RE: Andrea Beth Damsky's post on tonics during external disorders

[Guest guest]

Andrea et al.,

The difficulty with using tonics during conditions involving

externally-contracted pathogens involves more than heat, cold, or stagnation of

qi. The issue revolves around the qi dynamic present during acute illness.

 

To give a good example of tonics backfiring, I'll use a personal anecdote.

Recently I celebrated my birthday a little too exuberantly, finding by the end

of the evening that my half of a fifth of scotch was nowhere to be seen (same

with my friend's...). Needless to say (I'm not that young anymore) the next day

was an off day for my qi body. Feeling that I may be at risk of developing a

cold or flu, I prepared a batch of Yu Ping Feng San, as a decoction, and threw

in a bit of Bai Ren Shen powder, taken as a draft. Needless to say, it was a bit

too late for that approach, and within the hour I had developed a sore throat,

and the beginnings of a rather nasty flu. Clearly, the whisky had depleted my

middle jiao qi, and consequently my wei qi. Although it had added more than a

bit of heat to my system, by the time (about 16 hours later) that I took the

formula, I had no heat symptoms. I assumed, therefore, that it would be fine to

boost my energy with a tonic formula. The problem was

that my wei qi was so deficient, that the surface qi in my body at the time of

quaffing my soup was literally pathogenic. Even though I really had no heat

symptoms, I had absence of wei qi to tonify. So instead of tonifying my wei qi,

the formula gave a big old headstart to the pathogen.

 

Remember, literally everything is qi. The universe is nothing but. So yes, you

can actually tonify streptococcus, or whatever. Also, as the other fellow

(?) pointed out, it's important to understand exactly what the patient's

condition is at the time. Had I been similarly wei qi deficient but in a chronic

way, and vulnerable to a similar bug, it may have been appropriate to use that

formula. This might be understood as a situation where the wei qi is weak but

the middle jiao is ripe for stimulation to produce wei qi - whereas in my case

above, it was still too damaged to do anything of the kind. We must keep in mind

the qi dynamic relevant to the organ systems we are dealing with. This is what

makes classical herbal medicine so darn difficult. (And also probably why the

powerful anti-viral herbs seem so popular lately.)

 

-Matt

 

 

Matthew P. Sieradski, M.Ac.O.M., L.Ac.

Acupuncturist & Herbalist

2767 Friendly Street

Eugene, OR 97405

(541) 579-1153

 

 

 

 

 

 

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure that the notion of " supplementing evil " (tonifying

pathogens) exists in Chinese medicine; it may be a Westernized idea or

a misinterpretation. Supplementing medicinals supplement depletion of

qi, blood, yin, yang, or essence. They tend to be rich substances

that may cause stagnation and heat formation if they are prescribed

immoderately or in patients that they aren't indicated for. In

standard clinical Chinese medicine, substances are only prescribed

when they are indicated and are not recommended in the absence of

suitable presenting patterns (unless they are used to adjust the qi

dynamic to help the primary medicinals). Thus, supplementing herbs

are inappropriate for replete patterns of external contraction simply

because there is no important depletion to supplement at this time.

When there is significant depletion, they are indicated and safely used.

 

I have never seen a Chinese text say that evils ('pathogenic qi') can

be supplemented ('tonified'). Ill-effects from inappropriate use of

supplementing agents are simply due to inappropriate use of medicinals

based on improper pattern identification. Don't treat a condition of

true heat with warming agents, don't treat repletion with

supplementing methods, don't treat depletion with draining methods.

The adverse effects of inappropriate supplementing medicinals in

external contractions don't need to be explained as " tonifying

pathogens " , they can be simply explained by improperly increasing

heat, cold, stagnation, etc.

 

The word 'bu3' in Chinese, which we translate as supplement,

originally mend " to patch " or " to mend " , as in fabric. It is also

used when talking about filling a tooth in modern dentistry. One is

filling or patching something that is damaged or depleted, not just

adding to everything. The word tonify, which isn't even in a

dictionary, is generally used as an imprecise term in Western Chinese

medicine that lumps seven different types of 'tonification' together.

