Guest guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Marvelous to find support for one's life-process in herbs! As a school teacher there are times when one's work is controlled by intangible forces like rumour and reputation, conversations outside of one's hearing, reactions and understandings as parents, other teachers, and administrators involve themselves in the lives of one's students. These processes are unavoidable. When something happens within one's own presence or " space " , the liver and spleen metabolize the outcome. Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan helps manage these stresses by giving one flexibility of response and thereby potentiating clarity of thought. Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or shouldn't be considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined for liver to take root in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu Ping Feng San, secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage rumour as an airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell internal wind, i.e., to keep things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if they had. Crucial! Yu Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to change what I can change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. " Carl Ploss Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Carl, Carl, Carl... that weekend with Jeffery Yuen sure seems to have grabbed your mind and given it a good shake. Your description below reminds me nothing other than discussing Bob Dylan lyrics circa ... whenever. What is he really trying to say? This song is about... no, really, it's about... Ascribing these properties to the formulas involves the same kind of imagination, can we say that the herbs are Really about this or that when approached in this manner? Still, can we be sure they aren't. Interesting work. doug , carl ploss <cploss wrote: > > > Marvelous to find support for one's life-process in herbs! > > As a school teacher there are times when one's work is controlled by intangible forces like rumour and reputation, conversations outside of one's hearing, reactions and understandings as parents, other teachers, and administrators involve themselves in the lives of one's students. These processes are unavoidable. > > When something happens within one's own presence or " space " , the liver and spleen metabolize the outcome. Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan helps manage these stresses by giving one flexibility of response and thereby potentiating clarity of thought. > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or shouldn't be considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined for liver to take root in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu Ping Feng San, secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage rumour as an airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell internal wind, i.e., to keep things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if they had. Crucial! Yu Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to change what I can change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. " > > Carl Ploss > > > > Mail > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or shouldn't be considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined for liver to take root in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu Ping Feng San, secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage rumour as an airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell internal wind, i.e., to keep things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if they had. Crucial! Yu Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to change what I can change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. " >>>>>> Really does sound like thought detox is needed Oakland, CA 94609 - Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:51 PM Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy Carl, Carl, Carl... that weekend with Jeffery Yuen sure seems to have grabbed your mind and given it a good shake. Your description below reminds me nothing other than discussing Bob Dylan lyrics circa ... whenever. What is he really trying to say? This song is about... no, really, it's about... Ascribing these properties to the formulas involves the same kind of imagination, can we say that the herbs are Really about this or that when approached in this manner? Still, can we be sure they aren't. Interesting work. doug , carl ploss <cploss wrote: > > > Marvelous to find support for one's life-process in herbs! > > As a school teacher there are times when one's work is controlled by intangible forces like rumour and reputation, conversations outside of one's hearing, reactions and understandings as parents, other teachers, and administrators involve themselves in the lives of one's students. These processes are unavoidable. > > When something happens within one's own presence or " space " , the liver and spleen metabolize the outcome. Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan helps manage these stresses by giving one flexibility of response and thereby potentiating clarity of thought. > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or shouldn't be considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined for liver to take root in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu Ping Feng San, secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage rumour as an airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell internal wind, i.e., to keep things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if they had. Crucial! Yu Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to change what I can change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. " > > Carl Ploss > > > > Mail > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 thought detox... long dan xie gan or Ma zi ren tang? doug , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or shouldn't be > considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined for liver to take root > in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu Ping Feng San, > secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage rumour as an > airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell internal wind, i.e., to keep > things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if they had. Crucial! Yu > Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to change what I can > change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the > difference. " > >>>>>> > Really does sound like thought detox is needed > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:51 PM > Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > Carl, Carl, Carl... that weekend with Jeffery Yuen sure seems to have grabbed your mind > and given it a good shake. Your description below reminds me nothing other than > discussing Bob Dylan lyrics circa ... whenever. What is he really trying to say? This song is > about... no, really, it's about... > Ascribing these properties to the formulas involves the same kind of imagination, can we > say that the herbs are Really about this or that when approached in this manner? Still, can > we be sure they aren't. Interesting work. > doug > > , carl ploss <cploss@> wrote: > > > > > > Marvelous to find support for one's life-process in herbs! > > > > As a school teacher there are times when one's work is controlled by intangible forces > like rumour and reputation, conversations outside of one's hearing, reactions and > understandings as parents, other teachers, and administrators involve themselves in the > lives of one's students. These processes are unavoidable. > > > > When something happens within one's own presence or " space " , the liver and spleen > metabolize the outcome. Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan helps manage these stresses by giving one > flexibility of response and thereby potentiating clarity of thought. > > > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or shouldn't be > considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined for liver to take root > in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu Ping Feng San, > secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage rumour as an > airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell internal wind, i.e., to keep > things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if they had. Crucial! Yu > Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to change what I can > change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the > difference. " > > > > Carl Ploss > > > > > > > > Mail > > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Come on guys, I don't think that's very fair. So when these sort of ideas come out of Jeffrey Yuen or Carl's mouths it is easy to mock or dismiss, but they are hardly the only ones to attribute such experiential/emotional characteristics to herbal formula. This is why Ted Kaptchuk uses Gui Zhi Tang for performance anxiety (gently encourages the Wei qi/Yang to not be stuck, and be able to act in the world), or Greg Bantick (ex-of PCOM and SIOM) talks of Xiao Yao San as useful for patients that over-meticulously carry out lifestyle advice because it gently stirs a body/mind with enough provocation to get them to reconsider their assumptions of what is right/what they should be doing, without making too much of a mess of their belief system. I know many people are concerned about students/starting practitioners being a bit too gullible for their own good, and I entirely agree with that sentiment, but the other side is that you have to let them have room to be able to think and judge for themselves when it comes to ideas that are a bit left of centre, you know? IMO, making fun of them doesn't help. -Li -- Knowing ignorance is strength; ignoring knowledge is sickness. -Tao te ching On 3/8/06, wrote: > > > thought detox... long dan xie gan or Ma zi ren tang? > doug > > , " " > <alonmarcus > > wrote: > > > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or > shouldn't be > > considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined for > liver to take > root > > in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu > Ping Feng San, > > secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage > rumour as an > > airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell > internal wind, i.e., to > keep > > things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if they > had. Crucial! Yu > > Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to > change what I can > > change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to > know the > > difference. " > > >>>>>> > > Really does sound like thought detox is needed > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > > > > > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:51 PM > > Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > > > > Carl, Carl, Carl... that weekend with Jeffery Yuen sure seems to have > grabbed your > mind > > and given it a good shake. Your description below reminds me nothing > other than > > discussing Bob Dylan lyrics circa ... whenever. What is he really > trying to say? This song > is > > about... no, really, it's about... > > Ascribing these properties to the formulas involves the same kind of > imagination, can > we > > say that the herbs are Really about this or that when approached in > this manner? Still, > can > > we be sure they aren't. Interesting work. > > doug > > > > , carl ploss <cploss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Marvelous to find support for one's life-process in herbs! > > > > > > As a school teacher there are times when one's work is controlled > by intangible > forces > > like rumour and reputation, conversations outside of one's hearing, > reactions and > > understandings as parents, other teachers, and administrators involve > themselves in > the > > lives of one's students. These processes are unavoidable. > > > > > > When something happens within one's own presence or " space " , the > liver and > spleen > > metabolize the outcome. Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan helps manage these > stresses by giving > one > > flexibility of response and thereby potentiating clarity of thought. > > > > > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or > shouldn't be > > considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined > for liver to take > root > > in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu > Ping Feng San, > > secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage > rumour as an > > airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell > internal wind, i.e., to > keep > > things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if > they had. Crucial! > Yu > > Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to > change what I can > > change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to > know the > > difference. " > > > > > > Carl Ploss > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 The fact that these people " use " these formulas in these ways is not the same as these formulas truly have these effects. I would like to see historical as well as research based evidence that these formulas have been and are being used effectively in these ways. I would love to think xiao yao san could really do that, i would add it to the drinking water. Oakland, CA 94609 - Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:49 AM Re: Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy Come on guys, I don't think that's very fair. So when these sort of ideas come out of Jeffrey Yuen or Carl's mouths it is easy to mock or dismiss, but they are hardly the only ones to attribute such experiential/emotional characteristics to herbal formula. This is why Ted Kaptchuk uses Gui Zhi Tang for performance anxiety (gently encourages the Wei qi/Yang to not be stuck, and be able to act in the world), or Greg Bantick (ex-of PCOM and SIOM) talks of Xiao Yao San as useful for patients that over-meticulously carry out lifestyle advice because it gently stirs a body/mind with enough provocation to get them to reconsider their assumptions of what is right/what they should be doing, without making too much of a mess of their belief system. I know many people are concerned about students/starting practitioners being a bit too gullible for their own good, and I entirely agree with that sentiment, but the other side is that you have to let them have room to be able to think and judge for themselves when it comes to ideas that are a bit left of centre, you know? IMO, making fun of them doesn't help. -Li -- Knowing ignorance is strength; ignoring knowledge is sickness. -Tao te ching On 3/8/06, wrote: > > > thought detox... long dan xie gan or Ma zi ren tang? > doug > > , " " > <alonmarcus > > wrote: > > > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or > shouldn't be > > considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined for > liver to take > root > > in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu > Ping Feng San, > > secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage > rumour as an > > airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell > internal wind, i.e., to > keep > > things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if they > had. Crucial! Yu > > Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to > change what I can > > change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to > know the > > difference. " > > >>>>>> > > Really does sound like thought detox is needed > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > > > > > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:51 PM > > Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > > > > Carl, Carl, Carl... that weekend with Jeffery Yuen sure seems to have > grabbed your > mind > > and given it a good shake. Your description below reminds me nothing > other than > > discussing Bob Dylan lyrics circa ... whenever. What is he really > trying to say? This song > is > > about... no, really, it's about... > > Ascribing these properties to the formulas involves the same kind of > imagination, can > we > > say that the herbs are Really about this or that when approached in > this manner? Still, > can > > we be sure they aren't. Interesting work. > > doug > > > > , carl ploss <cploss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Marvelous to find support for one's life-process in herbs! > > > > > > As a school teacher there are times when one's work is controlled > by intangible > forces > > like rumour and reputation, conversations outside of one's hearing, > reactions and > > understandings as parents, other teachers, and administrators involve > themselves in > the > > lives of one's students. These processes are unavoidable. > > > > > > When something happens within one's own presence or " space " , the > liver and > spleen > > metabolize the outcome. Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan helps manage these > stresses by giving > one > > flexibility of response and thereby potentiating clarity of thought. > > > > > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or > shouldn't be > > considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined > for liver to take > root > > in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., Yu > Ping Feng San, > > secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps manage > rumour as an > > airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell > internal wind, i.e., to > keep > > things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if > they had. Crucial! > Yu > > Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to > change what I can > > change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom to > know the > > difference. " > > > > > > Carl Ploss > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Lionel, I think that was well said. We are faced with patients that have complaints and concerns couched in language outside of traditional Chinese terminology. Some would say that these can be transported back to TCM while others say not. Can we meet the abstraction without the metaphor? In general I try to work within TCM but for sometimes I get bugged by Seriousness and like to take a chance to stretch on placebo/metaphor. Alon, there isn't going to be evidence without someone trying to do it first. Do no harm, right on! doug , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > The fact that these people " use " these formulas in these ways is not the same as these formulas truly have these effects. I would like to see historical as well as research based evidence that these formulas have been and are being used effectively in these ways. I would love to think xiao yao san could really do that, i would add it to the drinking water. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:49 AM > Re: Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > Come on guys, I don't think that's very fair. So when these sort of ideas > come out of Jeffrey Yuen or Carl's mouths it is easy to mock or dismiss, but > they are hardly the only ones to attribute such experiential/emotional > characteristics to herbal formula. This is why Ted Kaptchuk uses Gui Zhi > Tang for performance anxiety (gently encourages the Wei qi/Yang to not be > stuck, and be able to act in the world), or Greg Bantick (ex-of PCOM and > SIOM) talks of Xiao Yao San as useful for patients that over-meticulously > carry out lifestyle advice because it gently stirs a body/mind with enough > provocation to get them to reconsider their assumptions of what is > right/what they should be doing, without making too much of a mess of their > belief system. > > > > I know many people are concerned about students/starting practitioners being > a bit too gullible for their own good, and I entirely agree with that > sentiment, but the other side is that you have to let them have room to be > able to think and judge for themselves when it comes to ideas that are a bit > left of centre, you know? IMO, making fun of them doesn't help. > > -Li > > -- > Knowing ignorance is strength; ignoring knowledge is sickness. > -Tao te ching > > > On 3/8/06, wrote: > > > > > > thought detox... long dan xie gan or Ma zi ren tang? > > doug > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Agreed. Knowing/trusting how Bantick and Kaptchuk work, I am sure it is there (but I don't know myself so I will nevertheless take these ideas with a grain of salt until I can confirm it with my own experience, but heck, I reckon that should be the same with everything I hear about CM). Best, Li On 3/9/06, <alonmarcus wrote: > > The fact that these people " use " these formulas in these ways is not the > same as these formulas truly have these effects. I would like to see > historical as well as research based evidence that these formulas have been > and are being used effectively in these ways. I > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:49 AM > Re: Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > Come on guys, I don't think that's very fair. So when these sort of > ideas > come out of Jeffrey Yuen or Carl's mouths it is easy to mock or dismiss, > but > they are hardly the only ones to attribute such experiential/emotional > characteristics to herbal formula. This is why Ted Kaptchuk uses Gui > Zhi > Tang for performance anxiety (gently encourages the Wei qi/Yang to not > be > stuck, and be able to act in the world), or Greg Bantick (ex-of PCOM and > SIOM) talks of Xiao Yao San as useful for patients that > over-meticulously > carry out lifestyle advice because it gently stirs a body/mind with > enough > provocation to get them to reconsider their assumptions of what is > right/what they should be doing, without making too much of a mess of > their > belief system. > > > > I know many people are concerned about students/starting practitioners > being > a bit too gullible for their own good, and I entirely agree with that > sentiment, but the other side is that you have to let them have room to > be > able to think and judge for themselves when it comes to ideas that are a > bit > left of centre, you know? IMO, making fun of them doesn't help. > > -Li > > -- > Knowing ignorance is strength; ignoring knowledge is sickness. > -Tao te ching > > > On 3/8/06, wrote: > > > > > > thought detox... long dan xie gan or Ma zi ren tang? > > doug > > > > , " " > > <alonmarcus > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't or > > shouldn't be > > > considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough defined > for > > liver to take > > root > > > in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., > Yu > > Ping Feng San, > > > secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps > manage > > rumour as an > > > airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell > > internal wind, i.e., to > > keep > > > things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if > they > > had. Crucial! Yu > > > Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to > > change what I can > > > change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the wisdom > to > > know the > > > difference. " > > > >>>>>> > > > Really does sound like thought detox is needed > > > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:51 PM > > > Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > > > > > > > Carl, Carl, Carl... that weekend with Jeffery Yuen sure seems to > have > > grabbed your > > mind > > > and given it a good shake. Your description below reminds me > nothing > > other than > > > discussing Bob Dylan lyrics circa ... whenever. What is he really > > trying to say? This song > > is > > > about... no, really, it's about... > > > Ascribing these properties to the formulas involves the same kind > of > > imagination, can > > we > > > say that the herbs are Really about this or that when approached > in > > this manner? Still, > > can > > > we be sure they aren't. Interesting work. > > > doug > > > > > > , carl ploss <cploss@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Marvelous to find support for one's life-process in herbs! > > > > > > > > As a school teacher there are times when one's work is > controlled > > by intangible > > forces > > > like rumour and reputation, conversations outside of one's > hearing, > > reactions and > > > understandings as parents, other teachers, and administrators > involve > > themselves in > > the > > > lives of one's students. These processes are unavoidable. > > > > > > > > When something happens within one's own presence or " space " , > the > > liver and > > spleen > > > metabolize the outcome. Jia Wei Xiao Yao Wan helps manage these > > stresses by giving > > one > > > flexibility of response and thereby potentiating clarity of > thought. > > > > > > > > Things that happen outside one's own direct experience aren't > or > > shouldn't be > > > considered stressors because they simply aren't well enough > defined > > for liver to take > > root > > > in them. For things that may have been said, might be said, etc., > Yu > > Ping Feng San, > > > secures identity (spleen yi) in its own thought realm and helps > manage > > rumour as an > > > airborne pathogen -- especially in Siler's unique ability to quell > > internal wind, i.e., to > > keep > > > things that haven't happened from being treated by the liver as if > > they had. Crucial! > > Yu > > > Ping Feng San