RE: Digest Number 2784

[Guest guest]

Dear Brian Allen,

 

I understand your point of view entirely, and if you wish to use powdered

extracts by simply dividing the raw herb dose by 5, you may find with

experience that it works quite well for you and your patients.

 

Your question was: " A large formula, say 20 herbs totaling 250g, decocted

down to 2 cups of liquid, should have far more solute (I think I have the

right word) in that liquid than a small formula would, say 4 herbs totaling

30g. With so much more solute, wouldn't there be more " stuff " with which to

make the powder? "

 

For the sake of simplicity, let's refer to the extracted substances of a

decoction or extract powdering process as " extracted material " . From your

example, there may or may not be more extracted material from the larger raw

herb decoction than the smaller one. There is likely more extracted material

from a larger raw herb formula, but even this quantity depends on what

active ingredients are in each herb, and how soluble the ingredients are in

the solvent (usually water). Scientifically, what is extracted are chemical

constituents that can change in the presence of or in interaction with other

chemical constituents. As herbs can contain 5-50 active ingredients, again,

depending upon the solubility and the interaction of these constituents, it

is not impossible that the resulting extracted material in the 2 formulas

from your example be similar in amount.

 

In manufactured 5:1 extract powder formulas, the resulting extracted

material is even more closely tied to the points I made above. A 500

kilogram capacity vat is used for manufacturing the all Mayway's formulas.

Regardless of the number of herbs in the formula, or the proportional weight

of each herb, the same amount (roughly 300 kilos) of herbs is used to make a

batch. Therefore, the amount of extract powder at the end will be roughly

the same for formulas with 3 herbs or 30, depending upon the natural yield

of the ingredients.

 

I am not sure if you have experience using prepared herbs in teapill form,

but if you do, I am sure you would agree that it would not be clinically

necessary to give 144 teapills a day to a patient receiving Tian Wang Bu Xin

Wan, to get the same level of therapeutic effect you see when prescribing 36

teapills a day of Er Chen Wan. I think most practitioners would agree that

this would not be necessary.

 

On the other hand, we may decide that a given patient should have a higher

or lower dose than standard dose of teapills or extract powder, based on

weight, condition, sensitivity to herbs, etc.

 

To bring it back to raw herbs, let's think about traditional raw powder Xiao

Yao San. True, there are exact dosages of each herb mentioned that should be

combined together as a powder. At the end the standard dosage is to " take as

a draft in 6-9 gram doses. " - Bensky pp. 147. If you tailored this formula

for a patient and doubled the number of herbs, would you double the raw

powder dosage? If so, until what daily dosage could a raw powder be

increased to and still be consumed by the patient without ill effect? With

your example of " A large formula, say 20 herbs totaling 250g " , a straight

division by 5 as a conversion to 5:1 extract powder would give us a daily

dosage of 50 grams, or half a 100 gram bottle.

 

The idea I am trying to get across is that using extract powders is

different than using raw herbs. Quite simply, they do not function in

exactly the same way. As far as I have seen, all extract powder formulas,

whether singles added together or pre-maid formulas rely on a dosage ratio,

not a straight conversion of raw herb dosages.

 

These discussions are good to have, because the use of 5:1 extract powders

compared to the use of decoctions is in its infancy. They simply haven't

been in use over time to the degree that decoctions or even teapills have.

Obviously the ancient practitioners did not have access to this new

technology. As we grapple with these issues I hope that we deepen our

understanding.

 

I hope that this clarifies my previous explanation of extract powder dosing.

Please let me know if you have further questions, or you can contact me

directly at: 1-800-262-9929 or laurastropes.

 

Thanks,

Laura

 

Message: 6

Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:58:36 -0000

" bcataiji " <bcataiji

Re: Digest Number 2774 - 5:1 powder dose help needed

 

, " Laura Stropes "

<laurastropes wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> Sorry for the belated response. I was out of the office, but I

wanted to

> respond a bit to the questions on 5:1 extract powders, if anyone

is still

> interested. My name is Laura Stropes, and I am an herbal

consultant with

> Mayway.

 

Thanks, Laura, for the information. I'm still not certain that I

understand / believe what you say about dosing.

 

A large formula, say 20 herbs totaling 250g, decocted down to 2

cups of liquid, should have far more solute (I think I have the

right word) in that liquid than a small formula would, say 4 herbs

totaling 30g. With so much more solute, wouldn't there be

more " stuff " with which to make the powder?

 

And then what about custom formulas where powders of single herbs

are combined. The single herbs are getting decocted relatively the

same way, so there shouldn't be that much difference.

 

So, if I use individual herb powders (rather than the ready made

formula powder) to make er chen tang, why would I give the same

exact dose as if I used individual herb powders to make liu jun zi

tang which contains er chen tang plus additional ingredients. The

same could be said for ban xia huo po tang and huo xiang zheng qi

tang.

 

Again, thanks for the information.

 

Brian C. Allen

 

 

 

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