The word tonic originally meant a panacea, and is used quite

differently in Western herbal medicine and old-school Western medicine

than in Chinese medicine. The faithful transmission of Chinese

medical knowledge would be enhanced by keeping the Chinese viewpoint

intact as well as possible. I may be wrong, but I am under the

impression that this notion of tonifying pathogens is an example of an

error in transmission.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

I don't speak or read Chinese and haven't heard the terminology of

'tonifying the evil' used by Chinese teachers but they did say that

tonifing an early stage wind invasion could " lock the robber in the

house " .

I remember Subhuti once wrote that the idea is a bit overblown and

that it's mainly a matter of not making qi tonics the major element of

treatment during early stage wind invasion. Gus Turpin

 

>

> I'm not sure that the notion of " supplementing evil " (tonifying

> pathogens) exists in Chinese medicine; it may be a Westernized idea or

> a misinterpretation. Supplementing medicinals supplement depletion of

> qi, blood, yin, yang, or essence. They tend to be rich substances

> that may cause stagnation and heat formation if they are prescribed

> immoderately or in patients that they aren't indicated for. In

> standard clinical Chinese medicine, substances are only prescribed

> when they are indicated and are not recommended in the absence of

> suitable presenting patterns (unless they are used to adjust the qi

> dynamic to help the primary medicinals). Thus, supplementing herbs

> are inappropriate for replete patterns of external contraction simply

> because there is no important depletion to supplement at this time.

> When there is significant depletion, they are indicated and safely used.

>

> I have never seen a Chinese text say that evils ('pathogenic qi') can

> be supplemented ('tonified'). Ill-effects from inappropriate use of

> supplementing agents are simply due to inappropriate use of medicinals

> based on improper pattern identification. Don't treat a condition of

> true heat with warming agents, don't treat repletion with

> supplementing methods, don't treat depletion with draining methods.

> The adverse effects of inappropriate supplementing medicinals in

> external contractions don't need to be explained as " tonifying

> pathogens " , they can be simply explained by improperly increasing

> heat, cold, stagnation, etc.

>

> The word 'bu3' in Chinese, which we translate as supplement,

> originally mend " to patch " or " to mend " , as in fabric. It is also

> used when talking about filling a tooth in modern dentistry. One is

> filling or patching something that is damaged or depleted, not just

> adding to everything. The word tonify, which isn't even in a

> dictionary, is generally used as an imprecise term in Western Chinese

> medicine that lumps seven different types of 'tonification' together.

> The word tonic originally meant a panacea, and is used quite

> differently in Western herbal medicine and old-school Western medicine

> than in Chinese medicine. The faithful transmission of Chinese

> medical knowledge would be enhanced by keeping the Chinese viewpoint

> intact as well as possible. I may be wrong, but I am under the

> impression that this notion of tonifying pathogens is an example of an

> error in transmission.

>

> Eric

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt,

 

Thank you for sharing your personal experience. There's nothing quite like

learning the hard way, eh? And how lovely that you are located on Friendly

Street!

 

 

Matthew Sieradski <mattsieradski wrote:

Andrea et al.,

The difficulty with using tonics during conditions involving

externally-contracted pathogens involves more than heat, cold, or stagnation of

qi. The issue revolves around the qi dynamic present during acute illness.

 

To give a good example of tonics backfiring, I'll use a personal anecdote.

Recently I celebrated my birthday a little too exuberantly, finding by the end

of the evening that my half of a fifth of scotch was nowhere to be seen (same

with my friend's...). Needless to say (I'm not that young anymore) the next day

was an off day for my qi body. Feeling that I may be at risk of developing a

cold or flu, I prepared a batch of Yu Ping Feng San, as a decoction, and threw

in a bit of Bai Ren Shen powder, taken as a draft. Needless to say, it was a bit

too late for that approach, and within the hour I had developed a sore throat,

and the beginnings of a rather nasty flu. Clearly, the whisky had depleted my

middle jiao qi, and consequently my wei qi. Although it had added more than a

bit of heat to my system, by the time (about 16 hours later) that I took the

formula, I had no heat symptoms. I assumed, therefore, that it would be fine to

boost my energy with a tonic formula. The problem was

that my wei qi was so deficient, that the surface qi in my body at the time of

quaffing my soup was literally pathogenic. Even though I really had no heat

symptoms, I had absence of wei qi to tonify. So instead of tonifying my wei qi,

the formula gave a big old headstart to the pathogen.

