of the sexual behaviour parameters as evidenced by increase in MF and IF; decrease in ML, IL and PEI. These results were statistically significant. It is concluded that TT extract appears to possess aphrodisiac activity probably due to androgen increasing property of TT (observed in our earlier study on primates). PMID: 12127159 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > I agree about the breast distention piece. > > The use of isolated constituents is rampant. I just got a quote for a > cordyceps isolate for $10,000 per kilo! Oy. > Synephrine from zhi ke > Ephedrine from ma huang > > but there are many 20:1 extracts that are affordable. The question is: if > we use these extracts- what exactly are we doing? An isolate is not an herb. > It¹s a drug. > > Cara > > > > > > Cara, > > > > Thanks. So it's a fractional extract, not the whole herb. I thought > > that might be the case. However, if the herb is high enough in these > > furanosterols to be an economical source, shouldn't they play a part > > in our use. The fact that this med reduces breast distention suggests > > that to me: LH leading to the production of progesterone opposing and > > controlling the effects of estrogens. > > > > Bob > > > > , Cara Frank <herbbabe@v...> > > wrote: > >> > > >> > Bob, > >> > if you do a google search of herbal Viagra products you will > > find ample > >> > use of bai ji li. You forgot to mention that one of the herbs best > > effects > >> > is on the breasts: reducing premenstrual breast distention. > >> > > >> > The whole plant, as we use it, will not increase LH. It is the isolated > >> > saponins (furanosterol¹s) that do it. Standardizing herbs to specific > >> > constituents and concentrations is how all the herbal ³enhancement² > > products > >> > are created. > >> > > >> > Cara > >> > > >> > > >>> > > A few days ago I received a free infomercial book in the mail from a > >>> > > vitamin company I sometimes buy from. It is about maintaining an > >>> > > healthy prostate and andropause, both things as a 60 year-old male I'm > >>> > > interested in. In this book, it mentouions Tribulus Terrestris (our Ci > >>> > > Ji Li) and its ability to increase luteinizing hormone which, in men, > >>> > > leads to an increased in testosterone production. Does anyone on this > >>> > > list know anything about this? > >>> > > > >>> > > By itself in standard contemporary CM, Ci Ji Li has no supplementing > >>> > > functions according to reputable Chinese sources, viz. Zhang > >>> > > Bing-cheng on page 974, Bensky, Clavey & Stoger. Since Bensky et al. > >>> > > have changed the Pinyin identification of this med from Bai Ji Li to > >>> > > Ci Ji Li, it seems like they endorse this point of view. > >>> > > > >>> > > In a Chinese book comparing the CM and Tibetan medical uses of > >>> > > the same medicinal plants (published in Beijing in 2002), under Ci Ji > >>> > > Li on page 49, we find that its CM nature and temp are bitter, acrid, > >>> > > and neutral, while its TM nature and temp are bitter, astringent, > >>> > > warm, and mild. Its CM functions are to level the liver, resolve > >>> > > depression, dispel wind, and brighten the eyes, while its TM functions > >>> > > are to disinhibit dampness and overcome dampness, dispel wind and > >>> > > scatter cold. If this med does increase LH and, therefore, indirectly > >>> > > stimulates the testicular production of testosterone, it should be > >>> > > warm and it should invigorate yang. > >>> > > > >>> > > How to explain and/or reconcile this? Are these differences > >>> > > dose-dependent? Have we overlooked a possible use of Ci Ji Li in > >>> > > clinic in both andrology and gynecology? Any comments? > >>> > > > >>> > > Bob > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > > including board > >>> > > approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > >>> > > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2005 Report Share Posted November 5, 2005 Another point on the ji li/aphrodisiac subject is that some of the Indian Tribulus extracts I've seen were of the whole plant or root. In Nadkarni's Indian Materia Medica he lists both he plant and the seeds as being cooling, demulcent, diuretic, tonic and aphrodisiac. On Jim Duke's database ( http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/ ) he mention PROTODIOSCIN as being present in the shoots (which doesn't mean it's not in other parts, just that it's documented in that part). In one of the studies I posted that (supposedly active) compound was found to vary with plant habitat, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 " In one of the studies I posted that (supposedly active) compound was found to vary with plant habitat, as well. " I wonder if this accounts, at least in part, for the difference in medicinal uses between Southeast and Far East Asian communities? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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