new subject

[Guest guest]

hey everybody

just a quick question if anyone out there has an opinion they'd like to share-i

work with a 72

year old chinese acupuncturist- he's been in practice for like 65 years- or so -

anyway- we

have this woman who brings in her 5 year old son who has a plethora of

complaints- at least

according to her- so the point is - the laodaye or laozaogao-im not sure which-

only uses 30

gauge needles- and only uses strong stim- so he takes this child and needles gb

30 - then

st36- li4- by this time the child is screaming- crying- the mother is saying

don't worry- just

think how good you're going to feel- then come the nasal problems- bi tong-

ouch- the kind

is balling- everyone in the office is looking at each other thinking that we

must trying to saw

this child in two- it's actually very disturbing- at least to me- and the child-

im not sure if

the mother has some kind of Munchausen disease and may actually enjoy this- but

im not a

psychologist- and maybe im just being too sensitive-maybe he's doing what needs

to be

done-- so anyway- what would u do--is this question ok on this forum?

thanks

chet cardinale

[Guest guest]

Your reaction is pretty clear. I don't know necessarily if its all that bad.

I've had kids start

crying once they realize they are going to get needled. No amount of soothing

helps them.

One of my students is a pediactric acupuncturist getting her license in

California. I've

watched her needle with Seirins and they still cry but then later they are

happy. If they are

old enough she will let them touch the needle, little calming tricks but it

doesn't always

work from what I've seen.

 

I hate to see kids cry but if you are going to do acupuncture it seems like a

good chance

they will. Everybody has their level of skill with kids. I believe it is in the

Julian Scott book

that he says it doesn't have to have the kids cry if it is done fast enough. But

I've seen my

student have that work about half the time. Otherwise they cry.

 

Whether you think the " trauma " balances the benefits is something you will have

to work

out. Obviously your doctor feels it does. One can guess that he doesn't stop for

crying

adults either! Perhaps your doctor colleague could needle without the baby

crying but

thinks that kind of gentle needling won't help or he just doesn't think it's

neccesarily such

a bad thing and can't be bothered to take the time to be gentle. I know one of

my first

memories is of getting my ears cleaned with water. I remember it as horrible but

don't

know if it scarred me for life.

 

This child's mother has probably seen her kid cry a lot. In fact she may have

been up all

night listening to him. If the baby cried for 10 minutes in the office it might

be worth it.

I'm just presenting a possibility of the other side of the scenario.

doug

 

, " needlemedeep1x "

<needlemedeep1x wrote:

>

> hey everybody

> just a quick question if anyone out there has an opinion they'd like to

share-i work with

a 72

> year old chinese acupuncturist- he's been in practice for like 65 years- or so

- anyway-

we

> have this woman who brings in her 5 year old son who has a plethora of

complaints- at

least

> according to her- so the point is - the laodaye or laozaogao-im not sure

which- only

uses 30

> gauge needles- and only uses strong stim- so he takes this child and needles

gb 30 -

then

> st36- li4- by this time the child is screaming- crying- the mother is saying

don't worry-

just

> think how good you're going to feel- then come the nasal problems- bi tong-

ouch- the

kind

> is balling- everyone in the office is looking at each other thinking that we

must trying to

saw

> this child in two- it's actually very disturbing- at least to me- and the

child- im not sure

if

> the mother has some kind of Munchausen disease and may actually enjoy this-

but im

not a

> psychologist- and maybe im just being too sensitive-maybe he's doing what

needs to

be

> done-- so anyway- what would u do--is this question ok on this forum?

> thanks

> chet cardinale

>

[Guest guest]

I saw the same thing when I interned in the hospital in Nanjing, China. I

worked in a ward which specialized in cerebral palsy, we did a lot of scalp

acupuncture, as well as 30 gauge body acupuncture needles not retained. My

personal experience is similar to yours, you see a screaming child crying for

his/her life and you empathize with them. On one instance I helped to restrain

a child's head during the scalp acupuncture; of course I could over-power the

child's will, but when I applied only the minimum necessary resistance to help

steady the child's head this particular child stopped resisting and with some

gentle words of reassurance the needling when smoothly. I don't know if my

being a foreigner had any influence on the situation but I think it was from the

gentle reassuring manner. But, it was interesting to see that the minute we

finished putting the needles in the crying would subside ... you could look

around and see kids sitting there talking with their

family members with scalp needles retained with e-stim and their would be no

crying ( I think I may even have video footage).

 

A pediatric e-stim is less invasive and more appropriate depending on the

child's age. You can even hold the ground rod against their leg or something to

make skin contact while they’re hanging on to mom/dad. Developing the child's

trust by doing some pediatric tuina with some gentle reassuring massage one

visit, and working up to placing a cup on their back during a subsequent visit,

all the time reinforcing them with a " high five " and a " cool " sticker. I've

seen a practitioner needle them self allowing the child to tap the needle thru

the guide tube to show them that it isn't painful and then remarking on how cool

it looks ... children are easily influenced ... one time a saw a child take a

major spill at a McDonalds, I just knew that it had to hurt ... and the child

looks up at his father and his father gives him the two thumbs up sign and a big

smile and the child comes running over to him like nothing was the matter.

 

If you condition the child to think that going to the acupuncturist's is a

" cool " thing then they won't be so bothered by the needles ... but a thinner

needle couldn't hurt ... at least not as much as a thicker one. Let them know

that they are getting to be a big boy/girl now and that pretty soon they will be

able to get acupuncture just like mom/dad. Anyway, that's my take on it ...

I've had a couple of classes in pediatric acupuncture & tuina and I've assisted

with Alex Tiberi who specializes in working with pediatrics and that's basically

the same approach. You earn their trust and when they say they are ready to get

some acupuncture then you get a needle in them and show them that it doesn't

hurt and the battle is over. I start off early with all the kids who come in

with their parents and that way it’s a lot easier when they actually need some

treatment. The pediatric e-stim is a good intermediary step.

 

I'm not saying the 30 gauge style is incorrect, I'm just saying that there are

other styles. " There is more than one way to catch a fish. "

 

 

needlemedeep1x <needlemedeep1x wrote:

hey everybody

just a quick question if anyone out there has an opinion they'd like to share-i

work with a 72

year old chinese acupuncturist- he's been in practice for like 65 years- or so -

anyway- we

have this woman who brings in her 5 year old son who has a plethora of

complaints- at least

according to her- so the point is - the laodaye or laozaogao-im not sure which-

only uses 30

gauge needles- and only uses strong stim- so he takes this child and needles gb

30 - then

st36- li4- by this time the child is screaming- crying- the mother is saying

don't worry- just

think how good you're going to feel- then come the nasal problems- bi tong-

ouch- the kind

is balling- everyone in the office is looking at each other thinking that we

must trying to saw

this child in two- it's actually very disturbing- at least to me- and the child-

im not sure if

the mother has some kind of Munchausen disease and may actually enjoy this- but

im not a

psychologist- and maybe im just being too sensitive-maybe he's doing what needs

to be

done-- so anyway- what would u do--is this question ok on this forum?

thanks

chet cardinale

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

When I was an acupuncture intern in China, this scenario was pretty

common. Children were routinely needled with 30-gauge needles with

strong stimulation. The children balled their heads off through the

entire procedure. SOP.

 

Similarly, when I worked in the pediatric tuina department, children

would cry during the treatment, but the treatment was continued no

matter what. You always knew where the pediatric tuina department was

by the crying emanating from it. Again, SOP.

 

BTW, in both departments, such treatment appeared to be

therapeutically effective.

 

The question is, is this kind of behavior ok here? Personally, I would

say not. Is it necessary? Again, I would say not. The Japanese

Shoni-shin practitioners get good clinical results without this sturm

und drang. Eventually, I gave up trying to do pediatric tuina on

little Americans because of the upsetment for everyone involved. This

is why I personally prefer treating infants and young children with

internally administered herbs. If they cry, at least it's not in my

office in front of all my other patients.

 

In my experience, either newly arrived Chinese practitioners develop a

Chinese-only patient-based practice or they learn to tone down their

approach to accomodate American norms and tolerances. That being said,

IMHO, it's probably a waste of qi to try to explain this to your

teacher. Coming from a student, this may offend him, thus ruining your

relationship with him. And, as a venerable old master, he's not likely

to hear you in any case. He's probably convinced he is right in what

he's doing. Old dog, new tricks, ya know? So my bottom-line advice:

Learn whatever good stuff he has to offer and leave the rest.

 

Bob