 

Remember, literally everything is qi. The universe is nothing but. So yes, you

can actually tonify streptococcus, or whatever. Also, as the other fellow

(?) pointed out, it's important to understand exactly what the patient's

condition is at the time. Had I been similarly wei qi deficient but in a chronic

way, and vulnerable to a similar bug, it may have been appropriate to use that

formula. This might be understood as a situation where the wei qi is weak but

the middle jiao is ripe for stimulation to produce wei qi - whereas in my case

above, it was still too damaged to do anything of the kind. We must keep in mind

the qi dynamic relevant to the organ systems we are dealing with. This is what

makes classical herbal medicine so darn difficult. (And also probably why the

powerful anti-viral herbs seem so popular lately.)

 

-Matt

 

 

Matthew P. Sieradski, M.Ac.O.M., L.Ac.

Acupuncturist & Herbalist

2767 Friendly Street

Eugene, OR 97405

(541) 579-1153

 

 

 

 

 

 

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Eric.

 

Your clear understanding of Chinese medical history and language adds much

depth to this conversation. The concept of " tonifying a pathogen " always seemed

a little suspect to me, but I wasn't sure how to approach the question. What

you wrote makes sense to me. Thank you, and nice to hear from you.

 

Andrea Beth

 

Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

I'm not sure that the notion of " supplementing evil " (tonifying

pathogens) exists in Chinese medicine; it may be a Westernized idea or

a misinterpretation. Supplementing medicinals supplement depletion of

qi, blood, yin, yang, or essence. They tend to be rich substances

that may cause stagnation and heat formation if they are prescribed

immoderately or in patients that they aren't indicated for. In

standard clinical Chinese medicine, substances are only prescribed

when they are indicated and are not recommended in the absence of

suitable presenting patterns (unless they are used to adjust the qi

dynamic to help the primary medicinals). Thus, supplementing herbs

are inappropriate for replete patterns of external contraction simply

because there is no important depletion to supplement at this time.

When there is significant depletion, they are indicated and safely used.

 

I have never seen a Chinese text say that evils ('pathogenic qi') can

be supplemented ('tonified'). Ill-effects from inappropriate use of

supplementing agents are simply due to inappropriate use of medicinals

based on improper pattern identification. Don't treat a condition of

true heat with warming agents, don't treat repletion with

supplementing methods, don't treat depletion with draining methods.

The adverse effects of inappropriate supplementing medicinals in

external contractions don't need to be explained as " tonifying

pathogens " , they can be simply explained by improperly increasing

heat, cold, stagnation, etc.

 

The word 'bu3' in Chinese, which we translate as supplement,

originally mend " to patch " or " to mend " , as in fabric. It is also

used when talking about filling a tooth in modern dentistry. One is

filling or patching something that is damaged or depleted, not just

adding to everything. The word tonify, which isn't even in a

dictionary, is generally used as an imprecise term in Western Chinese

medicine that lumps seven different types of 'tonification' together.

The word tonic originally meant a panacea, and is used quite

differently in Western herbal medicine and old-school Western medicine

than in Chinese medicine. The faithful transmission of Chinese

medical knowledge would be enhanced by keeping the Chinese viewpoint

intact as well as possible. I may be wrong, but I am under the

impression that this notion of tonifying pathogens is an example of an

error in transmission.

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Treating lurking pathogens or disease in general (external or internal) with

herbs is a complicated matter. It really comes down to deep and thorough

understanding of theory (wen bing, Shang han lun, zang fu) etc. In practice

there are few if any rules. Concepts like you cannot tonify during an

external attack are just not true. Or the saying, 'one cannot tonify if

there is a pathogen (lurking or otherwise)' are also false. (But such rules

can be true in certain situations)... Lurking pathogens are pulled out with

supplementing therapies as well as evicting, it ALL comes down to the

individual presentation.

In the upcoming Lantern there should be a 14 visit case study

presenting a great example of this topic. It is a wenbing lurking pathogen

case where the patient goes through many twists and turns. There is

tonifying, evicting and everything else. One can see that in real life one

must employ all the ideas at once many times. But I agree with Eric, not

once, for example, does the original author or later commentaries mention

tonfiying the pathogen, although locking in the pathogen is a basic wenbing

concept. One must constantly balance stagnation, phlegm, stasis (etc) vs.

deficiency, hot vs. cold, exterior vs. interior etc etc. This is really the

art.

But one can look at it like this. If there is already phlegm in the

middle jiao and one gives a bunch of yin nourishers inappropriately (which

actually happens more often than one would think) the phlegm can become more

pronounced. The pathogen has been strengthened (per se) or maybe better is

to say increased. So it is not like one does not have to fear giving

'tonics' - Because obviously they can cause problems. One must just

prescribe (as Eric states) according the patient's needs. If one does that

how can one fail?

 

Hope that helps.

 

-

 

 

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> Friday, November 25, 2005 11:14 PM

>

> Re: 's post on tonics during external

> disorders

>

> I'm not sure that the notion of " supplementing evil " (tonifying

> pathogens) exists in Chinese medicine; it may be a Westernized idea or

> a misinterpretation. Supplementing medicinals supplement depletion of

> qi, blood, yin, yang, or essence. They tend to be rich substances

> that may cause stagnation and heat formation if they are prescribed

> immoderately or in patients that they aren't indicated for. In

> standard clinical Chinese medicine, substances are only prescribed

> when they are indicated and are not recommended in the absence of

> suitable presenting patterns (unless they are used to adjust the qi

> dynamic to help the primary medicinals). Thus, supplementing herbs

> are inappropriate for replete patterns of external contraction simply

> because there is no important depletion to supplement at this time.

> When there is significant depletion, they are indicated and safely used.

>

> I have never seen a Chinese text say that evils ('pathogenic qi') can

> be supplemented ('tonified'). Ill-effects from inappropriate use of

> supplementing agents are simply due to inappropriate use of medicinals

> based on improper pattern identification. Don't treat a condition of

> true heat with warming agents, don't treat repletion with

> supplementing methods, don't treat depletion with draining methods.

> The adverse effects of inappropriate supplementing medicinals in

> external contractions don't need to be explained as " tonifying

> pathogens " , they can be simply explained by improperly increasing

> heat, cold, stagnation, etc.

>

> The word 'bu3' in Chinese, which we translate as supplement,

> originally mend " to patch " or " to mend " , as in fabric. It is also

> used when talking about filling a tooth in modern dentistry. One is

> filling or patching something that is damaged or depleted, not just

> adding to everything. The word tonify, which isn't even in a

> dictionary, is generally used as an imprecise term in Western Chinese

> medicine that lumps seven different types of 'tonification' together.

> The word tonic originally meant a panacea, and is used quite

> differently in Western herbal medicine and old-school Western medicine

> than in Chinese medicine. The faithful transmission of Chinese

> medical knowledge would be enhanced by keeping the Chinese viewpoint

> intact as well as possible. I may be wrong, but I am under the

> impression that this notion of tonifying pathogens is an example of an

> error in transmission.

>

> Eric

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> The word 'bu3' in Chinese, which we translate as supplement,

> originally mend " to patch " or " to mend " , as in fabric. It is also

> used when talking about filling a tooth in modern dentistry. One is

> filling or patching something that is damaged or depleted, not just

> adding to everything. The word tonify, which isn't even in a

> dictionary, is generally used as an imprecise term in Western Chinese

> medicine that lumps seven different types of 'tonification' together.

