gan qi zhi

April 4, 2006

I have yet to hear anyone confirm that there is an actual entry for gan qi

zhi (´ÎÝãÂÚ) in the zhongyidacidian, can someone email this entry to me?

Can someone confirm this exists (Chrisitine Chang? Eric?)

Thanx,

-Jason Blalalck

tel:

<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add me

to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature

like this?

April 5, 2006

Jason,

I have tried different encodings (Big-5, Hz, GB18030, GB2312, UTF-8), in

Windows XP environment but failed to make sense out of the 3 characters. Which

encoding do you use? I'd look it up if I get it right.

Mike L.

wrote:

I have yet to hear anyone confirm that there is an actual entry for gan qi

zhi (´ÎÝãÂÚ) in the zhongyidacidian, can someone email this entry to me?

Can someone confirm this exists (Chrisitine Chang? Eric?)

Thanx,

-Jason Blalalck

tel:

<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add me

to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature

like this?

April 5, 2006

Mike,

It is gan=liver, qi=qi, and zhi=stagnation. The encoding is strange.. I can

read my original message, but I cannot read your copy of it... I think it is

just basic XP default...

Thanx,

-Jason

>

> On Behalf Of Mike Liaw

> Wednesday, April 05, 2006 12:02 AM

>

> Re: gan qi zhi

>

> Jason,

>

> I have tried different encodings (Big-5, Hz, GB18030, GB2312, UTF-8), in

> Windows XP environment but failed to make sense out of the 3 characters.

> Which encoding do you use? I'd look it up if I get it right.

>

> Mike L.

>

> wrote:

> I have yet to hear anyone confirm that there is an actual entry for gan

> qi

> zhi (´ÎÝãÂÚ) in the zhongyidacidian, can someone email this entry to me?

>

> Can someone confirm this exists (Chrisitine Chang? Eric?)

>

> Thanx,

>

> -Jason Blalalck

>

>

> tel:

>

<https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=30064918855 & v0=295000 & k0=1975548621> Add

> me

> to your address book... <http://www.plaxo.com/signature> Want a signature

> like this?

>

April 5, 2006

, " "

wrote:

>

> I have yet to hear anyone confirm that there is an actual entry for

gan qi

> zhi (´ÎÝãÂÚ) in the zhongyidacidian, can someone email this entry to me?

The discussion on this topic was the entry on gan qi yu, not gan qi

zhi. If I recall correctly, Tony Reid was saying that the phrase " gan

qi yu " was never used alone, but it does appear in the zhongyi

dacidian. " Gan qi zhi " was never mentioned in this discussion, so far

as I am aware.

Eric

April 6, 2006

Eric,

Obviously there was some miscommunication, here is what I remember reading,

" Mr. Reid¡¯s handling of the issue of zhi and yu suggests that Reid does not

possess a mastery of medical Chinese. Mr. Reid claims that ¡°no Chinese

person would say gan qi zhi,¡± but this exact term is found in the Zhong Yao

Da Ci Dian (which is effectively the Chinese equivalent of the PD, though it

contains approximately 30,000 terms). "

So I assume from your below comment that you made a typo and gan qi zhi is

NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so, Thanx for the clarification...

-Jason

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:51 AM

>

> Re: gan qi zhi

>

> , " "

> wrote:

> >

> > I have yet to hear anyone confirm that there is an actual entry for

> gan qi

> > zhi (´ÎÝãÂÚ) in the zhongyidacidian, can someone email this entry to me?

>

> The discussion on this topic was the entry on gan qi yu, not gan qi

> zhi. If I recall correctly, Tony Reid was saying that the phrase " gan

> qi yu " was never used alone, but it does appear in the zhongyi

> dacidian. " Gan qi zhi " was never mentioned in this discussion, so far

> as I am aware.

>

> Eric

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

April 6, 2006

, " "

wrote:

> So I assume from your below comment that you made a typo and gan qi

zhi is

> NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so, Thanx for the

clarification...

Yes, it is a typo, should have read gan qi yu. Reid said that the

Chinese would never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi zhi. " Writing too

fast, sorry for the confusion.

