Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hello fellow CHA-ers, I am seeking your feedback on my essay below. Please keep in mind that it is only draft and may need to double check on some things, so if you see anything obviously wrong with it then I am happy to hear eveything you have to say. Please also note that throughout the article, I refer to " TCM " in the narrow sense as Fruehauf is using. Cheers! ---------------- I am sympathetic to the concerns of individuals such as Heiner Fruehauf, that are ardent critics of existing trends in modernization of CM and the " institutionalized phenomenon presently known as " TCM " (traditional Chinese medicine) " . The perspective is well summarized in an introduction to one of Fruehauf's pieces on this topic here (http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm): " This article is based on the conviction that the traditional art of Oriental medicine is dying--both in mainland China, home of the mother trunk of the field, and consequently overseas where branches of the tree are trying to grow. It may be an anachronistic piece, written at a time when TCM administrators around the world are celebrating major advances in the field, such as increasing numbers of students, practitioners, patients, colleges, universities, and hospitals, which all appear to reflect a booming state of Oriental medicine. But if we truly respect our tradition as a living organism and listen intently to the deeper layers of its pulse, it becomes evident that the original vitality of the system is expiring, although its true condition may be obscured by a steroidal glow on the surface. " As I have written (http://forums.acupuncture.net.au/viewtopic.php?t=267), what is truly revolutionary about CM and Chinese philosophy generally is in the way of seeing and relating it encourages, not just of the practitioner in diagnosing the patient, but of all of us in relation to the world. At its root, it shows us how and why it is vitally important for our health and happiness that the subjective immediacy of all that we experience be not just immediately written off as unimportant unless there is a way to objectively verify it (and/or an authority has done so for us). It suggests that our over-reliance on an undeniably useful intellectual/conceptual filter in interpreting the world, when we forget that there is and always has been something before the filter, leaves a world that is much less worthwhile living in. And as the TCM community slowly but surely detaches itself from deeply understanding this basic philosophy from which it itself originally sprung, it too is in danger of become a lackey (albeit a troublesome one) of this cold objectifying worldview. Nevertheless, I have to take issue with Fruehauf at this point, and say that I think TCM is a wonderful thing, and an important step in the continuing evolution of CM into the world. Confused? Doubting my sanity? The problem with pre-modern Chinese culture, for all its beauty and depth and spirituality, is that it was incredibly elitist. The gap between rich and poor, both materially and non-materially, was probably as large as if not the largest of any other culture in existence. This meant that people that were lucky enough to have the background, the contacts, the resources, the money, or maybe just the sheer individual brilliance, etc to learn and really deeply understand Daoist internal alchemy and Classical could use the opportunity to work hard and do so, but many could not even really begin. For the majority of the population, the culture allowed people to see that certain things were important and should be respected, but did not have the resources or political structure to provide the tools with which the average citizen could really understand why they were important. The result of such a gap is a people that on average could be very prone to false superstitious beliefs, because as far as they could tell the false superstitious and the truly profound looked exactly the same. That's why when an equalizing opportunity like Communism (modernity) came along, a great fury was unleashed from the lowest classes of the Chinese people against that in traditional culture they saw they had been long denied real access to. TCM could be seen in a similar vein. It is fairly well established by now that " bian zheng lun zhi " or anything resembling that ideal was not what the majority of those that dispensed herbs and practiced acupuncture took heed of. It instead was again a mark of the elite – the educated scholar-physicians that had the time, resources, and access to the texts that allowed them to develop a deep understanding of its principles, and those lucky enough to find themselves to be able to learn personally from great practitioners and/or Daoist masters. There could not have been many of these in number, given what we already know, able to read Chinese or no, is the great difficulty of getting large numbers of people to understand what classics are about. Many practitioners would probably have been " fang shi " , specialists in tried and true formula that they applied more or less symptomatically. Good medicine I'm sure, but still not bian zheng. And so, if " bian zheng lun zhi " was for the elite, the greatest achievement of TCM was to be able to translate it into an accessible format for the masses. That is what modernity at its noblest has always been able to do, to level the playing field and give more people of different births and backgrounds better contact with what is the highest in their culture. There are many downsides to modernity and the over-reliance on conceptual rationality that it tends to encourage of course, but surely we should at least give credit where it is due. I like to think of myself as very Daoist in my anarchism. This means I don't just tear things down Sid Vicious style - a Daoist will always be critical of institutions certainly, but I think would also be able to recognise where they have their important place, so that the said criticisms actually serve to make the institutions stronger in the face of change. TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. It gives a lot of people a taste of something very deep that they probably would not have tasted without it. If it simply adds to those advantages a clear path to a deeper understanding of where it itself came from, and hence encouraging all who learn it to move beyond it, a change which is easier to make happen if its good sides are also honoured, surely no-one would have any problems with wishing the TCM juggernaut all the best on its steroidal worldwide growth? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Fruenauf that that the deeper roots are dying, but that we may perhaps be able to use this superficial repletion to our advantage. 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Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. >>> And how do you know if it best or not. Do we really have that information available to us? What we have with TCM if nothing else is a professional system that is being looked at.That is what i think is the most important development called TCM. Its all too easy to have romantic attitudes but in our times we need more. Oakland, CA 94609 - bianzhengnazi Monday, January 23, 2006 10:52 PM The shallowness of modern TCM (and why this is a good thing) Hello fellow CHA-ers, I am seeking your feedback on my essay below. Please keep in mind that it is only draft and may need to double check on some things, so if you see anything obviously wrong with it then I am happy to hear eveything you have to say. Please also note that throughout the article, I refer to " TCM " in the narrow sense as Fruehauf is using. Cheers! ---------------- I am sympathetic to the concerns of individuals such as Heiner Fruehauf, that are ardent critics of existing trends in modernization of CM and the " institutionalized phenomenon presently known as " TCM " (traditional Chinese medicine) " . The perspective is well summarized in an introduction to one of Fruehauf's pieces on this topic here (http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm): " This article is based on the conviction that the traditional art of Oriental medicine is dying--both in mainland China, home of the mother trunk of the field, and consequently overseas where branches of the tree are trying to grow. It may be an anachronistic piece, written at a time when TCM administrators around the world are celebrating major advances in the field, such as increasing numbers of students, practitioners, patients, colleges, universities, and hospitals, which all appear to reflect a booming state of Oriental medicine. But if we truly respect our tradition as a living organism and listen intently to the deeper layers of its pulse, it becomes evident that the original vitality of the system is expiring, although its true condition may be obscured by a steroidal glow on the surface. " As I have written (http://forums.acupuncture.net.au/viewtopic.php?t=267), what is truly revolutionary about CM and Chinese philosophy generally is in the way of seeing and relating it encourages, not just of the practitioner in diagnosing the patient, but of all of us in relation to the world. At its root, it shows us how and why it is vitally important for our health and happiness that the subjective immediacy of all that we experience be not just immediately written off as unimportant unless there is a way to objectively verify it (and/or an authority has done so for us). It suggests that our over-reliance on an undeniably useful intellectual/conceptual filter in interpreting the world, when we forget that there is and always has been something before the filter, leaves a world that is much less worthwhile living in. And as the TCM community slowly but surely detaches itself from deeply understanding this basic philosophy from which it itself originally sprung, it too is in danger of become a lackey (albeit a troublesome one) of this cold objectifying worldview. Nevertheless, I have to take issue with Fruehauf at this point, and say that I think TCM is a wonderful thing, and an important step in the continuing evolution of CM into the world. Confused? Doubting my sanity? The problem with pre-modern Chinese culture, for all its beauty and depth and spirituality, is that it was incredibly elitist. The gap between rich and poor, both materially and non-materially, was probably as large as if not the largest of any other culture in existence. This meant that people that were lucky enough to have the background, the contacts, the resources, the money, or maybe just the sheer individual brilliance, etc to learn and really deeply understand Daoist internal alchemy and Classical could use the opportunity to work hard and do so, but many could not even really begin. For the majority of the population, the culture allowed people to see that certain things were important and should be respected, but did not have the resources or political structure to provide the tools with which the average citizen could really understand why they were important. The result of such a gap is a people that on average could be very prone to false superstitious beliefs, because as far as they could tell the false superstitious and the truly profound looked exactly the same. That's why when an equalizing opportunity like Communism (modernity) came along, a great fury was unleashed from the lowest classes of the Chinese people against that in traditional culture they saw they had been long denied real access to. TCM could be seen in a similar vein. It is fairly well established by now that " bian zheng lun zhi " or anything resembling that ideal was not what the majority of those that dispensed herbs and practiced acupuncture took heed of. It instead was again a mark of the elite - the educated scholar-physicians that had the time, resources, and access to the texts that allowed them to develop a deep understanding of its principles, and those lucky enough to find themselves to be able to learn personally from great practitioners and/or