> The word tonic originally meant a panacea, and is used quite

> differently in Western herbal medicine and old-school Western medicine

> than in Chinese medicine. The faithful transmission of Chinese

> medical knowledge would be enhanced by keeping the Chinese viewpoint

> intact as well as possible.

 

Tonify IMO is a valid word. It is the word that Eastland press uses for the

character (bu3 Êä). The fact that it is not in certain dictionaries is

not

a problem. This as one might say, 'prevents the user from making their own

assumptions, correct?' This is in line with the same argument that many

Wiseman supporters use to back some of their strangely picked terms. But

honestly, besides this, I have no problem understanding its meaning - with

the context, teachers, and reading I have never once felt like I missed any

extra meaning with the word. It is just a word and its definition/ meaning

is defined from the mounds of context that I have read. It has also been

around long enough where it works.

 

It is also, as far as I know, not an oversimplication of terms. For

example: Eastland Press will use

Enrich - for ¼¢(zi1), nourish ÍÜ (yang3). I cannot speak for other

(systems), but it is definitely a 1 to 1 correlation to English and the

Chinese (character) in this system.

 

-

[Guest guest]

,

<> wrote:

>

> Thanks, Eric.

>

> Your clear understanding of Chinese medical history and language

adds much depth to this conversation. The concept of " tonifying a

pathogen " always seemed a little suspect to me, but I wasn't sure

how to approach the question. What you wrote makes sense to me.

Thank you, and nice to hear from you.

 

I wouldn't claim to have a true mastery of Chinese medical history

and/or language, but I have good teachers who do and I have asked

this same question myself in the past. I think it is an interesting

topic. There are plenty of reasons provided by normal TCM theory

that explain the fact that some patients experience a worsening of

symptoms when using supplementing meds inappropriately in external

contractions, so I don't think that the idea of tonifying pathogens

is necessary to explain the results.

 

The phrase that Gus mentioned about locking intruders inside is a

very famous orthodox saying that is true to Chinese medicine. It is

a metaphor that rubs shoulders with other great sayings, such

as " raking the coals out from under the fire " , " forging weapons when

the enemy is already at your gate " , or " digging a well after one is

already thirsty. " But I was always under the impression that the

saying about locking intruders inside refers to the inappropriate

use of astringents, not tonics.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

, " "

<@c...> wrote:

> It is also, as far as I know, not an oversimplication of terms.

For

> example: Eastland Press will use

> Enrich - for ¼¢(zi1), nourish ÍÜ (yang3). I cannot speak for

other

> (systems), but it is definitely a 1 to 1 correlation to English

and the

> Chinese (character) in this system.

 

I agree that the word tonify is well-established and is a basic

concept that most of us clearly understand. I also agree that its

various nuances are clearly represented and differentiated in

Eastland's literature.

 

The problem of a lack of differentiation is only really prominent in

books like Macioccia's and other basic texts. The new version of

Foundations is riddled with errors that go beyond lumping action

concepts and terms together. There are places where the Chinglish

from the Chinese translation teams didn't even get polished, words

like Bloods (as plural for blood) can be easily spotted in the

text.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

In my admittedly simplistic way of looking at it, tonics in general

(even wei qi tonics) are more concerned with building, strenthening or

preserving the inside, that is, focusing inward rather than the

outwards push of most ext. releasers which would be 'pushing out' the

robber.

Gus Turpin

 

>

> Good point, Gus. Do you envision this as causing the pores to

close, thereby preventing venting of the pathogen?

>

> Andrea Beth

>

> Gus Turpin <tonics@c...> wrote:

> I don't speak or read Chinese and haven't heard the terminology of

> 'tonifying the evil' used by Chinese teachers but they did say that

> tonifing an early stage wind invasion could " lock the robber in the

> house " .

> I remember Subhuti once wrote that the idea is a bit overblown and

> that it's mainly a matter of not making qi tonics the major element of

> treatment during early stage wind invasion. Gus Turpin

>

[Guest guest]

You're probably right that tonifying the pathogen is

an example of imprecise transmission, Eric. And thanks

for the very clear discussion of the issue. My only

question for you is, rather than simply to say don't

use tonics because they're contra-indicated in replete

heat, how do you explain why? If there is a clear

underlying deficiency, what is the mechanism

underlying the warning to avoid them. That question is

what I was trying to address by my little anecdote. I

obviously don't have all the answers, but my belief is

that the medicine can be understood in the framework

of a series of interpenetrating dynamic models, more

than just use x for this, and use y for that.

Obviously this is the case because the ancients were

able to know when to create formulas that included

tonics for use during acute illness. Just because

somebody has an external evil doesn't mean their

cavity to be filled is absent. Rather, it's somehow

not available. This has already been established. Why?

is the question.

-Matt

 

--- Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

 

> I'm not sure that the notion of " supplementing evil "

> (tonifying

> pathogens) exists in Chinese medicine; it may be a

> Westernized idea or

> a misinterpretation. Supplementing medicinals

> supplement depletion of

> qi, blood, yin, yang, or essence. They tend to be

> rich substances

> that may cause stagnation and heat formation if they

> are prescribed

> immoderately or in patients that they aren't

> indicated for. In

> standard clinical Chinese medicine, substances are

> only prescribed

> when they are indicated and are not recommended in

> the absence of

> suitable presenting patterns (unless they are used

> to adjust the qi

> dynamic to help the primary medicinals). Thus,

> supplementing herbs

> are inappropriate for replete patterns of external

> contraction simply

> because there is no important depletion to

> supplement at this time.

> When there is significant depletion, they are

> indicated and safely used.

>

> I have never seen a Chinese text say that evils

> ('pathogenic qi') can

> be supplemented ('tonified'). Ill-effects from

> inappropriate use of

> supplementing agents are simply due to inappropriate

> use of medicinals

> based on improper pattern identification. Don't

> treat a condition of

> true heat with warming agents, don't treat repletion

> with

> supplementing methods, don't treat depletion with

> draining methods.

> The adverse effects of inappropriate supplementing

> medicinals in

> external contractions don't need to be explained as

> " tonifying

> pathogens " , they can be simply explained by

> improperly increasing

> heat, cold, stagnation, etc.

>

> The word 'bu3' in Chinese, which we translate as

> supplement,

> originally mend " to patch " or " to mend " , as in

> fabric. It is also

> used when talking about filling a tooth in modern

> dentistry. One is

> filling or patching something that is damaged or

> depleted, not just

> adding to everything. The word tonify, which isn't

> even in a

> dictionary, is generally used as an imprecise term

> in Western Chinese

> medicine that lumps seven different types of

> 'tonification' together.

> The word tonic originally meant a panacea, and is

> used quite

> differently in Western herbal medicine and

> old-school Western medicine

> than in Chinese medicine. The faithful transmission

> of Chinese

> medical knowledge would be enhanced by keeping the

> Chinese viewpoint

> intact as well as possible. I may be wrong, but I

> am under the

> impression that this notion of tonifying pathogens

> is an example of an

> error in transmission.

>

> Eric

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

 

[Guest guest]

Andrea,

 

You're quite welcome. I seem to be attracted to the

hard way. Perhaps out of stubbornness.

 

-Matt

 

--- < wrote:

 

> Hi Matt,

>

> Thank you for sharing your personal experience.

> There's nothing quite like learning the hard way,

> eh? And how lovely that you are located on Friendly

> Street!

>

>

>

> Matthew Sieradski <mattsieradski wrote:

> Andrea et al.,

> The difficulty with using tonics during conditions

> involving externally-contracted pathogens involves

> more than heat, cold, or stagnation of qi. The issue

> revolves around the qi dynamic present during acute

> illness.

>

> To give a good example of tonics backfiring, I'll

> use a personal anecdote. Recently I celebrated my

> birthday a little too exuberantly, finding by the

> end of the evening that my half of a fifth of scotch

> was nowhere to be seen (same with my friend's...).

> Needless to say (I'm not that young anymore) the

> next day was an off day for my qi body. Feeling that

> I may be at risk of developing a cold or flu, I

> prepared a batch of Yu Ping Feng San, as a

> decoction, and threw in a bit of Bai Ren Shen

> powder, taken as a draft. Needless to say, it was a

> bit too late for that approach, and within the hour

> I had developed a sore throat, and the beginnings of

> a rather nasty flu. Clearly, the whisky had depleted

> my middle jiao qi, and consequently my wei qi.

> Although it had added more than a bit of heat to my

> system, by the time (about 16 hours later) that I

> took the formula, I had no heat symptoms. I assumed,

> therefore, that it would be fine to boost my energy

> with a tonic formula. The problem was

> that my wei qi was so deficient, that the surface qi

> in my body at the time of quaffing my soup was

> literally pathogenic. Even though I really had no

> heat symptoms, I had absence of wei qi to tonify. So

> instead of tonifying my wei qi, the formula gave a

> big old headstart to the pathogen.

>

> Remember, literally everything is qi. The universe

> is nothing but. So yes, you can actually tonify

> streptococcus, or whatever. Also, as the other

> fellow (?) pointed out, it's important to

> understand exactly what the patient's condition is

> at the time. Had I been similarly wei qi deficient

> but in a chronic way, and vulnerable to a similar

> bug, it may have been appropriate to use that

> formula. This might be understood as a situation

> where the wei qi is weak but the middle jiao is ripe

> for stimulation to produce wei qi - whereas in my

> case above, it was still too damaged to do anything

> of the kind. We must keep in mind the qi dynamic

> relevant to the organ systems we are dealing with.

> This is what makes classical herbal medicine so darn

> difficult. (And also probably why the powerful

> anti-viral herbs seem so popular lately.)

>

> -Matt

>

>

> Matthew P. Sieradski, M.Ac.O.M., L.Ac.

> Acupuncturist & Herbalist

> 2767 Friendly Street

> Eugene, OR 97405

> (541) 579-1153

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million

> songs. Try it free.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional

> services, including board approved continuing

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[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

But I was always under the impression that the

> saying about locking intruders inside refers to the inappropriate

> use of astringents, not tonics.

>

 

Not necessarily, for example shi hu is said to have the potential of locking

a pathogen in...

 

-

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:41 AM

>

> Re: 's post on tonics during external

> disorders

>

> , " "

> <@c...> wrote:

> > It is also, as far as I know, not an oversimplication of terms.

> For

> > example: Eastland Press will use

> > Enrich - for ¼¢(zi1), nourish ÍÜ (yang3). I cannot speak for

> other

> > (systems), but it is definitely a 1 to 1 correlation to English

> and the

> > Chinese (character) in this system.

>

> I agree that the word tonify is well-established and is a basic

> concept that most of us clearly understand. I also agree that its

> various nuances are clearly represented and differentiated in

> Eastland's literature.

>

> The problem of a lack of differentiation is only really prominent in

> books like Macioccia's and other basic texts. The new version of

> Foundations is riddled with errors that go beyond lumping action

> concepts and terms together. There are places where the Chinglish

> from the Chinese translation teams didn't even get polished, words

> like Bloods (as plural for blood) can be easily spotted in the

> text.

>

> Eric

>

 

Which Foundations are we talking about? Macioccia? Does he not write the

text?

 

-Jason

[Guest guest]

, Matthew Sieradski

<mattsieradski> wrote:

>

> You're probably right that tonifying the pathogen is

> an example of imprecise transmission, Eric. And thanks

> for the very clear discussion of the issue. My only

> question for you is, rather than simply to say don't

> use tonics because they're contra-indicated in replete

> heat, how do you explain why? If there is a clear

> underlying deficiency, what is the mechanism

> underlying the warning to avoid them.

 

This is just proper " pattern identification as the basis for

determining treatment " (bian zheng lun zhi). If the patient presents

with vacuity, supplementation is indicated. If they have a repletion

presentation, draining is indicated. The art comes in because cases

are often mixed and the proportion of draining and supplementing

medicinals needs to be adjusted correctly. If we mess up, it is

usually because of errors in our pattern identification or errors in

our formulation of medicinals.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Jason. This does further clarify things in my mind. I'd like to read

that article in the Lantern. When does it come out?

 

Andrea Beth

 

wrote: Treating lurking

pathogens or disease in general (external or internal) with

herbs is a complicated matter. It really comes down to deep and thorough

understanding of theory (wen bing, Shang han lun, zang fu) etc. In practice

there are few if any rules. Concepts like you cannot tonify during an

external attack are just not true. Or the saying, 'one cannot tonify if

there is a pathogen (lurking or otherwise)' are also false. (But such rules

can be true in certain situations)... Lurking pathogens are pulled out with

supplementing therapies as well as evicting, it ALL comes down to the

individual presentation.

In the upcoming Lantern there should be a 14 visit case study

presenting a great example of this topic. It is a wenbing lurking pathogen

case where the patient goes through many twists and turns. There is

tonifying, evicting and everything else. One can see that in real life one

must employ all the ideas at once many times. But I agree with Eric, not

once, for example, does the original author or later commentaries mention

tonfiying the pathogen, although locking in the pathogen is a basic wenbing

concept. One must constantly balance stagnation, phlegm, stasis (etc) vs.

deficiency, hot vs. cold, exterior vs. interior etc etc. This is really the

art.

But one can look at it like this. If there is already phlegm in the

middle jiao and one gives a bunch of yin nourishers inappropriately (which

actually happens more often than one would think) the phlegm can become more

pronounced. The pathogen has been strengthened (per se) or maybe better is

to say increased. So it is not like one does not have to fear giving

'tonics' - Because obviously they can cause problems. One must just

prescribe (as Eric states) according the patient's needs. If one does that

how can one fail?

 

Hope that helps.

 

-

 

 

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> Friday, November 25, 2005 11:14 PM

>

> Re: 's post on tonics during external

> disorders

>

> I'm not sure that the notion of " supplementing evil " (tonifying

> pathogens) exists in Chinese medicine; it may be a Westernized idea or

> a misinterpretation. Supplementing medicinals supplement depletion of

> qi, blood, yin, yang, or essence. They tend to be rich substances

> that may cause stagnation and heat formation if they are prescribed

> immoderately or in patients that they aren't indicated for. In

> standard clinical Chinese medicine, substances are only prescribed

> when they are indicated and are not recommended in the absence of

> suitable presenting patterns (unless they are used to adjust the qi

> dynamic to help the primary medicinals). Thus, supplementing herbs

> are inappropriate for replete patterns of external contraction simply

> because there is no important depletion to supplement at this time.

> When there is significant depletion, they are indicated and safely used.

>

> I have never seen a Chinese text say that evils ('pathogenic qi') can

> be supplemented ('tonified'). Ill-effects from inappropriate use of

> supplementing agents are simply due to inappropriate use of medicinals

> based on improper pattern identification. Don't treat a condition of

> true heat with warming agents, don't treat repletion with

> supplementing methods, don't treat depletion with draining methods.

> The adverse effects of inappropriate supplementing medicinals in

> external contractions don't need to be explained as " tonifying

> pathogens " , they can be simply explained by improperly increasing

> heat, cold, stagnation, etc.

>

> The word 'bu3' in Chinese, which we translate as supplement,

> originally mend " to patch " or " to mend " , as in fabric. It is also

> used when talking about filling a tooth in modern dentistry. One is

> filling or patching something that is damaged or depleted, not just

> adding to everything. The word tonify, which isn't even in a

> dictionary, is generally used as an imprecise term in Western Chinese

> medicine that lumps seven different types of 'tonification' together.

> The word tonic originally meant a panacea, and is used quite

> differently in Western herbal medicine and old-school Western medicine

> than in Chinese medicine. The faithful transmission of Chinese

> medical knowledge would be enhanced by keeping the Chinese viewpoint

> intact as well as possible. I may be wrong, but I am under the

> impression that this notion of tonifying pathogens is an example of an

> error in transmission.

>

> Eric

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

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> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

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