Eric

April 7, 2006

wait, wait, wait! I'm totally confused. This starts with Reid saying Gan Qi Yu

is never used

in Chinese.

1) Does Eric or Jason think otherwise?

2) And the dictionaries say.. ?

doug

, " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus

wrote:

>

> , " "

> <@> wrote:

> > So I assume from your below comment that you made a typo and gan qi

> zhi is

> > NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so, Thanx for the

> clarification...

>

> Yes, it is a typo, should have read gan qi yu. Reid said that the

> Chinese would never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi zhi. " Writing too

> fast, sorry for the confusion.

>

> Eric

>

April 7, 2006

Thanks Doug to start this again,

Can I say something- by the way, I am a Chinese,

I disagree that statement: " Yes, it is a typo, should

have read gan qi yu. Reid said that the Chinese would

never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi zhi. " Writing too

fast, sorry for the confusion. "

" gan qi yu " - more emotional

" gan qi zhi " - more physical

for most people use either or

Thanks for everyone

Your real Chinese friend

Christine

--- wrote:

> wait, wait, wait! I'm totally confused. This starts

> with Reid saying Gan Qi Yu is never used

> in Chinese.

> 1) Does Eric or Jason think otherwise?

> 2) And the dictionaries say.. ?

> doug

>

> , " Eric

> Brand " <smilinglotus wrote:

> >

> > , " Jason

> "

> > <@> wrote:

> > > So I assume from your below comment that you

> made a typo and gan qi

> > zhi is

> > > NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so, Thanx

> for the

> > clarification...

> >

> > Yes, it is a typo, should have read gan qi yu.

> Reid said that the

> > Chinese would never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi

> zhi. " Writing too

> > fast, sorry for the confusion.

> >

> > Eric

> >

>

Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM

BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

310-951-8698 (cel)

panasiaintl

" I think, therefore I am. "

April 7, 2006

Christine, so you say that both gan qi yu and gan qi zhi are used in written and

spoken

Chinese?

thanks,

doug

, Christine Chang <panasiaintl

wrote:

>

> Thanks Doug to start this again,

>

> Can I say something- by the way, I am a Chinese,

>

> I disagree that statement: " Yes, it is a typo, should

> have read gan qi yu. Reid said that the Chinese would

> never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi zhi. " Writing too

> fast, sorry for the confusion. "

>

> " gan qi yu " - more emotional

> " gan qi zhi " - more physical

>

> for most people use either or

>

> Thanks for everyone

>

> Your real Chinese friend

> Christine

>

> --- wrote:

>

> > wait, wait, wait! I'm totally confused. This starts

> > with Reid saying Gan Qi Yu is never used

> > in Chinese.

> > 1) Does Eric or Jason think otherwise?

> > 2) And the dictionaries say.. ?

> > doug

> >

> > , " Eric

> > Brand " <smilinglotus@> wrote:

> > >

> > > , " Jason

> > "

> > > <@> wrote:

> > > > So I assume from your below comment that you

> > made a typo and gan qi

> > > zhi is

> > > > NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so, Thanx

> > for the

> > > clarification...

> > >

> > > Yes, it is a typo, should have read gan qi yu.

> > Reid said that the

> > > Chinese would never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi

> > zhi. " Writing too

> > > fast, sorry for the confusion.

> > >

> > > Eric

> > >

> >

>

> Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM

> BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

> American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

> 310-951-8698 (cel)

> panasiaintl

>

> " I think, therefore I am. "

>

April 7, 2006

yes, you got it

--- wrote:

> Christine, so you say that both gan qi yu and gan qi

> zhi are used in written and spoken

> Chinese?

> thanks,

> doug

>

> , Christine

> Chang <panasiaintl wrote:

> >

> > Thanks Doug to start this again,

> >

> > Can I say something- by the way, I am a Chinese,

> >

> > I disagree that statement: " Yes, it is a typo,

> should

> > have read gan qi yu. Reid said that the Chinese

> would

> > never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi zhi. " Writing

> too

> > fast, sorry for the confusion. "

> >

> > " gan qi yu " - more emotional

> > " gan qi zhi " - more physical

> >

> > for most people use either or

> >

> > Thanks for everyone

> >

> > Your real Chinese friend

> > Christine

> >

> > --- wrote:

> >

> > > wait, wait, wait! I'm totally confused. This

> starts

> > > with Reid saying Gan Qi Yu is never used

> > > in Chinese.

> > > 1) Does Eric or Jason think otherwise?

> > > 2) And the dictionaries say.. ?

> > > doug

> > >

> > > , " Eric

> > > Brand " <smilinglotus@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > ,

> " Jason

> > > "

> > > > <@> wrote:

> > > > > So I assume from your below comment that you

> > > made a typo and gan qi

> > > > zhi is

> > > > > NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so,

> Thanx

> > > for the

> > > > clarification...

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it is a typo, should have read gan qi yu.

>

> > > Reid said that the

> > > > Chinese would never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan

> qi

> > > zhi. " Writing too

> > > > fast, sorry for the confusion.

> > > >

> > > > Eric

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM

> > BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

> > American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

> > 310-951-8698 (cel)

> > panasiaintl

> >

> > " I think, therefore I am. "

> >

>

Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM

BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

310-951-8698 (cel)

panasiaintl

" I think, therefore I am. "

April 7, 2006

Christine,

Do you have a source for " gan qi zhi " being used in a medical sense? Like I

and others have said, we have not found it in the dictionary (Zhong yao da

ci dian) nor have I ever seen it in mainstream medical books... A source for

its use with a definition would be very enlightening... Sorry that I don't

just take your word for it...

-Jason

>

> On Behalf Of Christine Chang

> Friday, April 07, 2006 8:52 AM

>

> Re: Re: gan qi zhi

>

> Thanks Doug to start this again,

>

> Can I say something- by the way, I am a Chinese,

>

> I disagree that statement: " Yes, it is a typo, should

> have read gan qi yu. Reid said that the Chinese would

> never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi zhi. " Writing too

> fast, sorry for the confusion. "

>

> " gan qi yu " - more emotional

> " gan qi zhi " - more physical

>

> for most people use either or

>

> Thanks for everyone

>

> Your real Chinese friend

> Christine

>

> --- wrote:

>

> > wait, wait, wait! I'm totally confused. This starts

> > with Reid saying Gan Qi Yu is never used

> > in Chinese.

> > 1) Does Eric or Jason think otherwise?

> > 2) And the dictionaries say.. ?

> > doug

> >

> > , " Eric

> > Brand " <smilinglotus wrote:

> > >

> > > , " Jason

> > "

> > > <@> wrote:

> > > > So I assume from your below comment that you

> > made a typo and gan qi

> > > zhi is

> > > > NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so, Thanx

> > for the

> > > clarification...

> > >

> > > Yes, it is a typo, should have read gan qi yu.

> > Reid said that the

> > > Chinese would never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi

> > zhi. " Writing too

> > > fast, sorry for the confusion.

> > >

> > > Eric

> > >

> >

>

> Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM

> BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

> American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

> 310-951-8698 (cel)

> panasiaintl

>

> " I think, therefore I am. "

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

April 8, 2006

From the YiZongJinJian:

Za Bing Xin Fa Ya yao jue- Xu La Men- Xiao Yao San:

modification:

1.Gan Qi Re: add chao zhi zi, dan pi

2. gan qi zhi: add chen pi

3. gan qi yu: add chuan xiong, xiang fu

........

dictionay is for the people checking the Chinese

words, but sometime will still have some missing...,

Sorry, you can't find that from a dictionay which the

one I've ever read it.., and I belived that my English

will never better than your English also...

my 2 cents

Christine

---

wrote:

> Christine,

>

> Do you have a source for " gan qi zhi " being used in

> a medical sense? Like I

> and others have said, we have not found it in the

> dictionary (Zhong yao da

> ci dian) nor have I ever seen it in mainstream

> medical books... A source for

> its use with a definition would be very

> enlightening... Sorry that I don't

> just take your word for it...

