Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 CHA, As we have all discussed and know, the rocks, shells etc that are in the granular form basically have a 1:1 ratio. Meaning there is not much to extract. Eric mentioned that putting 1 scoop of such powder directly in the mouth (and swallowing) delivers an incredibly high dose of herb. (100x???) anyway, clearly dosing with these substances in granular form (especially if one is making the formula from singles) in problematic. Does one use a super low does of guiban because of what Eric has mentioned. Or on the other hand, does one dose fairly high because the extraction is so poor. Well, I am unsure, I have always errored somewhere in the middle. The questions are: 1) In Taiwan what are the doctors doing there for dosage on such substances. ? 2) Has anyone yet obtained a list of extraction ratios for the various herbs; this seems like essential information if one wants to dose accurately with granulars. Is everyone out there just guessing???? We should demand a list from KPS (Etc)./.. Well I have tried to get it, but cannot. anyone??? ALON??? - <Chinese Medicine> tel: <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add me to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 yes, the granular of those herbs is 1:1 ratio, particula the rock & bones Christine --- wrote: > > > CHA, > > > > As we have all discussed and know, the rocks, shells > etc that are in the > granular form basically have a 1:1 ratio. Meaning > there is not much to > extract. Eric mentioned that putting 1 scoop of > such powder directly in the > mouth (and swallowing) delivers an incredibly high > dose of herb. (100x???) > anyway, clearly dosing with these substances in > granular form (especially if > one is making the formula from singles) in > problematic. Does one use a > super low does of guiban because of what Eric has > mentioned. Or on the > other hand, does one dose fairly high because the > extraction is so poor. > Well, I am unsure, I have always errored somewhere > in the middle. > > > > The questions are: > > > > 1) In Taiwan what are the doctors doing there for > dosage on such substances. > ? > > 2) Has anyone yet obtained a list of extraction > ratios for the various > herbs; this seems like essential information if one > wants to dose accurately > with granulars. Is everyone out there just > guessing???? We should demand a > list from KPS (Etc)./.. Well I have tried to get it, > but cannot. anyone??? > ALON??? > > > > > > - > > > <Chinese Medicine> , > M.S., L.Ac. > > tel: > > > > > > > > > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> > Add me > to your address book... > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature > like this? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM) 310-951-8698 (cel) panasiaintl " I think, therefore I am. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Jason that is not exactly true since many of the companies use starch as the courier to spray on the mother solution. You cannot concentrate a mineral so in reality its probably less than a simple powdered mineral. Still its probably more than one gets from decoction since some of the companies also use a mix of powdered mineral and starch as courier. Oakland, CA 94609 - Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:16 PM rock, turtle, bone... CHA, As we have all discussed and know, the rocks, shells etc that are in the granular form basically have a 1:1 ratio. Meaning there is not much to extract. Eric mentioned that putting 1 scoop of such powder directly in the mouth (and swallowing) delivers an incredibly high dose of herb. (100x???) anyway, clearly dosing with these substances in granular form (especially if one is making the formula from singles) in problematic. Does one use a super low does of guiban because of what Eric has mentioned. Or on the other hand, does one dose fairly high because the extraction is so poor. Well, I am unsure, I have always errored somewhere in the middle. The questions are: 1) In Taiwan what are the doctors doing there for dosage on such substances. ? 2) Has anyone yet obtained a list of extraction ratios for the various herbs; this seems like essential information if one wants to dose accurately with granulars. Is everyone out there just guessing???? We should demand a list from KPS (Etc)./.. Well I have tried to get it, but cannot. anyone??? ALON??? - <Chinese Medicine> tel: <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add me to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 On 3/22/06, wrote: 2) Has anyone yet obtained a list of extraction ratios for the various > herbs; this seems like essential information if one wants to dose > accurately > with granulars. Is everyone out there just guessing???? We should demand a > list from KPS (Etc)./.. Well I have tried to get it, but cannot. anyone??? > I just want to add my voice to this question. This may be something that herb companies don't want know, either. For instance, if I find that Herb Supplier A has a higher concentration than Herb Supplier B, then Company A is going to think twice about telling the truth the next time. Next, the question comes up as to what marker you're measuring, if Supplier A monitors one marker, and Supplier B monitors another, we really can't do any comparison shopping. However, this would be really good information if we could simply get into the ball park on these conversions. I just don't know that the companies are going to be very enthusiastic about this for the reasons mentioned above. We'd probably have to get some independent firm to do the testing on the products so that we have a baseline to compare. I know that there are some company representatives on this list. Do any of you have this sort of information on a per-herb basis? This 5:1 or 6:1 ratio is really about marketing rather than providing practitioners with any real direction on this. Someone out there would be very wise to take the lead on this... -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Alon, How are you personally dosing these substances? Also, as an experiment we put some KPC mu li granular and regular powdered mu li in water (and stirred)- the powder dissolved much easier. -Jason > > > On Behalf Of > Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:31 AM > > Re: rock, turtle, bone... > > Jason > that is not exactly true since many of the companies use starch as the > courier to spray on the mother solution. You cannot concentrate a mineral > so in reality its probably less than a simple powdered mineral. Still its > probably more than one gets from decoction since some of the companies > also use a mix of powdered mineral and starch as courier. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:16 PM > rock, turtle, bone... > > > > > CHA, > > > > As we have all discussed and know, the rocks, shells etc that are in the > granular form basically have a 1:1 ratio. Meaning there is not much to > extract. Eric mentioned that putting 1 scoop of such powder directly in > the > mouth (and swallowing) delivers an incredibly high dose of herb. > (100x???) > anyway, clearly dosing with these substances in granular form > (especially if > one is making the formula from singles) in problematic. Does one use a > super low does of guiban because of what Eric has mentioned. Or on the > other hand, does one dose fairly high because the extraction is so poor. > Well, I am unsure, I have always errored somewhere in the middle. > > > > The questions are: > > > > 1) In Taiwan what are the doctors doing there for dosage on such > substances. > ? > > 2) Has anyone yet obtained a list of extraction ratios for the various > herbs; this seems like essential information if one wants to dose > accurately > with granulars. Is everyone out there just guessing???? We should demand > a > list from KPS (Etc)./.. Well I have tried to get it, but cannot. > anyone??? > ALON??? > > > > > > - > > > <Chinese Medicine> > > tel: > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add > me > to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a > signature > like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Jason I use slightly smaller doses unless i am really trying to pull down. That is because there is a lot of starch in the KPC Oakland, CA 94609 - Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:12 PM RE: rock, turtle, bone... Alon, How are you personally dosing these substances? Also, as an experiment we put some KPC mu li granular and regular powdered mu li in water (and stirred)- the powder dissolved much easier. -Jason > > > On Behalf Of > Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:31 AM > > Re: rock, turtle, bone... > > Jason > that is not exactly true since many of the companies use starch as the > courier to spray on the mother solution. You cannot concentrate a mineral > so in reality its probably less than a simple powdered mineral. Still its > probably more than one gets from decoction since some of the companies > also use a mix of powdered mineral and starch as courier. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > > > Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:16 PM > rock, turtle, bone... > > > > > CHA, > > > > As we have all discussed and know, the rocks, shells etc that are in the > granular form basically have a 1:1 ratio. Meaning there is not much to > extract. Eric mentioned that putting 1 scoop of such powder directly in > the > mouth (and swallowing) delivers an incredibly high dose of herb. > (100x???) > anyway, clearly dosing with these substances in granular form > (especially if > one is making the formula from singles) in problematic. Does one use a > super low does of guiban because of what Eric has mentioned. Or on the > other hand, does one dose fairly high because the extraction is so poor. > Well, I am unsure, I have always errored somewhere in the middle. > > > > The questions are: > > > > 1) In Taiwan what are the doctors doing there for dosage on such > substances. > ? > > 2) Has anyone yet obtained a list of extraction ratios for the various > herbs; this seems like essential information if one wants to dose > accurately > with granulars. Is everyone out there just guessing???? We should demand > a > list from KPS (Etc)./.. Well I have tried to get it, but cannot. > anyone??? > ALON??? > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine> > > tel: > > > > > > > > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add > me > to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a > signature > like this? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Christine, If the ratio is 1:1 what does a typical dosage look like in the real clinic... , for example if all the other herbs are around 5:1 (which is probably false anyway) we have a Rx like the following: Original Dosage: Herb X - 10 Herb Y - 10 Herb Z - 5 Mu Li - 30 Granular dosage: Herb X - 2 Herb Y - 2 Herb Z - 1 Mu Li - 30 IS this what you are suggesting, or is this what is going on Taiwan.. Seems odd... What am I missing? - > > > On Behalf Of Christine Chang > Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:50 PM > > Re: rock, turtle, bone... > > yes, the granular of those herbs is 1:1 ratio, > particula the rock & bones > > Christine > > --- > wrote: > > > > > > > CHA, > > > > > > > > As we have all discussed and know, the rocks, shells > > etc that are in the > > granular form basically have a 1:1 ratio. Meaning > > there is not much to > > extract. Eric mentioned that putting 1 scoop of > > such powder directly in the > > mouth (and swallowing) delivers an incredibly high > > dose of herb. (100x???) > > anyway, clearly dosing with these substances in > > granular form (especially if > > one is making the formula from singles) in > > problematic. Does one use a > > super low does of guiban because of what Eric has > > mentioned. Or on the > > other hand, does one dose fairly high because the > > extraction is so poor. > > Well, I am unsure, I have always errored somewhere > > in the middle. > > > > > > > > The questions are: > > > > > > > > 1) In Taiwan what are the doctors doing there for > > dosage on such substances. > > ? > > > > 2) Has anyone yet obtained a list of extraction > > ratios for the various > > herbs; this seems like essential information if one > > wants to dose accurately > > with granulars. Is everyone out there just > > guessing???? We should demand a > > list from KPS (Etc)./.. Well I have tried to get it, > > but cannot. anyone??? > > ALON??? > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine> , > > M.S., L.Ac. > > > > tel: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> > > Add me > > to your address book... > > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature > > like this? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM > BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee > American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM) > 310-951-8698 (cel) > panasiaintl > > " I think, therefore I am. " > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 , " " wrote: > > Alon, > > How are you personally dosing these substances? Also, as an experiment we > put some KPC mu li granular and regular powdered mu li in water (and > stirred)- the powder dissolved much easier. Kaiser Pharmaceutical (KP, the mother company of KPC) has far more sophisticated grinders that we use. The powder is probably much finer. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 > > > On Behalf Of Eric Brand > Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:09 PM > > Re: rock, turtle, bone... > > , " " > wrote: > > > > Alon, > > > > How are you personally dosing these substances? Also, as an > experiment we > > put some KPC mu li granular and regular powdered mu li in water (and > > stirred)- the powder dissolved much easier. > > Kaiser Pharmaceutical (KP, the mother company of KPC) has far more > sophisticated grinders that we use. The powder is probably much finer. > > Eric > Yes it is much finer... -JB > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Al, A true ratio extract (5:1, 6:1, etc.) won't measure a marker compound as part of the extraction process. A true 5:1 extract will simply take 5 pounds (or any other measure) of an herb and prepare a dried extract that weighs one pound. That is the accepted definition of a dried ratio extract in the herb industry. So dividing the raw herb dose by 5 will give you the extract dose. An standardized extract that claims a certain level of a marker compound will vary in its concentration ratio from batch to batch. For example, a Ginkgo biloba extract is typically standardized to 24% flavone glycosides and 6% terpene lactones. Depending on the starting material, this type of standardized extract may have a concentration ratio anywhere from 35:1 to 65:1. The desired goal in this type of extract is the level of marker compounds, not the concentration ratio. - Bill Schoenbart .................................... Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac. PO Box 8099 Santa Cruz, CA 95061 831-335-3165 plantmed >>>>Next, the question comes up as to what marker you're measuring, if Supplier A monitors one marker, and Supplier B monitors another, we really can't do any comparison shopping.>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Al Not only that, the quality of the starting materials is very important. I remember Pat from Nuherbs telling me that the majority of US herb pill makers that buy from her by large bulk only care about price. Oakland, CA 94609 - Al Stone Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:08 PM Re: rock, turtle, bone... On 3/22/06, wrote: 2) Has anyone yet obtained a list of extraction ratios for the various > herbs; this seems like essential information if one wants to dose > accurately > with granulars. Is everyone out there just guessing???? We should demand a > list from KPS (Etc)./.. Well I have tried to get it, but cannot. anyone??? > I just want to add my voice to this question. This may be something that herb companies don't want know, either. For instance, if I find that Herb Supplier A has a higher concentration than Herb Supplier B, then Company A is going to think twice about telling the truth the next time. Next, the question comes up as to what marker you're measuring, if Supplier A monitors one marker, and Supplier B monitors another, we really can't do any comparison shopping. However, this would be really good information if we could simply get into the ball park on these conversions. I just don't know that the companies are going to be very enthusiastic about this for the reasons mentioned above. We'd probably have to get some independent firm to do the testing on the products so that we have a baseline to compare. I know that there are some company representatives on this list. Do any of you have this sort of information on a per-herb basis? This 5:1 or 6:1 ratio is really about marketing rather than providing practitioners with any real direction on this. Someone out there would be very wise to take the lead on this... -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2007 Report Share Posted March 30, 2007 Just another question... does anyone use Min Tong? When we first were checking around at stocking granules at school, we compared Min Tong, KPC, and some others, and seemed that Min Tong had the most 'accurate' taste. My mentor has been using Qualiherb granules, but I haven't been practicing long enough to ask him any questions yet ;-) Geoff , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Al > Not only that, the quality of the starting materials is very important. I remember Pat from Nuherbs telling me that the majority of US herb pill makers that buy from her by large bulk only care about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 31, 2007 Report Share Posted March 31, 2007 I have used Min Tong, KPC, and Qualiherb. Qualiherb is the best among the three, IMO. Min Tong sometimes uses KPC's when they are short of certain herbs. (I use 95% singles.) Mike L. G Hudson <crudo20 wrote: Just another question... does anyone use Min Tong? When we first were checking around at stocking granules at school, we compared Min Tong, KPC, and some others, and seemed that Min Tong had the most 'accurate' taste. My mentor has been using Qualiherb granules, but I haven't been practicing long enough to ask him any questions yet ;-) Geoff , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Al > Not only that, the quality of the starting materials is very important. I remember Pat from Nuherbs telling me that the majority of US herb pill makers that buy from her by large bulk only care about Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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