Daoist masters. There could not have been many of these in number, given what we already know, able to read Chinese or no, is the great difficulty of getting large numbers of people to understand what classics are about. Many practitioners would probably have been " fang shi " , specialists in tried and true formula that they applied more or less symptomatically. Good medicine I'm sure, but still not bian zheng. And so, if " bian zheng lun zhi " was for the elite, the greatest achievement of TCM was to be able to translate it into an accessible format for the masses. That is what modernity at its noblest has always been able to do, to level the playing field and give more people of different births and backgrounds better contact with what is the highest in their culture. There are many downsides to modernity and the over-reliance on conceptual rationality that it tends to encourage of course, but surely we should at least give credit where it is due. I like to think of myself as very Daoist in my anarchism. This means I don't just tear things down Sid Vicious style - a Daoist will always be critical of institutions certainly, but I think would also be able to recognise where they have their important place, so that the said criticisms actually serve to make the institutions stronger in the face of change. TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. It gives a lot of people a taste of something very deep that they probably would not have tasted without it. If it simply adds to those advantages a clear path to a deeper understanding of where it itself came from, and hence encouraging all who learn it to move beyond it, a change which is easier to make happen if its good sides are also honoured, surely no-one would have any problems with wishing the TCM juggernaut all the best on its steroidal worldwide growth? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Fruenauf that that the deeper roots are dying, but that we may perhaps be able to use this superficial repletion to our advantage. Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Best I can really recommend to answer that one is to go see Heiner: http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm The thing is Fruehauf may indeed have " romantic ideas " , but he also does have more. I think he would actually say it is all too easy to have a professional development system, but we still need more. I agree with him, and that is the point of my writing too, we need both! Li , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. > >>> > And how do you know if it best or not. Do we really have that information available to us? What we have with TCM if nothing else is a professional system that is being looked at.That is what i think is the most important development called TCM. Its all too easy to have romantic attitudes but in our times we need more. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > bianzhengnazi > > Monday, January 23, 2006 10:52 PM > The shallowness of modern TCM (and why this is a good thing) > > > Hello fellow CHA-ers, > > I am seeking your feedback on my essay below. Please keep in mind > that it is only draft and may need to double check on some things, so > if you see anything obviously wrong with it then I am happy to hear > eveything you have to say. Please also note that throughout the > article, I refer to " TCM " in the narrow sense as Fruehauf is using. > > Cheers! > > ---------------- > > I am sympathetic to the concerns of individuals such as Heiner > Fruehauf, that are ardent critics of existing trends in modernization > of CM and the " institutionalized phenomenon presently known as " TCM " > (traditional Chinese medicine) " . The perspective is well summarized > in an introduction to one of Fruehauf's pieces on this topic here > (http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm): > > " This article is based on the conviction that the traditional art of > Oriental medicine is dying--both in mainland China, home of the mother > trunk of the field, and consequently overseas where branches of the > tree are trying to grow. It may be an anachronistic piece, written at > a time when TCM administrators around the world are celebrating major > advances in the field, such as increasing numbers of students, > practitioners, patients, colleges, universities, and hospitals, which > all appear to reflect a booming state of Oriental medicine. But if we > truly respect our tradition as a living organism and listen intently > to the deeper layers of its pulse, it becomes evident that the > original vitality of the system is expiring, although its true > condition may be obscured by a steroidal glow on the surface. " > > As I have written > (http://forums.acupuncture.net.au/viewtopic.php?t=267), what is truly > revolutionary about CM and Chinese philosophy generally is in the way > of seeing and relating it encourages, not just of the practitioner in > diagnosing the patient, but of all of us in relation to the world. At > its root, it shows us how and why it is vitally important for our > health and happiness that the subjective immediacy of all that we > experience be not just immediately written off as unimportant unless > there is a way to objectively verify it (and/or an authority has done > so for us). It suggests that our over-reliance on an undeniably > useful intellectual/conceptual filter in interpreting the world, when > we forget that there is and always has been something before the > filter, leaves a world that is much less worthwhile living in. And as > the TCM community slowly but surely detaches itself from deeply > understanding this basic philosophy from which it itself originally > sprung, it too is in danger of become a lackey (albeit a troublesome > one) of this cold objectifying worldview. > > Nevertheless, I have to take issue with Fruehauf at this point, and > say that I think TCM is a wonderful thing, and an important step in > the continuing evolution of CM into the world. > > Confused? Doubting my sanity? > > The problem with pre-modern Chinese culture, for all its beauty and > depth and spirituality, is that it was incredibly elitist. The gap > between rich and poor, both materially and non-materially, was > probably as large as if not the largest of any other culture in > existence. This meant that people that were lucky enough to have the > background, the contacts, the resources, the money, or maybe just the > sheer individual brilliance, etc to learn and really deeply understand > Daoist internal alchemy and Classical could use the > opportunity to work hard and do so, but many could not even really > begin. For the majority of the population, the culture allowed people > to see that certain things were important and should be respected, but > did not have the resources or political structure to provide the tools > with which the average citizen could really understand why they were > important. The result of such a gap is a people that on average could > be very prone to false superstitious beliefs, because as far as they > could tell the false superstitious and the truly profound looked > exactly the same. That's why when an equalizing opportunity like > Communism (modernity) came along, a great fury was unleashed from the > lowest classes of the Chinese people against that in traditional > culture they saw they had been long denied real access to. > > TCM could be seen in a similar vein. It is fairly well established by > now that " bian zheng lun zhi " or anything resembling that ideal was > not what the majority of those that dispensed herbs and practiced > acupuncture took heed of. It instead was again a mark of the elite - > the educated scholar-physicians that had the time, resources, and > access to the texts that allowed them to develop a deep understanding > of its principles, and those lucky enough to find themselves to be > able to learn personally from great practitioners and/or Daoist > masters. There could not have been many of these in number, given > what we already know, able to read Chinese or no, is the great > difficulty of getting large numbers of people to understand what > classics are about. Many practitioners would > probably have been " fang shi " , specialists in tried and true formula > that they applied more or less symptomatically. Good medicine I'm > sure, but still not bian zheng. > > And so, if " bian zheng lun zhi " was for the elite, the greatest > achievement of TCM was to be able to translate it into an accessible > format for the masses. That is what modernity at its noblest has > always been able to do, to level the playing field and give more > people of different births and backgrounds better contact with what is > the highest in their culture. There are many downsides to modernity > and the over-reliance on conceptual rationality that it tends to > encourage of course, but surely we should at least give credit where > it is due. > > I like to think of myself as very Daoist in my anarchism. This means > I don't just tear things down Sid Vicious style - a Daoist will always > be critical of institutions certainly, but I think would also be able > to recognise where they have their important place, so that the said > criticisms actually serve to make the institutions stronger in the > face of change. > > TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. It gives a > lot of people a taste of something very deep that they probably would > not have tasted without it. If it simply adds to those advantages a > clear path to a deeper understanding of where it itself came from, and > hence encouraging all who learn it to move beyond it, a change which > is easier to make happen if its good sides are also honoured, surely > no-one would have any problems with wishing the TCM juggernaut all the > best on its steroidal worldwide growth? I'm not necessarily > disagreeing with Fruenauf that that the deeper roots are dying, but > that we may perhaps be able to use this superficial repletion to our > advantage. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ceaseless change is one of the fundamental principles on which TCM is based. Hard to know at this close view whether it is healthy or not. Only time will tell. IMO, opinions about the state of TCM today reflect more on the world view/personality of the person voicing them than on anything else. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 I would agree and don't know if this true historically but the what is a true CM or TCM seems to preoccupy many discussions. Unfortunately, economics suggest a push in one direction dictates a pull from another. People defending thier turf and livelyhood can make for pretty knarly fights. The trick- which I think we attempt to do on CHA- is to allow a multiplicity of viewpoints. Attempting to make CM into one practice or correct view will not work. doug , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > Ceaseless change is one of the fundamental principles on which TCM is > based. Hard to know at this close view whether it is healthy or not. > Only time will tell. IMO, opinions about the state of TCM today > reflect more on the world view/personality of the person voicing them > than on anything else. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 I have not read the entire article but looked at the table. Do people agree with his characterization of TCM? I do not Oakland, CA 94609 - bianzhengnazi Tuesday, January 24, 2006 1:52 AM Re: The shallowness of modern TCM (and why this is a good thing) Best I can really recommend to answer that one is to go see Heiner: http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm The thing is Fruehauf may indeed have " romantic ideas " , but he also does have more. I think he would actually say it is all too easy to have a professional development system, but we still need more. I agree with him, and that is the point of my writing too, we need both! Li , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. > >>> > And how do you know if it best or not. Do we really have that information available to us? What we have with TCM if nothing else is a professional system that is being looked at.That is what i think is the most important development called TCM. Its all too easy to have romantic attitudes but in our times we need more. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > bianzhengnazi > > Monday, January 23, 2006 10:52 PM > The shallowness of modern TCM (and why this is a good thing) > > > Hello fellow CHA-ers, > > I am seeking your feedback on my essay below. Please keep in mind > that it is only draft and may need to double check on some things, so > if you see anything obviously wrong with it then I am happy to hear > eveything you have to say. Please also note that throughout the > article, I refer to " TCM " in the narrow sense as Fruehauf is using. > > Cheers! > > ---------------- > > I am sympathetic to the concerns of individuals such as Heiner > Fruehauf, that are ardent critics of existing trends in modernization > of CM and the " institutionalized phenomenon presently known as " TCM " > (traditional Chinese medicine) " . The perspective is well summarized > in an introduction to one of Fruehauf's pieces on this topic here > (http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm): > > " This article is based on the conviction that the traditional art of > Oriental medicine is dying--both in mainland China, home of the mother > trunk of the field, and consequently overseas where branches of the > tree are trying to grow. It may be an anachronistic piece, written at > a time when TCM administrators around the world are celebrating major > advances in the field, such as increasing numbers of students, > practitioners, patients, colleges, universities, and hospitals, which > all appear to reflect a booming state of Oriental medicine. But if we > truly respect our tradition as a living organism and listen intently > to the deeper layers of its pulse, it becomes evident that the > original vitality of the system is expiring, although its true > condition may be obscured by a steroidal glow on the surface. " > > As I have written > (http://forums.acupuncture.net.au/viewtopic.php?t=267), what is truly > revolutionary about CM and Chinese philosophy generally is in the way > of seeing and relating it encourages, not just of the practitioner in > diagnosing the patient, but of all of us in relation to the world. At > its root, it shows us how and why it is vitally important for our > health and happiness that the subjective immediacy of all that we > experience be not just immediately written off as unimportant unless > there is a way to objectively verify it (and/or an authority has done > so for us). It suggests that our over-reliance on an undeniably > useful intellectual/conceptual filter in interpreting the world, when > we forget that there is and always has been something before the > filter, leaves a world that is much less worthwhile living in. And as > the TCM community slowly but surely detaches itself from deeply > understanding this basic philosophy from which it itself originally > sprung, it too is in danger of become a lackey (albeit a troublesome > one) of this cold objectifying worldview. > > Nevertheless, I have to take issue with Fruehauf at this point, and > say that I think TCM is a wonderful thing, and an important step in > the continuing evolution of CM into the world. > > Confused? Doubting my sanity? > > The problem with pre-modern Chinese culture, for all its beauty and > depth and spirituality, is that it was incredibly elitist. The gap > between rich and poor, both materially and non-materially, was > probably as large as if not the largest of any other culture in > existence. This meant that people that were lucky enough to have the > background, the contacts, the resources, the money, or maybe just the > sheer individual brilliance, etc to learn and really deeply understand > Daoist internal alchemy and Classical could use the > opportunity to work hard and do so, but many could not even really > begin. For the majority of the population, the culture allowed people > to see that certain things were important and should be respected, but > did not have the resources or political structure to provide the tools > with which the average citizen could really understand why they were > important. The result of such a gap is a people that on average could > be very prone to false superstitious beliefs, because as far as they > could tell the false superstitious and the truly profound looked > exactly the same. That's why when an equalizing opportunity like > Communism (modernity) came along, a great fury was unleashed from the > lowest classes of the Chinese people against that in traditional > culture they saw they had been long denied real access to. > > TCM could be seen in a similar vein. It is fairly well established by > now that " bian zheng lun zhi " or anything resembling that ideal was > not what the majority of those that dispensed herbs and practiced > acupuncture took heed of. It instead was again a mark of the elite - > the educated scholar-physicians that had the time, resources, and > access to the texts that allowed them to develop a deep understanding > of its principles, and those lucky enough to find themselves to be > able to learn personally from great practitioners and/or Daoist > masters. There could not have been many of these in number, given > what we already know, able to read Chinese or no, is the great > difficulty of getting large numbers of people to understand what > classics are about. Many practitioners would > probably have been " fang shi " , specialists in tried and true formula > that they applied more or less symptomatically. Good medicine I'm > sure, but still not bian zheng. > > And so, if " bian zheng lun zhi " was for the elite, the greatest > achievement of TCM was to be able to translate it into an accessible > format for the masses. That is what modernity at its noblest has > always been able to do, to level the playing field and give more > people of different births and backgrounds better contact with