incarnates the prayer, " Lord, give me the courage to > > change what I can > > > change, the patience to endure what I cannot change, and the > wisdom to > > know the > > > difference. " > > > > > > > > Carl Ploss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mail > > > > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Doug I agree someone always need to be the first, but as far teaching to others or marketing products one needs to show at least good historical evidence. For those that read Chinese in the list how many think these functions are backed up in Chinese literature? Oakland, CA 94609 - Wednesday, March 08, 2006 9:16 AM Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy Lionel, I think that was well said. We are faced with patients that have complaints and concerns couched in language outside of traditional Chinese terminology. Some would say that these can be transported back to TCM while others say not. Can we meet the abstraction without the metaphor? In general I try to work within TCM but for sometimes I get bugged by Seriousness and like to take a chance to stretch on placebo/metaphor. Alon, there isn't going to be evidence without someone trying to do it first. Do no harm, right on! doug , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > The fact that these people " use " these formulas in these ways is not the same as these formulas truly have these effects. I would like to see historical as well as research based evidence that these formulas have been and are being used effectively in these ways. I would love to think xiao yao san could really do that, i would add it to the drinking water. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:49 AM > Re: Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > Come on guys, I don't think that's very fair. So when these sort of ideas > come out of Jeffrey Yuen or Carl's mouths it is easy to mock or dismiss, but > they are hardly the only ones to attribute such experiential/emotional > characteristics to herbal formula. This is why Ted Kaptchuk uses Gui Zhi > Tang for performance anxiety (gently encourages the Wei qi/Yang to not be > stuck, and be able to act in the world), or Greg Bantick (ex-of PCOM and > SIOM) talks of Xiao Yao San as useful for patients that over-meticulously > carry out lifestyle advice because it gently stirs a body/mind with enough > provocation to get them to reconsider their assumptions of what is > right/what they should be doing, without making too much of a mess of their > belief system. > > > > I know many people are concerned about students/starting practitioners being > a bit too gullible for their own good, and I entirely agree with that > sentiment, but the other side is that you have to let them have room to be > able to think and judge for themselves when it comes to ideas that are a bit > left of centre, you know? IMO, making fun of them doesn't help. > > -Li > > -- > Knowing ignorance is strength; ignoring knowledge is sickness. > -Tao te ching > > > On 3/8/06, wrote: > > > > > > thought detox... long dan xie gan or Ma zi ren tang? > > doug > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Alon, Whose interpretation of Chinese literature? I know it is a tricky area, but there is no doubt that historically there are schools of herbalists that use formula like Gui Zhi Tang or Xiao Chai Hu Tang, with modifications, for virtually anything (including my master), using the subtleties of that entry point to work the subtleties of the system. And they do so on the basis of a deeper than surface look at what we all know and love, the Shang Han Lun. I mean I can't see it personally, but who am I to dismiss them and not perhaps try and learn to see what they see? I definitely take your point though, when it comes to teaching and educating, a firmer and more reliable basis is probably a good idea. Perhaps a solution is that we could distinguish in teaching between the " 95% reliable and pretty much across the board CM community consensus " information and the " maybe 50% reliable because I am just teaching from my own experience and a less commonly accepted interpretation of classical knowledge that I have come to understand " data? -Li On 3/9/06, <alonmarcus wrote: > > Doug > I agree someone always need to be the first, but as far teaching to others > or marketing products one needs to show at least good historical evidence. > For those that read Chinese in the list how many think these functions are > backed up in Chinese literature? > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Wednesday, March 08, 2006 9:16 AM > Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > Lionel, I think that was well said. We are faced with patients that have > complaints and > concerns couched in language outside of traditional Chinese terminology. > Some would say > that these can be transported back to TCM while others say not. Can we > meet the > abstraction without the metaphor? > In general I try to work within TCM but for sometimes I get bugged by > Seriousness and like > to take a chance to stretch on placebo/metaphor. > Alon, there isn't going to be evidence without someone trying to do it > first. Do no harm, > right on! > > doug > > , " " > <alonmarcus > wrote: > > > > The fact that these people " use " these formulas in these ways is not > the same as these > formulas truly have these effects. I would like to see historical as > well as research based > evidence that these formulas have been and are being used effectively in > these ways. I > would love to think xiao yao san could really do that, i would add it to > the drinking water. > > > > > > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > > > - > > > > > > Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:49 AM > > Re: Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy > > > > > > Come on guys, I don't think that's very fair. So when these sort of > ideas > > come out of Jeffrey Yuen or Carl's mouths it is easy to mock or > dismiss, but > > they are hardly the only ones to attribute such > experiential/emotional > > characteristics to herbal formula. This is why Ted Kaptchuk uses > Gui Zhi > > Tang for performance anxiety (gently encourages the Wei qi/Yang to > not be > > stuck, and be able to act in the world), or Greg Bantick (ex-of PCOM > and > > SIOM) talks of Xiao Yao San as useful for patients that > over-meticulously > > carry out lifestyle advice because it gently stirs a body/mind with > enough > > provocation to get them to reconsider their assumptions of what is > > right/what they should be doing, without making too much of a mess > of their > > belief system. > > > > > > > > I know many people are concerned about students/starting > practitioners being > > a bit too gullible for their own good, and I entirely agree with > that > > sentiment, but the other side is that you have to let them have room > to be > > able to think and judge for themselves when it comes to ideas that > are a bit > > left of centre, you know? IMO, making fun of them doesn't help. > > > > -Li > > > > -- > > Knowing ignorance is strength; ignoring knowledge is sickness. > > -Tao te ching > > > > > > On 3/8/06, wrote: > > > > > > > > > thought detox... long dan xie gan or Ma zi ren tang? > > > doug > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Doug, Alon has a point. Yuen Yi-sheng has a deep background in the Chinese medical literature and clinical experience, but I question if many others are simply'riffing' or making it up. I wish Jeffrey would also give more sources for his innovative descriptions of formulas. On Mar 8, 2006, at 10:13 AM, wrote: > Doug > I agree someone always need to be the first, but as far teaching to > others or marketing products one needs to show at least good > historical evidence. For those that read Chinese in the list how > many think these functions are backed up in Chinese literature? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I remember the saying that it is the students that write the books not the master. So we often have the solidifaction of creative ideas into dogma. I bring this up in regard to Yuen because I fear even as he " channels " elegant and mysterious processes his students often filter it to simplistic solutions. Yu Ping Fang may in certain cases work well for the paranoid with a wei qi. In the case of Gui Zhi Tang, Kaptchuk may indeed be seeing Gui Zhi Tang in the patterns his patients exhibit in accordence with a classic scenario. But this is a far cry from saying " Gui Zhi Tang treats stage fright " or whatever. Which is what I see happening with Yuen and other " creatives " We get things like " trauma treatments " or " Spleen 7 (?) clears the karma of a baby when needled on the expectant mother " . If Jeffery sees this pattern then Spleen 7 just may do it (I guess) but the student just sees the outcome and the solution. I think we are in agreement as to what this medicine is, should be, can be. I saw Carl's post and truthfully I pondered letting it through, simply because it was so outside the envelope of most of the discussions here. I'm glad I did and that he wrote it, not just because of the discussion it engendered but because we all need some boundary crossings once in awhile. doug , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Doug, > Alon has a point. Yuen Yi-sheng has a deep background in the > Chinese medical literature and clinical experience, but I question if > many others are simply'riffing' or making it up. I wish Jeffrey > would also give more sources for his innovative descriptions of > formulas. > > > On Mar 8, 2006, at 10:13 AM, wrote: > > > Doug > > I agree someone always need to be the first, but as far teaching to > > others or marketing products one needs to show at least good > > historical evidence. For those that read Chinese in the list how > > many think these functions are backed up in Chinese literature? > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 My compliments in return, well said! On 3/9/06, wrote: > > I remember the saying that it is the students that write the books not the > master. So we > often have the solidifaction of creative ideas into dogma. I bring this up > in regard to Yuen > because I fear even as he " channels " elegant and mysterious processes his > students often > filter it to simplistic solutions. Yu Ping Fang may in certain cases work > well for the > paranoid with a wei qi. In the case of Gui Zhi Tang, Kaptchuk may indeed > be seeing Gui Zhi > Tang in the patterns his patients exhibit in accordence with a classic > scenario. But this is a > far cry from saying " Gui Zhi Tang treats stage fright " or whatever. Which > is what I see > happening with Yuen and other " creatives " We get things like " trauma > treatments " or > " Spleen 7 (?) clears the karma of a baby when needled on the expectant > mother " . If Jeffery > sees this pattern then Spleen 7 just may do it (I guess) but the student > just sees the > outcome and the solution. > I think we are in agreement as to what this medicine is, should be, can > be. I saw Carl's > post and truthfully I pondered letting it through, simply because it was > so outside the > envelope of most of the discussions here. I'm glad I did and that he wrote > it, not just > because of the discussion it engendered but because we all need some > boundary > crossings once in awhile. > > doug > > > , " " <zrosenbe > wrote: > > > > Doug, > > Alon has a point. Yuen Yi-sheng has a deep background in the > > Chinese medical literature and clinical experience, but I question if > > many others are simply'riffing' or making it up. I wish Jeffrey > > would also give more sources for his innovative descriptions of > > formulas. > > > > > > On Mar 8, 2006, at 10:13 AM, wrote: > > > > > Doug > > > I agree someone always need to be the first, but as far teaching to > > > others or marketing products one needs to show at least good > > > historical evidence. For those that read Chinese in the list how > > > many think these functions are backed up in Chinese literature? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 This is tricky territory to navigate. This is Chinese medicine: there is spirit in the body and body in the spirit. That¹s a beautiful thing. but I am suspect of MSU ing. Inference can be great but students tend to grasp onto it, as if it is the truth. I mention this because I teach TCM in a 5-elem school. I spend an inordinate amount if time in my class going over theory theory theory. Pathology pathology pathology. Formulas. Herbs. Grounding them with historical references. Not an easy job in that environment. but: this week, I gave a patient with HBP a formula to sedate liver wind. He described his experience of the herbs as feeling ³denser². His experience of the herbs was entirely psycho-emotional. thus: that was the filter through which I assessed his formula for adjustment. lets know enough to be flexible. Cara > I remember the saying that it is the students that write the books not the > master. So we > often have the solidifaction of creative ideas into dogma. I bring this up in > regard to Yuen > because I fear even as he " channels " elegant and mysterious processes his > students often > filter it to simplistic solutions. Yu Ping Fang may in certain cases work well > for the > paranoid with a wei qi. In the case of Gui Zhi Tang, Kaptchuk may indeed be > seeing Gui Zhi > Tang in the patterns his patients exhibit in accordence with a classic > scenario. But this is a > far cry from saying " Gui Zhi Tang treats stage fright " or whatever. Which is > what I see > happening with Yuen and other " creatives " We get things like " trauma > treatments " or > " Spleen 7 (?) clears the karma of a baby when needled on the expectant > mother " . If Jeffery > sees this pattern then Spleen 7 just may do it (I guess) but the student just > sees the > outcome and the solution. > I think we are in agreement as to what this medicine is, should be, can be. I > saw Carl's > post and truthfully I pondered letting it through, simply because it was so > outside the > envelope of most of the discussions here. I'm glad I did and that he wrote it, > not just > because of the discussion it engendered but because we all need some boundary > crossings once in awhile. > > doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I, too experience feeling " denser " when I take herbs which sedate liver wind. I don't think it's all woo-woo, either. If you think about it, they are very downbearing, and for someone who's chronically got all their qi up in their ears, bringing that back down into the body can quite rightly create an experience of greater density. That's how I feel it too. Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: this week, I gave a patient with HBP a formula to sedate liver wind. He described his experience of the herbs as feeling ³denser². His experience of the herbs was entirely psycho-emotional. thus: that was the filter through which I assessed his formula for adjustment. Cara Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 I have been rather quiet in this forum for quite a while, but this topic has peaked my interest and I would like to pass on my two $1 - 0.99. Andrew Weil in one of his books, proposed the idea of medicines as either an active or innactive placebo. An inactive placebo is a medicine(like homeopathy) which when taken does not cause any " bodily sensations " but patients still get better. An active placebo is a medicine(drugs, and herbs) which when taken causes bodily sensations, like increased heart rate, sweating, etc. and the patient gets better. The key point being that the body/mind is doing the healing thus the word placebo, and the medicines only facilitate the patients natural healing process. Of course a patients(and doctors) 'belief' or 'unknown hope/fear' of the medicine(or healing) will have a major effect on the overall outcome. Better outcome when you believe it works or have at least an underlying hope, or even a fear of the treatment. Following this theory, could it not then be said that a Master/teacher like Yuen, endows a certain element of belief about the meds to his students, who then in turn endow this belief to their patients and the patients then become better. If Carl believes Yu Ping Feng San to have these specific healing qualities, and he expresses his belief through talking to his patients and more importantly the subtle que's they unconsciously recognize--body language, intuition, etc. then it will probably work for the patient even though the classic literature does not say it should work for that condition. For me, Weils theory has changed the way I view healing entirely. It can explain a lot of inadequecies in healing including why some tried and true remedies work great for some, but not for all patients. And why some completely unorthodox and unique treatments heal people. It also explains to some degree the different uses of the same herb in different healing practices like TCM and Ayurveda. Some one in the past had success treating a specific condition with the herb in India(because the practioner and patient thought it would) and so it eventually become part of the literature, while in China the same didnt happen. So who can really say that Carls interesting use of Yu Ping Feng San cannot be used for his purposes, especially since it is a formula of multiple herbs, which in my opinion has multiple directions in which it can be used to treat. Of course only as long as both doc and patient believe(or at least have hope)that it can! ...Infinite gratitude to all things past.. ....Infinite respect to all things present... .....Infinite responsibility to all things future.... ......Tao..