>

> -Jason

>

> >

> > On

> Behalf Of Christine Chang

> > Friday, April 07, 2006 8:52 AM

> >

> > Re: Re: gan qi zhi

> >

> > Thanks Doug to start this again,

> >

> > Can I say something- by the way, I am a Chinese,

> >

> > I disagree that statement: " Yes, it is a typo,

> should

> > have read gan qi yu. Reid said that the Chinese

> would

> > never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi zhi. " Writing

> too

> > fast, sorry for the confusion. "

> >

> > " gan qi yu " - more emotional

> > " gan qi zhi " - more physical

> >

> > for most people use either or

> >

> > Thanks for everyone

> >

> > Your real Chinese friend

> > Christine

> >

> > --- wrote:

> >

> > > wait, wait, wait! I'm totally confused. This

> starts

> > > with Reid saying Gan Qi Yu is never used

> > > in Chinese.

> > > 1) Does Eric or Jason think otherwise?

> > > 2) And the dictionaries say.. ?

> > > doug

> > >

> > > , " Eric

> > > Brand " <smilinglotus wrote:

> > > >

> > > > ,

> " Jason

> > > "

> > > > <@> wrote:

> > > > > So I assume from your below comment that you

> > > made a typo and gan qi

> > > > zhi is

> > > > > NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so,

> Thanx

> > > for the

> > > > clarification...

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it is a typo, should have read gan qi yu.

> > > Reid said that the

> > > > Chinese would never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan

> qi

> > > zhi. " Writing too

> > > > fast, sorry for the confusion.

> > > >

> > > > Eric

> > > >

> > >

> >

> > Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM

> > BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

> > American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

> > 310-951-8698 (cel)

> > panasiaintl

> >

> > " I think, therefore I am. "

> >

> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various

> professional services, including

> > board approved continuing education classes, an

> annual conference and a

> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

> >

April 10, 2006

Just to be clear (until proven otherwise)... gan qi zhi is colloquial, not a

technical medical phrase. Christine (or others) do you think otherwise?

-

>

> On Behalf Of Christine Chang

> Friday, April 07, 2006 5:58 PM

>

> Re: Re: gan qi zhi

>

> yes, you got it

>

> --- wrote:

>

> > Christine, so you say that both gan qi yu and gan qi

> > zhi are used in written and spoken

> > Chinese?

> > thanks,

> > doug

> >

> > , Christine

> > Chang <panasiaintl wrote:

> > >

> > > Thanks Doug to start this again,

> > >

> > > Can I say something- by the way, I am a Chinese,

> > >

> > > I disagree that statement: " Yes, it is a typo,

> > should

> > > have read gan qi yu. Reid said that the Chinese

> > would

> > > never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan qi zhi. " Writing

> > too

> > > fast, sorry for the confusion. "

> > >

> > > " gan qi yu " - more emotional

> > > " gan qi zhi " - more physical

> > >

> > > for most people use either or

> > >

> > > Thanks for everyone

> > >

> > > Your real Chinese friend

> > > Christine

> > >

> > > --- wrote:

> > >

> > > > wait, wait, wait! I'm totally confused. This

> > starts

> > > > with Reid saying Gan Qi Yu is never used

> > > > in Chinese.

> > > > 1) Does Eric or Jason think otherwise?

> > > > 2) And the dictionaries say.. ?

> > > > doug

> > > >

> > > > , " Eric

> > > > Brand " <smilinglotus@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

> > " Jason

> > > > "

> > > > > <@> wrote:

> > > > > > So I assume from your below comment that you

> > > > made a typo and gan qi

> > > > > zhi is

> > > > > > NOT in the ZYDCD.. IS that correct? If so,

> > Thanx

> > > > for the

> > > > > clarification...

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, it is a typo, should have read gan qi yu.

> >

> > > > Reid said that the

> > > > > Chinese would never say " gan qi yu, " not " gan

> > qi

> > > > zhi. " Writing too

> > > > > fast, sorry for the confusion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Eric

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM

> > > BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

> > > American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

> > > 310-951-8698 (cel)

> > > panasiaintl

> > >

> > > " I think, therefore I am. "

> > >

> >

>

> Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM

> BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

> American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

> 310-951-8698 (cel)

> panasiaintl

>

> " I think, therefore I am. "

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

April 10, 2006

, " "

wrote:

>

> Just to be clear (until proven otherwise)... gan qi zhi is

colloquial, not a

> technical medical phrase. Christine (or others) do you think otherwise?