what is > the highest in their culture. There are many downsides to modernity > and the over-reliance on conceptual rationality that it tends to > encourage of course, but surely we should at least give credit where > it is due. > > I like to think of myself as very Daoist in my anarchism. This means > I don't just tear things down Sid Vicious style - a Daoist will always > be critical of institutions certainly, but I think would also be able > to recognise where they have their important place, so that the said > criticisms actually serve to make the institutions stronger in the > face of change. > > TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. It gives a > lot of people a taste of something very deep that they probably would > not have tasted without it. If it simply adds to those advantages a > clear path to a deeper understanding of where it itself came from, and > hence encouraging all who learn it to move beyond it, a change which > is easier to make happen if its good sides are also honoured, surely > no-one would have any problems with wishing the TCM juggernaut all the > best on its steroidal worldwide growth? I'm not necessarily > disagreeing with Fruenauf that that the deeper roots are dying, but > that we may perhaps be able to use this superficial repletion to our > advantage. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 I suppose that this chart reflects the face of TCM that the Chinese government favors for the sake of worldwide credibility. However as it is practiced by those whom I most respect, they're not quite as romantic as the left column in this graph, but clearly they are more connected to the the TCM of pre-western influence that is suggested by this chart. -al. On 1/24/06, <alonmarcus wrote: > > I have not read the entire article but looked at the table. Do people > agree with his characterization of TCM? I do not > > -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Alon, I also do not agree with Heiner's description of so-called TCM (and I have argued this with him when he first published this table several years ago). Like everyone, Heiner has his own biases and agenda. I do agree with Roger that the practitioner's intelligence and problem-solving ability is a limiting factor in one's ability to do bian zheng lun zhi style CM. I would also add that another limiting factor is one's erudition in the Chinese medical literature. The premodern literature has always been there to read. It is an individual's own short-coming if they are not well read in that literature. In other words, nobody's fault but their own, whether that be in the PRC or the US of A. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 He flatly admonished me to curb my faith in the efficacy of Chinese medicine. >>>>>>> The question here is this kind of statement based on lack of knowledge of based on experience? Oakland, CA 94609 - bianzhengnazi Tuesday, January 24, 2006 1:52 AM Re: The shallowness of modern TCM (and why this is a good thing) Best I can really recommend to answer that one is to go see Heiner: http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm The thing is Fruehauf may indeed have " romantic ideas " , but he also does have more. I think he would actually say it is all too easy to have a professional development system, but we still need more. I agree with him, and that is the point of my writing too, we need both! Li , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. > >>> > And how do you know if it best or not. Do we really have that information available to us? What we have with TCM if nothing else is a professional system that is being looked at.That is what i think is the most important development called TCM. Its all too easy to have romantic attitudes but in our times we need more. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > bianzhengnazi > > Monday, January 23, 2006 10:52 PM > The shallowness of modern TCM (and why this is a good thing) > > > Hello fellow CHA-ers, > > I am seeking your feedback on my essay below. Please keep in mind > that it is only draft and may need to double check on some things, so > if you see anything obviously wrong with it then I am happy to hear > eveything you have to say. Please also note that throughout the > article, I refer to " TCM " in the narrow sense as Fruehauf is using. > > Cheers! > > ---------------- > > I am sympathetic to the concerns of individuals such as Heiner > Fruehauf, that are ardent critics of existing trends in modernization > of CM and the " institutionalized phenomenon presently known as " TCM " > (traditional Chinese medicine) " . The perspective is well summarized > in an introduction to one of Fruehauf's pieces on this topic here > (http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm): > > " This article is based on the conviction that the traditional art of > Oriental medicine is dying--both in mainland China, home of the mother > trunk of the field, and consequently overseas where branches of the > tree are trying to grow. It may be an anachronistic piece, written at > a time when TCM administrators around the world are celebrating major > advances in the field, such as increasing numbers of students, > practitioners, patients, colleges, universities, and hospitals, which > all appear to reflect a booming state of Oriental medicine. But if we > truly respect our tradition as a living organism and listen intently > to the deeper layers of its pulse, it becomes evident that the > original vitality of the system is expiring, although its true > condition may be obscured by a steroidal glow on the surface. " > > As I have written > (http://forums.acupuncture.net.au/viewtopic.php?t=267), what is truly > revolutionary about CM and Chinese philosophy generally is in the way > of seeing and relating it encourages, not just of the practitioner in > diagnosing the patient, but of all of us in relation to the world. At > its root, it shows us how and why it is vitally important for our > health and happiness that the subjective immediacy of all that we > experience be not just immediately written off as unimportant unless > there is a way to objectively verify it (and/or an authority has done > so for us). It suggests that our over-reliance on an undeniably > useful intellectual/conceptual filter in interpreting the world, when > we forget that there is and always has been something before the > filter, leaves a world that is much less worthwhile living in. And as > the TCM community slowly but surely detaches itself from deeply > understanding this basic philosophy from which it itself originally > sprung, it too is in danger of become a lackey (albeit a troublesome > one) of this cold objectifying worldview. > > Nevertheless, I have to take issue with Fruehauf at this point, and > say that I think TCM is a wonderful thing, and an important step in > the continuing evolution of CM into the world. > > Confused? Doubting my sanity? > > The problem with pre-modern Chinese culture, for all its beauty and > depth and spirituality, is that it was incredibly elitist. The gap > between rich and poor, both materially and non-materially, was > probably as large as if not the largest of any other culture in > existence. This meant that people that were lucky enough to have the > background, the contacts, the resources, the money, or maybe just the > sheer individual brilliance, etc to learn and really deeply understand > Daoist internal alchemy and Classical could use the > opportunity to work hard and do so, but many could not even really > begin. For the majority of the population, the culture allowed people > to see that certain things were important and should be respected, but > did not have the resources or political structure to provide the tools > with which the average citizen could really understand why they were > important. The result of such a gap is a people that on average could > be very prone to false superstitious beliefs, because as far as they > could tell the false superstitious and the truly profound looked > exactly the same. That's why when an equalizing opportunity like > Communism (modernity) came along, a great fury was unleashed from the > lowest classes of the Chinese people against that in traditional > culture they saw they had been long denied real access to. > > TCM could be seen in a similar vein. It is fairly well established by > now that " bian zheng lun zhi " or anything resembling that ideal was > not what the majority of those that dispensed herbs and practiced > acupuncture took heed of. It instead was again a mark of the elite - > the educated scholar-physicians that had the time, resources, and > access to the texts that allowed them to develop a deep understanding > of its principles, and those lucky enough to find themselves to be > able to learn personally from great practitioners and/or Daoist > masters. There could not have been many of these in number, given > what we already know, able to read Chinese or no, is the great > difficulty of getting large numbers of people to understand what > classics are about. Many practitioners would > probably have been " fang shi " , specialists in tried and true formula > that they applied more or less symptomatically. Good medicine I'm > sure, but still not bian zheng. > > And so, if " bian zheng lun zhi " was for the elite, the greatest > achievement of TCM was to be able to translate it into an accessible > format for the masses. That is what modernity at its noblest has > always been able to do, to level the playing field and give more > people of different births and backgrounds better contact with what is > the highest in their culture. There are many downsides to modernity > and the over-reliance on conceptual rationality that it tends to > encourage of course, but surely we should at least give credit where > it is due. > > I like to think of myself as very Daoist in my anarchism. This means > I don't just tear things down Sid Vicious style - a Daoist will always > be critical of institutions certainly, but I think would also be able > to recognise where they have their important place, so that the said > criticisms actually serve to make the institutions stronger in the > face of change. > > TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. It gives a > lot of people a taste of something very deep that they probably would > not have tasted without it. If it simply adds to those advantages a > clear path to a deeper understanding of where it itself came from, and > hence encouraging all who learn it to move beyond it, a change which > is easier to make happen if its good sides are also honoured, surely > no-one would have any problems with wishing the TCM juggernaut all the > best on its steroidal worldwide growth? I'm not necessarily > disagreeing with Fruenauf that that the deeper roots are dying, but > that we may perhaps be able to use this superficial repletion to our > advantage. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 well put, as usual. On Jan 23, 2006, at 11:52 PM, bianzhengnazi wrote: > Hello fellow CHA-ers, > > I am seeking your feedback on my essay below. Please keep in mind > that it is only draft and may need to double check on some things, so > if you see anything obviously wrong with it then I am happy to hear > eveything you have to say. Please also note that throughout the > article, I refer to " TCM " in the narrow sense as Fruehauf is using. > > Cheers! > > ---------------- > > I am sympathetic to the concerns of individuals such as Heiner > Fruehauf, that are ardent critics of existing trends in modernization > of CM and the " institutionalized phenomenon presently known as " TCM " > (traditional Chinese medicine) " . The perspective is well summarized > in an introduction to one of Fruehauf's pieces on this topic here > (http://www.classicalchinesemedicine.org/ccm/tcmgermany05.htm): > > " This article is based on the conviction that the traditional art of > Oriental medicine is dying--both in mainland China, home of the mother > trunk of the field, and consequently overseas where branches of the > tree are trying to grow. It may be an anachronistic piece, written at > a time when TCM administrators around the world are celebrating major > advances in the field, such as increasing numbers of students, > practitioners, patients, colleges, universities, and hospitals, which > all appear to reflect a booming state of Oriental medicine. But if we > truly respect our tradition as a living organism and listen intently > to the deeper layers of its pulse, it becomes evident that the > original vitality of the system is expiring, although its true > condition may be obscured by a steroidal glow on the surface. " > > As I have written > (http://forums.acupuncture.net.au/viewtopic.php?t=267), what is truly > revolutionary about CM and Chinese philosophy generally is in the way > of seeing and relating it encourages, not just of the practitioner in > diagnosing the patient, but of all of us in relation to the world. At > its root, it shows us how and why it is vitally important for our > health and happiness that the subjective immediacy of all that we > experience be not just immediately written off as unimportant unless > there is a way to objectively verify it (and/or an authority has done > so for us). It suggests that our over-reliance on an undeniably > useful intellectual/conceptual filter in interpreting the world, when > we forget that there is and always has been something before the > filter, leaves a world that is much less worthwhile living in. And as > the TCM community slowly but surely detaches itself from deeply > understanding this basic philosophy from which it itself originally > sprung, it too is in danger of become a lackey (albeit a troublesome > one) of this cold objectifying worldview. > > Nevertheless, I have to take issue with Fruehauf at this point, and > say that I think TCM is a wonderful thing, and an important step in > the continuing evolution of CM into the world. > > Confused? Doubting my sanity? > > The problem with pre-modern Chinese culture, for all its beauty and > depth and spirituality, is that it was incredibly elitist. The gap > between rich and poor, both materially and non-materially, was > probably as large as if not the largest of any other culture in > existence. This meant that people that were lucky enough to have the > background, the contacts, the resources, the money, or maybe just the > sheer individual brilliance, etc to learn and really deeply understand > Daoist internal alchemy and Classical could use the > opportunity to work hard and do so, but many could not even really > begin. For the majority of the population, the culture allowed people > to see that certain things were important and should be respected, but > did not have the resources or political structure to provide the tools > with which the average citizen could really understand why they were > important. The result of such a gap is a people that on average could > be very prone to false superstitious beliefs, because as far as they > could tell the false superstitious and the truly profound looked > exactly the same. That's why when an equalizing opportunity like > Communism (modernity) came along, a great fury was unleashed from the > lowest classes of the Chinese people against that in traditional > culture they saw they had been long denied real access to. > > TCM could be seen in a similar vein. It is fairly well established by > now that " bian zheng lun zhi " or anything resembling that ideal was > not what the majority of those that dispensed herbs and practiced > acupuncture took heed of. It instead was again a mark of the elite – > the educated scholar-physicians that had the time, resources, and > access to the texts that allowed them to develop a deep understanding > of its principles, and those lucky enough to find themselves to be > able to learn personally from great practitioners and/or Daoist > masters. There could not have been many of these in number, given > what we already know, able to read Chinese or no, is the great > difficulty of getting large numbers of people to understand what > classics are about. Many practitioners would > probably have been " fang shi " , specialists in tried and true formula > that they applied more or less symptomatically. Good medicine I'm > sure, but still not bian zheng. > > And so, if " bian zheng lun zhi " was for the elite, the greatest > achievement of TCM was to be able to translate it into an accessible > format for the masses. That is what modernity at its noblest has > always been able to do, to level the playing field and give more > people of different births and backgrounds better contact with what is > the highest in their culture. There are many downsides to modernity > and the over-reliance on conceptual rationality that it tends to > encourage of course, but surely we should at least give credit where > it is due. > > I like to think of myself as very Daoist in my anarchism. This means > I don't just tear things down Sid Vicious style - a Daoist will always > be critical of institutions certainly, but I think would also be able > to recognise where they have their important place, so that the said > criticisms actually serve to make the institutions stronger in the > face of change. > > TCM works. It's not the best, but it is a starting point. It gives a > lot of people a taste of something very deep that they probably would > not have tasted without it. If it simply adds to those advantages a > clear path to a deeper understanding of where it itself came from, and > hence encouraging all who learn it to move beyond it, a change which > is easier to make happen if its good sides are also honoured, surely > no-one would have any problems with wishing the TCM juggernaut all the > best on its steroidal worldwide growth? I'm not necessarily > disagreeing with Fruenauf that that the deeper roots are dying, but > that we may perhaps be able to use this superficial repletion to our > advantage. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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