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Hey guys, pay attention to your body and thoughts and the sensations that change/arise next time you do something as mundane as letting a raw oyster slide down your gullet. Tell me that feeling/change isn't very important to the whole concept of anchoring shen. For more of such fun (only click if you promise not to get too woo-woo), check this out: http://forums.acupuncture.net.au/viewtopic.php?t=232 On 3/8/06, Anton Borja <its_antonborja wrote: > > > I have been rather quiet in this forum for quite a > while, but this topic has peaked my interest and I > would like to pass on my two $1 - 0.99. > Andrew Weil in one of his books, proposed the idea of > medicines as either an active or innactive placebo. > An inactive placebo is a medicine(like homeopathy) > which when taken does not cause any " bodily > sensations " but patients still get better. An active > placebo is a medicine(drugs, and herbs) which when > taken causes bodily sensations, like increased heart > rate, sweating, etc. and the patient gets better. The > key point being that the body/mind is doing the > healing thus the word placebo, and the medicines only > facilitate the patients natural healing process. Of > course a patients(and doctors) 'belief' or 'unknown > hope/fear' of the medicine(or healing) will have a > major effect on the overall outcome. Better outcome > when you believe it works or have at least an > underlying hope, or even a fear of the treatment. > > Following this theory, could it not then be said that > a Master/teacher like Yuen, endows a certain element > of belief about the meds to his students, who then in > turn endow this belief to their patients and the > patients then become better. If Carl believes Yu Ping > Feng San to have these specific healing qualities, and > he expresses his belief through talking to his > patients and more importantly the subtle que's they > unconsciously recognize--body language, intuition, > etc. then it will probably work for the patient even > though the classic literature does not say it should > work for that condition. > > For me, Weils theory has changed the way I view > healing entirely. It can explain a lot of > inadequecies in healing including why some tried and > true remedies work great for some, but not for all > patients. And why some completely unorthodox and > unique treatments heal people. It also explains to > some degree the different uses of the same herb in > different healing practices like TCM and Ayurveda. > Some one in the past had success treating a specific > condition with the herb in India(because the > practioner and patient thought it would) and so it > eventually become part of the literature, while in > China the same didnt happen. So who can really say > that Carls interesting use of Yu Ping Feng San cannot > be used for his purposes, especially since it is a > formula of multiple herbs, which in my opinion has > multiple directions in which it can be used to treat. > Of course only as long as both doc and patient > believe(or at least have hope)that it can! > > > > > > ..Infinite gratitude to all things past.. > ...Infinite respect to all things present... > ....Infinite responsibility to all things future.... > .....Tao..... > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free > discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2006 Report Share Posted March 8, 2006 Andrea what is feeling denser? --- < wrote: I, too experience feeling " denser " when I take herbs which sedate liver wind. I don't think it's all woo-woo, either. If you think about it, they are very downbearing, and for someone who's chronically got all their qi up in their ears, bringing that back down into the body can quite rightly create an experience of greater density. That's how I feel it too. Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: this week, I gave a patient with HBP a formula to sedate liver wind. He described his experience of the herbs as feeling ³denser². His experience of the herbs was entirely psycho-emotional. thus: that was the filter through which I assessed his formula for adjustment. Cara Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Exactly! So if we are skilled practitioners then we can communicate how a formula works in several ways. have I used gui zhi tang for ying/wei disharmony? Sure. Lots. Have I used it for boundary issues? Sure. A little. But only if the boundary issues were a ying- wei disharmony. not, say, wei qi not consolidated ( yu ping Feng san). C > I, too experience feeling " denser " when I take herbs which sedate liver wind. > I don't think it's all woo-woo, either. If you think about it, they are very > downbearing, and for someone who's chronically got all their qi up in their > ears, bringing that back down into the body can quite rightly create an > experience of greater density. That's how I feel it too. > > > > Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > this week, I gave a patient with HBP a formula to sedate liver wind. > He described his experience of the herbs as feeling ³denser². His experience > of the herbs was entirely psycho-emotional. thus: that was the filter > through which I assessed his formula for adjustment. > > > Cara > > > > Mail > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 On 3/9/06, Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > > I used gui zhi tang for ying/wei disharmony? Sure. Lots. Have I used > it for boundary issues? Sure. A little. But only if the boundary issues > were > a ying- wei disharmony. > And this is a key point. The protocols that are based solely on the content of a patient's chief complaint is throwing out the entire concept of syndrome differentiation. When treating through metaphor, which is essentially what is being discussed here, and a popular direction for Jeffrey Yuan and J.R. Worsely school practitioners, practitioners toss out the whole idea that stuff in the mind/spirit will have a manifestation in the physical as well. There is a long tradition of seeing things through metaphor, in particular, Western occult sciences state " as above, so below " to explain the underlying assumption behind looking at the movement of celestial bodies and correlating them to the human experience in astrology. If there is any way to apply this to TCM, you cannot throw out the " so below " part. For this reason, I try and keep the students I work with focused on *presentation* rather than *content* of a psycho-spiritual complaint. As an example, a patient complains that people at work are talking about her and this is very disturbing to her. As Cara mentions, you still check the pulse, tongue, ask questions about lung functions to really get to where you need to go, not just the words and thoughts of the patient. This is no different than any of our interventions. You take the chief complaint, see how the syndrome presents in the patient, address the syndrome and toss in a bit (herbs, acupoints, etc.) for the chief complaint. But when we get into a knee-jerk response to a key word that a patient may bring up as their chief complaint, we're not differentiating syndromes anymore. Without seeing how things show up physically, we're ignoring the entire conceptual framework behind what we do. Just as we have no one formula for any particular chief complaint for a physical symptom, we cannot have any one formula for any of these psycho-spiritual complaints. Still gotta do your homework, but people don't like homework. Even depression is not always strictly a metal element issue such as we'd expect to find with the emotion of grief. We know that it is probably more often a wood element issue, but periodically it shows up as a phlegm-damp accumulation or even food stagnation. So, do we treat depression with a formula said to " open up the roads through the path of self-discovery " or however it may be said? Or do we check the tongue, pulse, ask some questions, even step back and get a sense of the patient's general spirit-affect to determine the patten beneath the complaint? I never treat the *content* of the complaint, only the *presentation*. Its too easy to delude one's self with mentle masturbation in these topics, and the patient's interpretations of their sensations are no more reliable. I have a patient who gets a little depressed on a full stomach. Do I get lost in the particulars of the depression which includes some darkish thoughts about some particular aspect of this patient's life, or do I simply treat what I see as the syndrome that causes the sensations that this patient is describing and let the interpretation go where it will. > Cara Frank wrote: > > this week, I gave a patient with HBP a formula to sedate liver wind. > > He described his experience of the herbs as feeling ³denser². His > experience > > of the herbs was entirely psycho-emotional. thus: that was the filter > > through which I assessed his formula for adjustment. > I agree that there are sensations that can arise with the ingestion of Chinese herbs. A sense of calm, heaviness in the body or in the stomach, all of these things are physical sensations. I don't know how this feeling of density became proof of the psycho-spiritual application of a formula toward paranoia or whatever it was. There is no shortage of sensations that will arise within our awareness, however as practitioners we need to focus on the patient's sensations rather than their interpretation of those sensations. This is no different than the dance that we sometimes go through with patients who come in with a diagnosis rather than a chief complaint. While a diagnosis of cancer or some of the easy-to-miss Western disease can be helpful, I'm actually talking about how I was yesterday looking into a patient's Kidney system. " Any low back pain? " was my question. Her answer was " my chiro tells me that I have blah-blah-blah. " This is an example of getting " content " instead of " presentation " . I had to ask the question a few more times before I got the answer as to whether or not there was actually any low back pain. Now with this information, I can know what to do therapeutically. The thoughts sitting on top of that pain are meaningless (eg. the chiro or other practitioner's interpretation of their condition). Adding pyschological interpretations to physical sensations is no more accurate than a patient coming with a diagnosis from some other practitioner. We have to treat what we see/hear/feel/diagnostically obtain rather than what the patient says (aside from the obvious " inquiry " portion of our diagnosis). -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Al That is what pattern Dx is all about and if we practice TCM can never be forgotten. We need to be careful however to never project our own ideas onto our patients which can become a self reinforcing system as patients will reflect and use the same language implanted in them by practitioner they like. When patients feel better they will express it in many ways (often very culturally dependent) including stating that they feel more grounded, secure, less empty etc. Over the years i have seen patients express this regardless of the treatment used, i.e., I have seen patients express similar ideas and feelings after using purging or tonifying methods and therefor i have a hard time attributing such effects to specific herbs. A patient can feel empty and weak from Excess as he can from Def. Just last week i treated a patient that had intestinal obstruction for a week and was going to have surgery the next day if treatment did not help. He came in feeling extremely weak and actually stated, and looked, as if his mind and energy were empty (fatigued weakened look, eyes, and cognitive slowness, damaged shen). I used very high dose purging and strong stimulation acupuncture, had him come in 3 times during the day, i.e., all strongly purging treatments. He came back in two days and told me he moved lots of stool and immediately felt more strength, his voice was stronger and his cognitive expressiveness clearer. I think there are many pitfalls associating specific emotional expressions to specific herbs or formulas. We also need to remember that specific emotions were related to different organs in CM classical literature and that these are culturally dependent as well. I am willing to bet that gui zhi tang would fail a double blind study on " performance anxiety. " If on the other hand the patients also have gui zhi tang presentation perhaps it would help their anxiety as well. The common symptoms seen in patients with performance anxiety are tremors, dry mouth, sweating, racing heart, pressured voice, etc., are not classically associated with gui zhi tong (unless modified). Why then should we have the expectation that this formula will be effective? Oakland, CA 94609 - Al Stone Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:06 AM Re: Re: Jade Windscreen Alchemy On 3/9/06, Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > > I used gui zhi tang for ying/wei disharmony? Sure. Lots. Have I used > it for boundary issues? Sure. A little. But only if the boundary issues > were > a ying- wei disharmony. > And this is a key point. The protocols that are based solely on the content of a patient's chief complaint is throwing out the entire concept of syndrome differentiation. When treating through metaphor, which is essentially what is being discussed here, and a popular direction for Jeffrey Yuan and J.R. Worsely school practitioners, practitioners toss out the whole idea that stuff in the mind/spirit will have a manifestation in the physical as well. There is a long tradition of seeing things through metaphor, in particular, Western occult sciences state " as above, so below " to explain the underlying assumption behind looking at the movement of celestial bodies and correlating them to the human experience in astrology. If there is any way to apply this to TCM, you cannot throw out the " so below " part. For this reason, I try and keep the students I work with focused on *presentation* rather than *content* of a psycho-spiritual complaint. As an example, a patient complains that people at work are talking about her and this is very disturbing to her. As Cara mentions, you still check the pulse, tongue, ask questions about lung functions to really get to where you need to go, not just the words and thoughts of the patient. This is no different than any of our interventions. You take the chief complaint, see how the syndrome presents in the patient, address the syndrome and toss in a bit (herbs, acupoints, etc.) for the chief complaint. But when we get into a knee-jerk response to a key word that a patient may bring up as their chief complaint, we're not differentiating syndromes anymore. Without seeing how things show up physically, we're ignoring the entire conceptual framework behind what we do. Just as we have no one formula for any particular chief complaint for a physical symptom, we cannot have any one formula for any of these psycho-spiritual complaints. Still gotta do your homework, but people don't like homework. Even depression is not always strictly a metal element issue such as we'd expect to find with the emotion of grief. We know that it is probably more often a wood element issue, but periodically it shows up as a phlegm-damp accumulation or even food stagnation. So, do we treat depression with a formula said to " open up the roads through the path of self-discovery " or however it may be said? Or do we check the tongue, pulse, ask some questions, even step back and get a sense of the patient's general spirit-affect to determine the patten beneath the complaint? I never treat the *content* of the complaint, only the *presentation*. Its too easy to delude one's self with mentle masturbation in these topics, and the patient's interpretations of their sensations are no more reliable. I have a patient who gets a little depressed on a full stomach. Do I get lost in the particulars of the depression which includes some darkish thoughts about some particular aspect of this patient's life, or do I simply treat what I see as the syndrome that causes the sensations that this patient is describing and let the interpretation go where it will. > Cara Frank wrote: > > this week, I gave a patient with HBP a formula to sedate liver wind. > > He described his experience of the herbs as feeling ³denser². His > experience > > of the herbs was entirely psycho-emotional. thus: that was the filter > > through which I assessed his formula for adjustment. > I agree that there are sensations that can arise with the ingestion of Chinese herbs. A sense of calm, heaviness in the body or in the stomach, all of these things are physical sensations. I don't know how this feeling of density became proof of the psycho-spiritual application of a formula toward paranoia or whatever it was. There is no shortage of sensations that will arise within our awareness, however as practitioners we need to focus on the patient's sensations rather than their interpretation of those sensations. This is no different than the dance that we sometimes go through with patients who come in with a diagnosis rather than a chief complaint. While a diagnosis of cancer or some of the easy-to-miss Western disease can be helpful, I'm actually talking about how I was yesterday looking into a patient's Kidney system. " Any low back pain? " was my question. Her answer was " my chiro tells me that I have blah-blah-blah. " This is an example of getting " content " instead of " presentation " . I had to ask the question a few more times before I got the answer as to whether or not there was actually any low back pain. Now with this information, I can know what to do therapeutically. The thoughts sitting on top of that pain are meaningless (eg. the chiro or other practitioner's interpretation of their condition). Adding pyschological interpretations to physical sensations is no more accurate than a patient coming with a diagnosis from some other practitioner. We have to treat what we see/hear/feel/diagnostically obtain rather than what the patient says (aside from the obvious " inquiry " portion of our diagnosis). -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 On 3/9/06, <alonmarcus wrote: > I am willing to bet that gui zhi tang would fail a double blind study on > " performance anxiety. " If on the other hand the patients also have gui zhi > tang presentation perhaps it would help their anxiety as well. The common > symptoms seen in patients with performance anxiety are tremors, dry mouth, > sweating, racing heart, pressured voice, etc., are not classically > associated with gui zhi tong (unless modified). Why then should we have the > expectation that this formula will be effective? > Exactly, and that's why I favor treating the *presentation* over the *content* of the chief complaint. Perhaps gui zhi jia long gu mu li tang would make sense for someone with anxiety, tremors, dry mouth etc... but it should also work for anxiety due to stage fright, or meeting new people, or fear of the great outdoors, or any particular issue that gives rise to this presentation with appropriate tongue, pulse, etc. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 I think I should apologise for my loose wording of when I originally mentioned Ted Kaptchuk and his use of Gui Zhi Tang and Bantick with Xiao Yao San. What I meant was is simply that they used these emotional indicators as another sign and symptom to analyse within the context of bianzheng, that may or may not be appropriate, but definitely not ignored, exactly as everyone else has clarified, but I figured everyone already knew that. Perhaps not - What I am understanding from this discussion is that perhaps I should not be so careless and presumptive about people's immunity to " woo-woo " ? At the same time, it does occur to me that the attraction of some to " woo-woo " does arise out of an inflexibility, being TOO defensive against " woo-woo " , and closing inquiry in the psycho-emotional and subjective feeling arena. Possibility? -Lionel On 3/9/06, Al Stone <al wrote: > > On 3/9/06, <alonmarcus wrote: > > > I am willing to bet that gui zhi tang would fail a double blind study on > > " performance anxiety. " If on the other hand the patients also have gui > zhi > > tang presentation perhaps it would help their anxiety as well. The > common > > symptoms seen in patients with performance anxiety are tremors, dry > mouth, > > sweating, racing heart, pressured voice, etc., are not classically > > associated with gui zhi tong (unless modified). Why then should we have > the > > expectation that this formula will be effective? > > > > Exactly, and that's why I favor treating the *presentation* over the > *content* of the chief complaint. Perhaps gui zhi jia long gu mu li tang > would make sense for someone with anxiety, tremors, dry mouth etc... but > it > should also work for anxiety due to stage fright, or meeting new people, > or > fear of the great outdoors, or any particular issue that gives rise to > this > presentation with appropriate tongue, pulse, etc. > > > -- > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Gui zhi jia long gu mu li tang specifically mentions symptoms of a more emotional/psychological nature when compared with Gui zhi tang. In my understanding, that is because the addition of mu li and long gu to Gui zhi tang 'sinks the prescription' to a deeper channel, specifically the shao yin channel, so it can deal with issues of heart and kidney interaction. > Exactly, and that's why I favor treating the *presentation* over the > *content* of the chief complaint. Perhaps gui zhi jia long gu mu li > tang > would make sense for someone with anxiety, tremors, dry mouth > etc... but it > should also work for anxiety due to stage fright, or meeting new > people, or > fear of the great outdoors, or any particular issue that gives rise > to this > presentation with appropriate tongue, pulse, etc. > > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 Well said, Alon. There are prescriptions that do address emotional/ psychological issues in their descriptions, and many of the emotional/ psychological components do make sense. At the same time, it is all too easy to exaggerate the qualities of herbs and acupuncture points way out of proportion, and then we are practicing a form of pop Jungian therapy rather than Chinese medicine. No offense to Jungian therapy, I like it very much. On Mar 9, 2006, at 9:36 AM, wrote: > Al > That is what pattern Dx is all about and if we practice TCM can > never be forgotten. We need to be careful however to never project > our own ideas onto our patients which can become a self reinforcing > system as patients will reflect and use the same language implanted > in them by practitioner they like. When patients feel better they > will express it in many ways (often very culturally dependent) > including stating that they feel more grounded, secure, less empty > etc. Over the years i have seen patients express this regardless of > the treatment used, i.e., I have seen patients express similar > ideas and feelings after using purging or tonifying methods and > therefor i have a hard time attributing such effects to specific > herbs. A patient can feel empty and weak from Excess as he can from > Def. Just last week i treated a patient that had intestinal > obstruction for a week and was going to have surgery the next day > if treatment did not help. He came in feeling extremely weak and > actually stated, and looked, as if his mind and energy were empty > (fatigued weakened look, eyes, and cognitive slowness, damaged > shen). I used very high dose purging and strong stimulation > acupuncture, had him come in 3 times during the day, i.e., all > strongly purging treatments. He came back in two days and told me > he moved lots of stool and immediately felt more strength, his > voice was stronger and his cognitive expressiveness clearer. > I think there are many pitfalls associating specific emotional > expressions to specific herbs or formulas. We also need to remember > that specific emotions were related to different organs in CM > classical literature and that these are culturally dependent as > well. I am willing to bet that gui zhi tang would fail a double > blind study on " performance anxiety. " If on the other hand the > patients also have gui zhi tang presentation perhaps it would help > their anxiety as well. The common symptoms seen in patients with > performance anxiety are tremors, dry mouth, sweating, racing heart, > pressured voice, etc., are not classically associated with gui zhi > tong (unless modified). Why then should we have the expectation > that this formula will be effective? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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