I think you may be making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to

be. And slightly more polite responses to the people adding to the

discussion might be well-received as well. " Gan qi zhi " is not as

commonly used in literature because it is not as nice and symmetrical

of an expression in Chinese as the more commonly-used " gan qi yu zhi "

and " gan qi yu jie. " The use of " zhi " vs. " yu " in Chinese medical

literature is somewhat related to particular habits of the language,

certain things are said to depress, while other things are often said

to stagnate. Have the concepts always been crystal-clear and

distinctly applied in all situations? No. But they do have a

slightly different nuance of use that has evolved in accordance with

theory and treatment.

So " yu " (PD: depression) is similar to " zhi " (stagnation), but they

have slightly different habits of use and a slightly different nuance.

While " yu " was used in the Su Wen in the Han Dynasty, at that time

its meaning was not particularly distinct from stagnation of flow, and

it wasn't used nearly as much as it was after the Song-Jin-Yuan

Dynasties, when its concept became more distinct.

Basically the terms " yu " and " zhi " are very close, but " yu " has an

additional connotation of containment, like something closed and

contained that is stewing in on itself. " Wood likes orderly

reaching, " and liver qi depression reflects an inability of qi to flow

freely, to " orderly reach (tiao2 da2), " carrying a subtle concept of

being closed in on itself.

Yu, depression, truly evolved into an independent concept in Chinese

medicine because of the works of Zhu Dan-Xi. By establishing

treatments in accordance with disease causes, Zhu fleshed out the

concept of yu, and later medical texts used the term far more

commonly. In the formula yue ju wan, Zhu addressed the depression of

multiple types of evil and developed clear methods of treatment. The

expression " kai yu " ( " [to] open depression " ) arose as a method of

treatment, which clarifies the method of rectifying qi used to treat

these conditions. Rather than simply moving, we also see the concept

of opening as part of the treatment principle.

Basically these two terms have a lot of overlap and are quite similar.

Many writers and practitioners do not maintain a distinction between

them, using the word " stagnation " to cover both concepts. I think

that it is useful to preserve the distinction because it helps us

choose medicinals with greater specificity and greater clarity of the

CM concepts. But obviously I favor this approach in general.

Eric

April 10, 2006

Eric,

The reason I think it is important to maintain the distinction between

yu and zhi is preceisely because of yu's association with Jin-Yuan

Li-Zhu medicine. For me, the term immediately brings to mind both Li

Gao and Dan Xi's doctrines. Although Li does not discuss yu in the

same way as Zhu, yu is an important disease mechanism in the

engenderment of yin fire. IMO, if one does not understand and keep in

mind these teachings, one will not understand why certain mult-pattern

conditions present the way they do.

Bob

April 10, 2006

Eric and Others,

I thank you for your comments, but I do not think I am making a bigger deal

" than it should be. " A big deal is when one says there is a clear

distinction between the terms at hand, (especially without some

reference)... But there are two separate issues:

1) The difference between 'zhi' and 'yu' as you mention below. There are of

course some distinctions between these two and some overlap, notice the

essay I wrote on this subject:

Chinese Medicine/1ArticlesHP.htm

But 2) - There is a completely different issue when you use 'zhi' and 'yu'

in relation the Liver. {gan qi zhi & gan qi yu}. The reason I make such a

big deal is because others do. I have heard others make a clear distinction

between liver qi constraint (yu) and liver qi stagnation (zhi) - and

therefore proclaim different formulas accordingly. I have never understood

what this means or where it comes form, and hence this is what sparked the

writing of the above essay. But when all is said and done I do not feel

such a distinction is supported in the Chinese Literature. So what is the

big deal? Well, students are utterly confused by such black and white

statements, when in reality and according to at least the literate I have

seen, there is no clear distinction. Things are murky.

Again check out the above essay for a complete discussion.

