1. Jin Gui passage and 2. tonifiying the pathogen

November 26, 2005

When I said " relatively little grammar " ..this was meant as an

oversimplification...its actually that classical texts use less vocabulary and

particularly less compound character modern vocab. I have spent the better

part of this summer reading through the first seventy pages of " Chinese Medical

Chinese: Grammar and vocabulary " Which I would highly recommend anyone take a

look at if you want to start reading CM classical literature(even if you are not

a fan of " one world one word " ). I would like to recant my previous remarks and

say that classical chinese grammar is evil....evil in a fun sort of way, and oh

vey the punctuation issues. All evil aside the number of different grammar

patterns seem relatively limited and are repeated over and over again. I by no

means have mastered those patterns, but rather consider myself to be at a good

starting point. I am aware of the confusion that can arise when switching

subject verb noun as Jason pointed out. I have the benefit of being

in a rich environment (Hangzhou) near TCM library and huge border like

bookstore chalk full of tcm books. When I first started reading Jin Gui a few

months ago I bought two different chinese commentaries on the jingui (yesterday

a classmate gave me the definitive hard to find green shanghai one..a hard

fine...so up to three). When I started reading I would look at the various

chinese versions and low and behold one could look at three different versions

of the same text and see punctuation in three different places...changing the

meaing in all cases. This is ugly, and then I realize that all of these old

dead or nearly dead ( " princess bride " , an afterthought) " Chinese Masters " cant

really agree on the interpretations themselves. So the interpretation, is

highly personal and based on your experience with the period of grammar and your

time in clinic. When I come to a difficult passage I like to look at the

chinese explanation on my own or with my wife or chinese CM friend and

see what I can get. I am deeply interested in the classics and think your

suggestion on taking up a class on the classica chinese is an excellent idea.

This multiple interpretation is yet another reason why I believe as many of us

as possible should put in the time to access the CHinese directly. How else can

you make your OWN understanding of this complex CM universe. If you dont make

the attempt at the chinese you only can site what other people have said. There

are Chinese and non-Chinese interpreters out there who equally make mistakes in

their non-native language....

] When I asked for assist, I had Jason's name in mind but since I was new to

the group I didnt want to call anyone out directly. So Jason what is your

understanding of this passage?

My teacher is still in beijing but when i see him again of course I will ask

him. Furthermore a friend and I have been mashing things over on the tonify the

evil issue. There is definitely Ren Shen Bai Du san. Our teacher Dr. Wu is 71

years old and I think he will have a good definitive answer on this. Definitive

but of course only his opinion on the matter ( but he has been at this for a

long time). Someone mentioned this as " mistransmission " . I dont think so.

Yesterday while visiting the He Ren of pediatric physicians in hangzhou for our

sons cough (This guy is somewhere between 80 and 90), I heard a patient ask if

he could their son a " Gao Tang " . The doctor quickly and firmly replied " no, he

has a cold " . Gao tang is a very large formula (dosage ranges from 50 - 250),

with honey or sugar with more than the usual number of herbs...with many tonics.

The herbs are prepared at the hospital or sent out to a company to who can do

such a special preparation. The herbs are

cooked for hours and hours until a very thick syrup consistency is left over.

Patients take 1-2 teaspoons BID during the winter and generally stop taking the

formula when spring arrives. THis is thought to prevent them getting sick over

the next year or work on some chronic issue. I have also heard other doctors

here say they would not give tonic herbs while a patient was acutely with common

cold. I think it is a personal choice. I think if the person defensive qi and

normal qi is low ...you have to give the patient tonics to help tonify the

normal qi in order to kick the pathogen out. But of course you would choose

less cloying tonics and give something to help digest/prevent cloying these

tonics. Like many things in CM this is one more thing people have different

opinions on. Finally though I do agree with Jason and Eric its all a matter of

your dx. Don't give herbs for something that isn't present. Or yes like Eric

said you will have to deal with the consequences.

My operating system has crashed since being in china, and my computer has lost

much of its ancient chinese wisdom. I apologize for the difficulty some may

have had in reading my chinese with various chinese or Japanese inputing

systems.

Schwartz

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

November 26, 2005

Mark,

It looks like you are in a great environment to learn CM. I actually should

be in Hangzhou in the spring, if you are still there maybe we can meet.

Anyway, I cannot read your characters, but if I have time tomorrow I will

look in my JinGui texts and get the original characters. Are others able to

read these characters with a PC? If so, what system are you using? Just

curious...

