Guest guest Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Antioxidants may interfere with cholesterol drugs. A 1-year study of 153 patients has found that supplements of vitamin C, vitamin E, beta- carotene and selenium may interfere with the ability of simvastatin (Zocor) and niacin to raise the HDL levels of patients with abnormally low HDL levels. The patients receiving antioxidants and drugs had an average HDL increase of 18%, whereas the patients who received drugs alone has a 25% increase. However, HDL2-C, an HDL component thought to account for much of HDL's cardioprotective benefit, rose by 42% with drugs alone but was unchanged in patients who also received antioxidants. [Cheung MC and others. Antioxidant supplements block the response of HDL to Simvastatin-niacin therapy in patients with coronary artery disease and low HDL. Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology 21:1320, 2001.] Although the study was small and has not been replicated, it casts further doubt on the value of antioxidant supplementation. Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 you can never win Oakland, CA 94609 - cha Friday, November 25, 2005 7:47 AM disturbing Antioxidants may interfere with cholesterol drugs. A 1-year study of 153 patients has found that supplements of vitamin C, vitamin E, beta- carotene and selenium may interfere with the ability of simvastatin (Zocor) and niacin to raise the HDL levels of patients with abnormally low HDL levels. The patients receiving antioxidants and drugs had an average HDL increase of 18%, whereas the patients who received drugs alone has a 25% increase. However, HDL2-C, an HDL component thought to account for much of HDL's cardioprotective benefit, rose by 42% with drugs alone but was unchanged in patients who also received antioxidants. [Cheung MC and others. Antioxidant supplements block the response of HDL to Simvastatin-niacin therapy in patients with coronary artery disease and low HDL. Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology 21:1320, 2001.] Although the study was small and has not been replicated, it casts further doubt on the value of antioxidant supplementation. Chinese Herbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > you can never win > > Or there is no free lunch. It is just a reminder that there is a lot that we can't know without controlled studies (a point about which you and I have long agreed). A reminder that even longterm use of chinese herbs in combination with drugs is not even remotely proven safe. When we talk about drug/herb interactions, we are usually referring to something obvious like getting diarrhea or a headache. But subtler things like alterations in cholesterol are typically silent killers and we don't know until its too late. We nned to always keep in mind that despite the lack of any hard data to question the use of combined herb/drug therapy, we in new territory and this could easily come back to bite us in the butts someday. Many chinese herbs have antioxidant properties, thus we need to be very careful when prescribing any herbs with any drugs. Heart disease is still the number one killer in America and will be for a long time to come. Anything an herbalist does that increases the risk of a heart attack is a lawsuit waiting to happen in litiginous america. My guess is that if you get sued under such a scenario, your malpractice carrier will drop you like a hot potato. This is one of many reasons I have recently been advocating the use of chinese herbs for short term use in acute conditions or to control symptoms. The mere fact that the Chinese temselves have used certain herbs longterm also does not guarantee their safety under these conditions nor do the claims of native chinese docs that the whole issue is a red herring. Most chinese docs know little or nothing about pharmacology and their opinions on this topic of drug/herb interaction is really baseless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Todd The other side of the coin is that oxidation of cholesterol may be very significant. As far as herbs, while many will disagree i do not think we have much of any data on long term use. While the Chinese did have incredible observation abilities much of what we know today simply was not available Oakland, CA 94609 - Friday, November 25, 2005 3:00 PM Re: disturbing , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > you can never win > > Or there is no free lunch. It is just a reminder that there is a lot that we can't know without controlled studies (a point about which you and I have long agreed). A reminder that even longterm use of chinese herbs in combination with drugs is not even remotely proven safe. When we talk about drug/herb interactions, we are usually referring to something obvious like getting diarrhea or a headache. But subtler things like alterations in cholesterol are typically silent killers and we don't know until its too late. We nned to always keep in mind that despite the lack of any hard data to question the use of combined herb/drug therapy, we in new territory and this could easily come back to bite us in the butts someday. Many chinese herbs have antioxidant properties, thus we need to be very careful when prescribing any herbs with any drugs. Heart disease is still the number one killer in America and will be for a long time to come. Anything an herbalist does that increases the risk of a heart attack is a lawsuit waiting to happen in litiginous america. My guess is that if you get sued under such a scenario, your malpractice carrier will drop you like a hot potato. This is one of many reasons I have recently been advocating the use of chinese herbs for short term use in acute conditions or to control symptoms. The mere fact that the Chinese temselves have used certain herbs longterm also does not guarantee their safety under these conditions nor do the claims of native chinese docs that the whole issue is a red herring. Most chinese docs know little or nothing about pharmacology and their opinions on this topic of drug/herb interaction is really baseless. Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Im all for keeping all that we know today in mind, but what about some more emphasis in our training/practice on developing those " incredible observation abilities " as well? Surely the two combined are the best defence against coming to what may prove to be out of proportion conclusions on things... , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > The other side of the coin is that oxidation of cholesterol may be very significant. > As far as herbs, while many will disagree i do not think we have much of any data on long term use. While the Chinese did have incredible observation abilities much of what we know today simply was not available > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Friday, November 25, 2005 3:00 PM > Re: disturbing > > > , " " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > > > you can never win > > > > > > Or there is no free lunch. It is just a reminder that there is a lot that we can't know > without controlled studies (a point about which you and I have long agreed). A reminder > that even longterm use of chinese herbs in combination with drugs is not even remotely > proven safe. When we talk about drug/herb interactions, we are usually referring to > something obvious like getting diarrhea or a headache. But subtler things like alterations > in cholesterol are typically silent killers and we don't know until its too late. We nned to > always keep in mind that despite the lack of any hard data to question the use of > combined herb/drug therapy, we in new territory and this could easily come back to bite > us in the butts someday. Many chinese herbs have antioxidant properties, thus we need to > be very careful when prescribing any herbs with any drugs. > > Heart disease is still the number one killer in America and will be for a long time to come. > Anything an herbalist does that increases the risk of a heart attack is a lawsuit waiting to > happen in litiginous america. My guess is that if you get sued under such a scenario, your > malpractice carrier will drop you like a hot potato. This is one of many reasons I have > recently been advocating the use of chinese herbs for short term use in acute conditions > or to control symptoms. The mere fact that the Chinese temselves have used certain > herbs longterm also does not guarantee their safety under these conditions nor do the > claims of native chinese docs that the whole issue is a red herring. Most chinese docs > know little or nothing about pharmacology and their opinions on this topic of drug/herb > interaction is really baseless. > > Todd > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Wow, have you been going over old posts? Oakland, CA 94609 - bianzhengnazi Monday, January 23, 2006 4:54 PM Re: disturbing Im all for keeping all that we know today in mind, but what about some more emphasis in our training/practice on developing those " incredible observation abilities " as well? Surely the two combined are the best defence against coming to what may prove to be out of proportion conclusions on things... , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > The other side of the coin is that oxidation of cholesterol may be very significant. > As far as herbs, while many will disagree i do not think we have much of any data on long term use. While the Chinese did have incredible observation abilities much of what we know today simply was not available > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Friday, November 25, 2005 3:00 PM > Re: disturbing > > > , " " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > > > you can never win > > > > > > Or there is no free lunch. It is just a reminder that there is a lot that we can't know > without controlled studies (a point about which you and I have long agreed). A reminder > that even longterm use of chinese herbs in combination with drugs is not even remotely > proven safe. When we talk about drug/herb interactions, we are usually referring to > something obvious like getting diarrhea or a headache. But subtler things like alterations > in cholesterol are typically silent killers and we don't know until its too late. We nned to > always keep in mind that despite the lack of any hard data to question the use of > combined herb/drug therapy, we in new territory and this could easily come back to bite > us in the butts someday. Many chinese herbs have antioxidant properties, thus we need to > be very careful when prescribing any herbs with any drugs. > > Heart disease is still the number one killer in America and will be for a long time to come. > Anything an herbalist does that increases the risk of a heart attack is a lawsuit waiting to > happen in litiginous america. My guess is that if you get sued under such a scenario, your > malpractice carrier will drop you like a hot potato. This is one of many reasons I have > recently been advocating the use of chinese herbs for short term use in acute conditions > or to control symptoms. The mere fact that the Chinese temselves have used certain > herbs longterm also does not guarantee their safety under these conditions nor do the > claims of native chinese docs that the whole issue is a red herring. Most chinese docs > know little or nothing about pharmacology and their opinions on this topic of drug/herb > interaction is really baseless. > > Todd > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Yeah, sorry ! , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > Wow, have you been going over old posts? > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > bianzhengnazi > > Monday, January 23, 2006 4:54 PM > Re: disturbing > > > Im all for keeping all that we know today in mind, but what about some > more emphasis in our training/practice on developing those > " incredible observation abilities " as well? Surely the two combined > are the best defence against coming to what may prove to be out of > proportion conclusions on things... > > , " " > <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > > > > The other side of the coin is that oxidation of cholesterol may be > very significant. > > As far as herbs, while many will disagree i do not think we have > much of any data on long term use. While the Chinese did have > incredible observation abilities much of what we know today simply was > not available > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > > > > > Friday, November 25, 2005 3:00 PM > > Re: disturbing > > > > > > , " " > <alonmarcus@w...> > > wrote: > > > > > > you can never win > > > > > > > > > > Or there is no free lunch. It is just a reminder that there is a > lot that we can't know > > without controlled studies (a point about which you and I have > long agreed). A reminder > > that even longterm use of chinese herbs in combination with drugs > is not even remotely > > proven safe. When we talk about drug/herb interactions, we are > usually referring to > > something obvious like getting diarrhea or a headache. But > subtler things like alterations > > in cholesterol are typically silent killers and we don't know > until its too late. We nned to > > always keep in mind that despite the lack of any hard data to > question the use of > > combined herb/drug therapy, we in new territory and this could > easily come back to bite > > us in the butts someday. Many chinese herbs have antioxidant > properties, thus we need to > > be very careful when prescribing any herbs with any drugs. > > > > Heart disease is still the number one killer in America and will > be for a long time to come. > > Anything an herbalist does that increases the risk of a heart > attack is a lawsuit waiting to > > happen in litiginous america. My guess is that if you get sued > under such a scenario, your > > malpractice carrier will drop you like a hot potato. This is one > of many reasons I have > > recently been advocating the use of chinese herbs for short term > use in acute conditions > > or to control symptoms. The mere fact that the Chinese temselves > have used certain > > herbs longterm also does not guarantee their safety under these > conditions nor do the > > claims of native chinese docs that the whole issue is a red > herring. Most chinese docs > > know little or nothing about pharmacology and their opinions on > this topic of drug/herb > > interaction is really baseless. > > > > Todd > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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