As for your request for more politeness, I find no harshness with me saying

" until proven otherwise " or whatever you think is 'not polite'. I have

asked Christine for sources. If she is going to say one is emotional or one

physical, it would be real helpful to see where this comes from, even if it

is an offbeat pre-modern source or something. But without something, well,

it is just dust in the wind... She once said she had an entry in the ZYDCD

(or similar dictionary)(??) which would clarify things greatly, but has not

presented it.

So to some up, 'zhi' and 'yu' have different uses, slightly difference

nuances, and much overlap (We all should agree on this) - but I put forth

that gan qi zhi is a colloquial phrase for none other than gan qi yu, (or

gan qi yu jie etc) - From your below passage, I assume you agree? Or do you

see some distinction in the literature.. Actually I have yet to see it (gan

qi zhi) differentiated in any medical literature. If there is such a

distinction somewhere I am eager to see it.

-

>

> On Behalf Of Eric Brand

> Monday, April 10, 2006 9:57 AM

>

> Re: gan qi zhi

>

> , " "

> wrote:

> >

> > Just to be clear (until proven otherwise)... gan qi zhi is

> colloquial, not a

> > technical medical phrase. Christine (or others) do you think otherwise?

>

> I think you may be making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to

> be. And slightly more polite responses to the people adding to the

> discussion might be well-received as well. " Gan qi zhi " is not as

> commonly used in literature because it is not as nice and symmetrical

> of an expression in Chinese as the more commonly-used " gan qi yu zhi "

> and " gan qi yu jie. " The use of " zhi " vs. " yu " in Chinese medical

> literature is somewhat related to particular habits of the language,

> certain things are said to depress, while other things are often said

> to stagnate. Have the concepts always been crystal-clear and

> distinctly applied in all situations? No. But they do have a

> slightly different nuance of use that has evolved in accordance with

> theory and treatment.

>

> So " yu " (PD: depression) is similar to " zhi " (stagnation), but they

> have slightly different habits of use and a slightly different nuance.

> While " yu " was used in the Su Wen in the Han Dynasty, at that time

> its meaning was not particularly distinct from stagnation of flow, and

> it wasn't used nearly as much as it was after the Song-Jin-Yuan

> Dynasties, when its concept became more distinct.

>

> Basically the terms " yu " and " zhi " are very close, but " yu " has an

> additional connotation of containment, like something closed and

> contained that is stewing in on itself. " Wood likes orderly

> reaching, " and liver qi depression reflects an inability of qi to flow

> freely, to " orderly reach (tiao2 da2), " carrying a subtle concept of

> being closed in on itself.

>

> Yu, depression, truly evolved into an independent concept in Chinese

> medicine because of the works of Zhu Dan-Xi. By establishing

> treatments in accordance with disease causes, Zhu fleshed out the

> concept of yu, and later medical texts used the term far more

> commonly. In the formula yue ju wan, Zhu addressed the depression of

> multiple types of evil and developed clear methods of treatment. The

> expression " kai yu " ( " [to] open depression " ) arose as a method of

> treatment, which clarifies the method of rectifying qi used to treat

> these conditions. Rather than simply moving, we also see the concept

> of opening as part of the treatment principle.

>

> Basically these two terms have a lot of overlap and are quite similar.

> Many writers and practitioners do not maintain a distinction between

> them, using the word " stagnation " to cover both concepts. I think

> that it is useful to preserve the distinction because it helps us

> choose medicinals with greater specificity and greater clarity of the

> CM concepts. But obviously I favor this approach in general.

>

> Eric

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

April 11, 2006

From what I've learned zhi are Qi complaints, belching etc... " upset qi " ,

generally

associated with liver and food stagnations. Yu is more global, also oriented

to qi AND the blood, thus also has pain (not just distension) type complaints.

Yu, of

course, is associated with emotions. Yu herbs associated with Chen Pi, Zhi ke,

xiang fu, He

huan Pi, Ju Jin, Ye jiao teng, most, of course, having the somewhat odd dual

functions of

Shen and moving blood together. Zhi herbs include more Qing Pi, Zhi Shi and Mu

Xiang, all

Qi and little blood orientation.