-

>

> On Behalf Of Mark Schwartz

> Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:12 PM

>

> 1. Jin Gui passage and 2. tonifiying the pathogen

>

> When I said " relatively little grammar " ..this was meant as an

> oversimplification...its actually that classical texts use less vocabulary

> and particularly less compound character modern vocab. I have spent the

> better part of this summer reading through the first seventy pages of

> " Chinese Medical Chinese: Grammar and vocabulary " Which I would highly

> recommend anyone take a look at if you want to start reading CM classical

> literature(even if you are not a fan of " one world one word " ). I would

> like to recant my previous remarks and say that classical chinese grammar

> is evil....evil in a fun sort of way, and oh vey the punctuation issues.

> All evil aside the number of different grammar patterns seem relatively

> limited and are repeated over and over again. I by no means have mastered

> those patterns, but rather consider myself to be at a good starting point.

> I am aware of the confusion that can arise when switching subject verb

> noun as Jason pointed out. I have the benefit of being

> in a rich environment (Hangzhou) near TCM library and huge border like

> bookstore chalk full of tcm books. When I first started reading Jin Gui a

> few months ago I bought two different chinese commentaries on the jingui

> (yesterday a classmate gave me the definitive hard to find green shanghai

> one..a hard fine...so up to three). When I started reading I would look at

> the various chinese versions and low and behold one could look at three

> different versions of the same text and see punctuation in three different

> places...changing the meaing in all cases. This is ugly, and then I

> realize that all of these old dead or nearly dead ( " princess bride " , an

> afterthought) " Chinese Masters " cant really agree on the interpretations

> themselves. So the interpretation, is highly personal and based on your

> experience with the period of grammar and your time in clinic. When I

> come to a difficult passage I like to look at the chinese explanation on

> my own or with my wife or chinese CM friend and

> see what I can get. I am deeply interested in the classics and think

> your suggestion on taking up a class on the classica chinese is an

> excellent idea. This multiple interpretation is yet another reason why I

> believe as many of us as possible should put in the time to access the

> CHinese directly. How else can you make your OWN understanding of this

> complex CM universe. If you dont make the attempt at the chinese you

> only can site what other people have said. There are Chinese and non-

> Chinese interpreters out there who equally make mistakes in their non-

> native language....

>

> ] When I asked for assist, I had Jason's name in mind but since I was

> new to the group I didnt want to call anyone out directly. So Jason what

> is your understanding of this passage?

>

> My teacher is still in beijing but when i see him again of course I will

> ask him. Furthermore a friend and I have been mashing things over on the

> tonify the evil issue. There is definitely Ren Shen Bai Du san. Our

> teacher Dr. Wu is 71 years old and I think he will have a good definitive

> answer on this. Definitive but of course only his opinion on the matter

> ( but he has been at this for a long time). Someone mentioned this as

> " mistransmission " . I dont think so. Yesterday while visiting the He Ren

> of pediatric physicians in hangzhou for our sons cough (This guy is

> somewhere between 80 and 90), I heard a patient ask if he could their son

> a " Gao Tang " . The doctor quickly and firmly replied " no, he has a cold " .

> Gao tang is a very large formula (dosage ranges from 50 - 250), with honey

> or sugar with more than the usual number of herbs...with many tonics. The

> herbs are prepared at the hospital or sent out to a company to who can do

> such a special preparation. The herbs are

> cooked for hours and hours until a very thick syrup consistency is left

> over. Patients take 1-2 teaspoons BID during the winter and generally stop

> taking the formula when spring arrives. THis is thought to prevent them

> getting sick over the next year or work on some chronic issue. I have

> also heard other doctors here say they would not give tonic herbs while a

> patient was acutely with common cold. I think it is a personal choice. I

> think if the person defensive qi and normal qi is low ...you have to give

> the patient tonics to help tonify the normal qi in order to kick the

> pathogen out. But of course you would choose less cloying tonics and give

> something to help digest/prevent cloying these tonics. Like many things

> in CM this is one more thing people have different opinions on. Finally

> though I do agree with Jason and Eric its all a matter of your dx. Don't

> give herbs for something that isn't present. Or yes like Eric said you

> will have to deal with the consequences.

>

> My operating system has crashed since being in china, and my computer

> has lost much of its ancient chinese wisdom. I apologize for the

> difficulty some may have had in reading my chinese with various chinese or

> Japanese inputing systems.

>

> Schwartz

>

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

>

November 26, 2005

I am not able to read Mark's Chinese after trying the following encoding

schemes:

Big5, UTF-8, Hz, GB18030, GB2312

Mike L.

wrote: