Western and Eastern Medical Language

[Guest guest]

Today at the New England School of Acupuncture Jeffrey Yuen explained that the

Stomach has fire and the Spleen has yang, that the hydrochloric stomach fire

digests (only) protein and operates in an acidic environment and the enzymes of

Spleen yang digest sugar/carbohydrates and operate in an alkaline environment.

This was a small moment in a much longer discourse, but it illustrates an

important point about medical language. More important than taking a stand on

one or another system of translating terms -- as if either east or west could be

considered in itself complete -- the effective practitioner uses one system to

illustrate the other. If what makes Traditional Chinese Medical language

precious is its use of metaphor, then the exercise of that medical intuition par

excellence is the turning of western biomedical chemical abstractions into

concrete options for treatment and lifestyle adjustment by implicating them in

the natural graphic power of Chinese medicine. This is the

metaphoric power in its purest form. What makes Jeffrey Yuen perhaps the most

successful communicator of at work in our time is that he is

completely uninhibited by conceptual distinctions of any kind. Because his

grounding in Su Wen and the history of Chinese medicine is unquestioned, when he

explains how Ph imbalance engenders cardiac stress because excess or undigested

protein passes into the small intestines and from there into the blood, nobody

cares whether he at that moment speaks language A, B, or C. The beauty of the

situation is that he can use western concepts clearly enough to create workable

perceptions without getting bogged down in fourteen debatable studies at major

university health centers. What matters is that people see why they got sick

and how they can get better, or at least understand wherein and to what degree

their physical karma results from their own choices past and present. -- And

yes, if some aspect of health came from the

womb, that too needs to be acknowledged, though even then Jeffrey Yuen will say

that a choice was made during gestation to accept the incarnation. When this

explanation is given, along with expert treatment that makes clear to the body

what the language made clear to the mind, we have what could be called

excellent doctor/patient interaction. People who can bring about these

interactions, I venture to say, will not go hungry, regardless of the city in

which they practice.

 

 

Yours, Carl Ploss

 

P.S. One of life's little dui yao's: cheese and wasabi peas! try it.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Carl,

 

I agree with you about the wasabi peas. Great!

 

But I think statements like " the enzymes of Spleen yang digest

sugar/carbohydrates and operate in an alkaline environment " make us

sound something less than intelligent about human physiology. I have

no trouble talking about the Spleen and its energetic functions and

environmental factors. Chinese medicine already has a beautiful

metaphoric language.

 

IMHO too many practitioners put their personal experience and critical

thinking caps aside when Jeffery speaks.

 

Be well...mm

 

 

, carl ploss <cploss wrote:

>

>

> Today at the New England School of Acupuncture Jeffrey Yuen

explained that the Stomach has fire and the Spleen has yang, that the

hydrochloric stomach fire digests (only) protein and operates in an

acidic environment and the enzymes of Spleen yang digest

sugar/carbohydrates and operate in an alkaline environment.

> P.S. One of life's little dui yao's: cheese and wasabi peas!

try it.

>

[Guest guest]

" IMHO too many practitioners put their personal experience and critical

thinking caps aside when Jeffery speaks. "

 

I have also thought this for some time now. Yuen Yi-sheng makes some

pretty interesting claims in establishing his credentials as an

authority on CM. Yet I doubt anyone has ever attempted to

independently verify these claims. Mind you, I'm not saying they are

false. What I am getting at here is that, as a group, we tend, IMO, to

be somewhat gullible. In my experience, we tend as a group not to

demand much in the way of proof. Anyone can make any cross-system

claims they want to, but it is the listeners responsibility to require

some sort of proof or evidence supporting those claims.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

I agree, but there was nothing too earth (no pun intended) shattering

here. Pancreas functions in sugar metabolism and the stomach is a

vessel for HCl. I think the only credentials necessary for those

particular statements are successful completion of the 10th grade.

Admittedly this was but a snippet of the lecture and Bob's comments

likely ring true for the rest.

 

-Tim Sharpe

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

but it is the listeners responsibility to require

> some sort of proof or evidence supporting those claims.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

I've observed his workshops at Pacific Symposium, packed with

several hundred students, avidly writing down every statement,

looking in awe at the teacher. I've thought about this from time to

time, and have come to the following reflections.

 

1) I agree, there seems to be a lack of critical faculty among his

students. There is little questioning or discussion of his material

at his seminars.

 

2) He mixes metaphors very freely, but doesn't give any specific

sources for most of his material.

 

3) His style of teaching is that of an oracle. The information seems

to flow out through him, and is often quite inspiring. He does make

very interesting connections, but as you point out, how many of these

connections are confirmed either in Chinese or Western medicine? If

he is proposing innovation, how do his students and followers plan to

test or confirm these proposals?

 

Without adequate education and critical faculties on the part of

students and practitioners, Yuen Yi-sheng's teachings will ultimately

be limited in their influence. For example, I am very interested in

the potential uses of essential oils in Chinese medicine, but can one

individual (Yuen) really design an entire system by himself,

including all the Chinese descriptions of each (qi, flavor,

temperature, actions, channels, etc.)? I would feel much better if

Yuen Yi-sheng simply offered his material as his own investigations,

humbly given to be tested and tried by fellow practitioners, rather

than as a ready-made system for practice without critique or caution.

 

 

On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:19 AM, Bob Flaws wrote:

 

> " IMHO too many practitioners put their personal experience and

> critical

> thinking caps aside when Jeffery speaks. "

>

> I have also thought this for some time now. Yuen Yi-sheng makes some

> pretty interesting claims in establishing his credentials as an

> authority on CM. Yet I doubt anyone has ever attempted to

> independently verify these claims. Mind you, I'm not saying they are

> false. What I am getting at here is that, as a group, we tend, IMO, to

> be somewhat gullible. In my experience, we tend as a group not to

> demand much in the way of proof. Anyone can make any cross-system

> claims they want to, but it is the listeners responsibility to require

> some sort of proof or evidence supporting those claims.

>

> Bob

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've long thought that the value of Jeffery Yuan is in his Taoism.

 

I believe that his true offering to our community is in teaching how to

live, not clinical interactions. He uses our medicine as a analogy to get

his point across, but the value is in his point, not in the points used to

make his point. ha ha. Sorry, too complex a sentence there.

 

In other words, he teaches philosophy, not OM. He actually does teach some

OM, and I have no particular criticism of that, not having seen or heard it

first hand, but for the psycho-spiritual applications, those things that

he's famous for, he's really teaching some good stuff, but not what people

think that he's teaching.

 

For instance, I might say that yin and yang arise together, and only through

balance are we going to see health maintained. How do we balance yin and

yang? Well, its important that when you spread peanut butter on bread, you

must also add jelly to balance the peanut butter. Thing is, this is an

analogy, not a cooking lesson!

 

So, off run the students thinking that peanut butter and jelly will

harmonize yin and yang. Get it? Its a great analogy to what he teaches, but

people get all caught up in the analogy and miss the teaching.

 

I think that J. Yuan has much to offer, but I don't believe that it is

clinically relevant, rather it is philosophy to treat the mind and spirit,

not the spirit of our patients, but the spirit of the practitioner.

 

-al.

 

On 2/27/06, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Bob,

> I've observed his workshops at Pacific Symposium, packed with

> several hundred students, avidly writing down every statement,

> looking in awe at the teacher. I've thought about this from time to

> time, and have come to the following reflections.

 

 

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bob

As a profession we do not do much critical thinking of any of the info we get

including what is considered mainstream sources. I think the mindset of hero

worshiping is very strong within our profession, personal and systemic

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Bob Flaws

Monday, February 27, 2006 8:19 AM

Re: Western and Eastern Medical Language

 

 

" IMHO too many practitioners put their personal experience and critical

thinking caps aside when Jeffery speaks. "

 

I have also thought this for some time now. Yuen Yi-sheng makes some

pretty interesting claims in establishing his credentials as an

authority on CM. Yet I doubt anyone has ever attempted to

independently verify these claims. Mind you, I'm not saying they are

false. What I am getting at here is that, as a group, we tend, IMO, to

be somewhat gullible. In my experience, we tend as a group not to

demand much in the way of proof. Anyone can make any cross-system

claims they want to, but it is the listeners responsibility to require

some sort of proof or evidence supporting those claims.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I understand and respect that. I feel that philosophy is very

important in medicine, East and West. My favorite Western physician

is Sir William Osler, who is also a great philosopher. I think we

need more of that, and that is one reason why Jeffrey Yuen/Yuen Yi-

sheng is so popular.

 

However, I think it is very important, when teaching, to separate

one's personal philosophy and spiritual practice from the actual

medicine being taught. Otherwise, it leads to confusion. Represent

the subject accurately, with source materials, then add one's own

perspectives to the subject.

 

 

On Feb 27, 2006, at 12:40 PM, Al Stone wrote:

 

> In other words, he teaches philosophy, not OM. He actually does

> teach some

> OM, and I have no particular criticism of that, not having seen or

> heard it

> first hand, but for the psycho-spiritual applications, those things

> that

> he's famous for, he's really teaching some good stuff, but not what

> people

> think that he's teaching.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> this reminds me of when- many years ago, when tri-state was still on CT, Bob

> had the lack of temerity to say that when he lectured, he would have a

> cheeseburger and a martini at lunch to nourish the yin. Because teaching

> injures the lung yin.

>

> I had to spend the better part of an afternoon putting out the fire on that

> one. The students ( not all of them) could not see the humor in his comment,

> had issues with the idea of him not eating brown rice and tofu. And on and on.

>

> Bob- if you can handle a martini and still teach- more power to you. But I

> know you were just making a point.

>

> Cara

>

> For instance, I might say that yin and yang arise together, and only through

> balance are we going to see health maintained. How do we balance yin and

> yang? Well, its important that when you spread peanut butter on bread, you

> must also add jelly to balance the peanut butter. Thing is, this is an

> analogy, not a cooking lesson!

>

> So, off run the students thinking that peanut butter and jelly will

> harmonize yin and yang. Get it? Its a great analogy to what he teaches, but

> people get all caught up in the analogy and miss the teaching.

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

Agreed.

 

Bob

 

, " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Bob,

> I've observed his workshops at Pacific Symposium, packed with

> several hundred students, avidly writing down every statement,

> looking in awe at the teacher. I've thought about this from time to

> time, and have come to the following reflections.

>

> 1) I agree, there seems to be a lack of critical faculty among his

> students. There is little questioning or discussion of his material

> at his seminars.

>

> 2) He mixes metaphors very freely, but doesn't give any specific

> sources for most of his material.

>

> 3) His style of teaching is that of an oracle. The information seems

> to flow out through him, and is often quite inspiring. He does make

> very interesting connections, but as you point out, how many of these

> connections are confirmed either in Chinese or Western medicine? If

> he is proposing innovation, how do his students and followers plan to

> test or confirm these proposals?

>

> Without adequate education and critical faculties on the part of

> students and practitioners, Yuen Yi-sheng's teachings will ultimately

> be limited in their influence. For example, I am very interested in

> the potential uses of essential oils in Chinese medicine, but can one

> individual (Yuen) really design an entire system by himself,

> including all the Chinese descriptions of each (qi, flavor,

> temperature, actions, channels, etc.)? I would feel much better if

> Yuen Yi-sheng simply offered his material as his own investigations,

> humbly given to be tested and tried by fellow practitioners, rather

> than as a ready-made system for practice without critique or caution.

>

>

> On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:19 AM, Bob Flaws wrote:

>

> > " IMHO too many practitioners put their personal experience and

> > critical

> > thinking caps aside when Jeffery speaks. "

> >

> > I have also thought this for some time now. Yuen Yi-sheng makes some

> > pretty interesting claims in establishing his credentials as an

> > authority on CM. Yet I doubt anyone has ever attempted to

> > independently verify these claims. Mind you, I'm not saying they are

> > false. What I am getting at here is that, as a group, we tend, IMO, to

> > be somewhat gullible. In my experience, we tend as a group not to

> > demand much in the way of proof. Anyone can make any cross-system

> > claims they want to, but it is the listeners responsibility to require

> > some sort of proof or evidence supporting those claims.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services,

> > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual

> > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Cara,

 

Thanks for the reminder on that one. I need to use it again some time.

 

Bob

 

> > this reminds me of when- many years ago, when tri-state was still

on CT, Bob

> > had the lack of temerity to say that when he lectured, he would have a

> > cheeseburger and a martini at lunch to nourish the yin. Because

teaching

> > injures the lung yin.

> >

> > I had to spend the better part of an afternoon putting out the

fire on that

> > one. The students ( not all of them) could not see the humor in

his comment,

> > had issues with the idea of him not eating brown rice and tofu.

And on and on.

> >

> > Bob- if you can handle a martini and still teach- more power to

you. But I

> > know you were just making a point.

> >

> > Cara

> >

> > For instance, I might say that yin and yang arise together, and

only through

> > balance are we going to see health maintained. How do we balance

yin and

> > yang? Well, its important that when you spread peanut butter on

bread, you

> > must also add jelly to balance the peanut butter. Thing is, this is an

> > analogy, not a cooking lesson!

> >

> > So, off run the students thinking that peanut butter and jelly will

> > harmonize yin and yang. Get it? Its a great analogy to what he

teaches, but

> > people get all caught up in the analogy and miss the teaching.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are welcome. Oy vey! It was quite the rant!

anyway- I prefer mine with a twist. And some wasabi peas on the side ( to

resolve phlegm of course:-)

C

 

 

 

 

> Cara,

>

> Thanks for the reminder on that one. I need to use it again some time.

>

> Bob

>

>>> > > this reminds me of when- many years ago, when tri-state was still

> on CT, Bob

>>> > > had the lack of temerity to say that when he lectured, he would have a

>>> > > cheeseburger and a martini at lunch to nourish the yin. Because

> teaching

>>> > > injures the lung yin.

>>> > >

>>> > > I had to spend the better part of an afternoon putting out the

> fire on that

>>> > > one. The students ( not all of them) could not see the humor in

> his comment,

>>> > > had issues with the idea of him not eating brown rice and tofu.

> And on and on.

>>> > >

>>> > > Bob- if you can handle a martini and still teach- more power to

> you. But I

>>> > > know you were just making a point.

>>> > >

>>> > > Cara

>>> > >

>>> > > For instance, I might say that yin and yang arise together, and

> only through

>>> > > balance are we going to see health maintained. How do we balance

> yin and

>>> > > yang? Well, its important that when you spread peanut butter on

> bread, you

>>> > > must also add jelly to balance the peanut butter. Thing is, this is an

>>> > > analogy, not a cooking lesson!

>>> > >

>>> > > So, off run the students thinking that peanut butter and jelly will

>>> > > harmonize yin and yang. Get it? Its a great analogy to what he

> teaches, but

>>> > > people get all caught up in the analogy and miss the teaching.

>>> > >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >