Guest guest Posted June 15, 2006 Report Share Posted June 15, 2006 Indian male, 3.7 y.o; very alert and bright, sunny disposition; seems easily bored Parents are young professionals who seem very compliant thusfar, and avow that they are willing to continue treatment for the " longhaul " Breastfed for about 3 months All " regular " immunizations Only one instance of an ear infection Diagnosed early (3 mos) with food allergies, later with environmental allergies Asthma: manifests few Sx and has never had an " asthmatic attack " Often has bronchial congestion and gets colds and runny nose His eyes have good Shen and there are no collapses of energy except at night There are no clear signs of phlegm or heat or deficiency No observable finger vein Rash is itchy, skin dry, and the eczema looks like patches of reptilian skin, primarily on the lower extremities (occasional small patches on the ventral aspect of the wrist); redder than the surrounding area, but no visible signs of exudate Marked, itchy dandruff He is strong with good energy & appetite; BM 1-2x/day; constipated on rare occasions No unusual color on the face; parents moisturize his skin every two hours with Aquaphor when he is at home; occasional use of hydrocortisone at home and at daycare Pulse: rapid, but not in excess of 110-120, possibly slippery Tongue: quite red, neither excessively wet nor dry; deep center crack that extends to lung area but not the tip Cervical chain lymph nodes visible at a distance He is generally warm, kicks covers off at night; eczema exacerbated by the sun Plays outside at daycare for an hour per day - asphalt, dirt, grass Wears long pants except when sleeping Good appetite, vegan diet; diagnosed allergic to wheat, milk, corn, peanuts, plus a couple of other things; (his mother consumed the allergic foods during pregnancy); also diagnosed with environmental allergies TV limited to half hour per day I have seen this child for four visits to date. His initial diagnosis was LPF (lingering pathogenic factor) with damp heat; and SP and LU qi xu. We began with advising the parents to eliminate all known food allergens, and ways to reduce environmental issues in the home. Treatment has generally been to needle no more than four points bilaterally with in/out method - LI 11, LU 5, ST 40, SP 10, ST 36 - which he tolerates well. We have then used cupping on the large patches on his legs, which often elicits a yellowish fluid similar to what one would expect with Si Feng. (I have chosen not to needle Si Feng to date, not wishing to jeopardize the trust I've built with him. He loves the cupping game and often participates in it). He was markedly worse the week after the first treatment, but I think that was purely coincidental. Our weather had been damp and humid for the first time this year. On the third visit, his eczema was barely visible and the parents very excited and optimistic. His father occasionally works from home, so the child was not at daycare that week, and the father could more strictly control his diet and also moisturize his skin frequently. Yesterday was the fourth visit, and he had experienced an exacerbation of the condition again, not entirely coinciding with his return to daycare. There were claw marks still visible on his skin from the scratching two days prior. We asked the parents to avoid the use of the hydrocortisone cream if at all possible. (Apparently the people at daycare become frustrated with his scratching and apply it just to get him to stop.........with the parents' permission) My questions are 1) what sort of ointment or topical agent would you recommend?, 2) what herbal formula(s)? It would be far easier to use a patent formula, but I can also have an herbalist compound something for him, given the exact proportions. Appreciate your thoughts on this case. Many thanks for the help! Kay King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Sorry to post this again, but I never saw it on the List, and received no replies. Surely could use some input. -Indian male, 3.7 y.o; very alert and bright, sunny disposition; seems easily bored -Parents are young professionals who seem very compliant thusfar, and avow that they are willing to continue treatment for the " longhaul " -Breastfed for about 3 months -All " regular " immunizations -Only one instance of an ear infection -Diagnosed early (3 mos) with food allergies, later with environmental allergies -Asthma: manifests few Sx and has never had an " asthmatic attack " -Often has bronchial congestion and gets colds and runny nose -His eyes have good Shen and there are no collapses of energy except at night -There are no clear signs of phlegm or heat or deficiency -No observable finger vein -Rash is itchy, skin dry, and the eczema looks like patches of reptilian skin, primarily on the lower extremities (occasional small patches on the ventral aspect of the wrist); redder than the surrounding area, but no visible signs of exudate -Marked, itchy dandruff -He is strong with good energy & appetite; BM 1-2x/day; constipated on rare occasions -No unusual color on the face; parents moisturize his skin every two hours with Aquaphor when he is at home; occasional use of hydrocortisone at home and at daycare -Pulse: rapid, but not in excess of 110-120, possibly slippery -Tongue: quite red, neither excessively wet nor dry; deep center crack that extends to lung area but not the tip -Cervical chain lymph nodes visible at a distance -He is generally warm, kicks covers off at night; eczema exacerbated by the sun -Plays outside at daycare for an hour per day - asphalt, dirt, grass -Wears long pants except when sleeping -Good appetite, vegan diet; diagnosed allergic to wheat, milk, corn, peanuts, plus a couple of other things; (his mother consumed the allergic foods during pregnancy); also diagnosed with environmental allergies -TV limited to half hour per day I have seen this child for four visits to date. His initial diagnosis was LPF (lingering pathogenic factor) with damp heat; and SP and LU qi xu. We began with advising the parents to eliminate all known food allergens, and ways to reduce environmental issues in the home. Treatment has generally been to needle no more than four points bilaterally with in/out method - LI 11, LU 5, ST 40, SP 10, ST 36 - which he tolerates well. We have then used cupping on the large patches on his legs, which often elicits a yellowish fluid similar to what one would expect with Si Feng. (I have chosen not to needle Si Feng to date, not wishing to jeopardize the trust I've built with him. He loves the cupping game and often participates in it). He was markedly worse the week after the first treatment, but I think that was purely coincidental. Our weather had been damp and humid for the first time this year. On the third visit, his eczema was barely visible and the parents very excited and optimistic. His father occasionally works from home, so the child was not at daycare that week, and the father could more strictly control his diet and also moisturize his skin frequently. At that visit I also put him on flax seed oil for the skin dryness. Yesterday was the fourth visit, and he had experienced an exacerbation of the condition again, not entirely coinciding with his return to daycare. There were claw marks still visible on his skin from the scratching two days prior. We asked the parents to avoid the use of the hydrocortisone cream if at all possible. (Apparently the people at daycare become frustrated with his scratching and apply it just to get him to stop.........with the parents' permission) My questions are 1)what sort of ointment or topical agent would you recommend for the intense itching?, 2)what herbal formula(s)? It would be far easier to use a patent formula, but I can also have an herbalist compound something for him, given the exact proportions. I'm not particularly fond of homeopathics, but will try to keep an open mind about that. Appreciate your thoughts on this case. Many thanks for the help! Kay King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 I would suggest you look at this article from the Journal of http://www.jcm.co.uk/media/sample_articles/Eczema.pdf? fe=bedb56152f8eab01a76df396944a9a3f or go to www.jcm.co.uk and look under their sample articles or google under mazin eczema. Blue boppy also has a short eczema course. , " spy9doc " <spy9doc wrote: > > Sorry to post this again, but I never saw it on the List, and > received no replies. Surely could use some input. > > -Indian male, 3.7 y.o; very alert and bright, sunny disposition; seems > easily bored > -Parents are young professionals who seem very compliant thusfar, and > avow that they are willing to continue treatment for the " longhaul " > -Breastfed for about 3 months > -All " regular " immunizations > -Only one instance of an ear infection > -Diagnosed early (3 mos) with food allergies, later with environmental > allergies > -Asthma: manifests few Sx and has never had an " asthmatic attack " > -Often has bronchial congestion and gets colds and runny nose > -His eyes have good Shen and there are no collapses of energy except > at night > -There are no clear signs of phlegm or heat or deficiency > -No observable finger vein > -Rash is itchy, skin dry, and the eczema looks like patches of > reptilian skin, primarily on the lower extremities (occasional small > patches on the ventral aspect of the wrist); redder than the > surrounding area, but no visible signs of exudate > -Marked, itchy dandruff > -He is strong with good energy & appetite; BM 1-2x/day; constipated on > rare occasions > -No unusual color on the face; parents moisturize his skin every two > hours with Aquaphor when he is at home; occasional use of > hydrocortisone at home and at daycare > -Pulse: rapid, but not in excess of 110-120, possibly slippery > -Tongue: quite red, neither excessively wet nor dry; deep center crack > that extends to lung area but not the tip > -Cervical chain lymph nodes visible at a distance > -He is generally warm, kicks covers off at night; eczema exacerbated > by the sun > -Plays outside at daycare for an hour per day - asphalt, dirt, grass > -Wears long pants except when sleeping > -Good appetite, vegan diet; diagnosed allergic to wheat, milk, corn, > peanuts, plus a couple of other things; (his mother consumed the > allergic foods during pregnancy); also diagnosed with environmental > allergies > -TV limited to half hour per day > > I have seen this child for four visits to date. His initial diagnosis > was LPF (lingering pathogenic factor) with damp heat; and SP and LU > qi xu. We began with advising the parents to eliminate all known > food allergens, and ways to reduce environmental issues in the home. > Treatment has generally been to needle no more than four points > bilaterally with in/out method - LI 11, LU 5, ST 40, SP 10, ST 36 - > which he tolerates well. We have then used cupping on the large > patches on his legs, which often elicits a yellowish fluid similar to > what one would expect with Si Feng. (I have chosen not to needle Si > Feng to date, not wishing to jeopardize the trust I've built with > him. He loves the cupping game and often participates in it). > > He was markedly worse the week after the first treatment, but I think > that was purely coincidental. Our weather had been damp and humid > for the first time this year. On the third visit, his eczema was > barely visible and the parents very excited and optimistic. His > father occasionally works from home, so the child was not at daycare > that week, and the father could more strictly control his diet and > also moisturize his skin frequently. At that visit I also put him on > flax seed oil for the skin dryness. > > Yesterday was the fourth visit, and he had experienced an > exacerbation of the condition again, not entirely coinciding with his > return to daycare. There were claw marks still visible on his skin > from the scratching two days prior. We asked the parents to avoid > the use of the hydrocortisone cream if at all possible. (Apparently > the people at daycare become frustrated with his scratching and apply > it just to get him to stop.........with the parents' permission) > > My questions are 1)what sort of ointment or topical agent would you > recommend for the intense itching?, 2)what herbal formula(s)? > It would be far easier to use a patent formula, but I can also have > an herbalist compound something for him, given the exact proportions. > I'm not particularly fond of homeopathics, but will try to keep an > open mind about that. > > Appreciate your thoughts on this case. Many thanks for the help! > > Kay King > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Several thoughts/questions: Does the " Indian " ancestry mean American Indian or Asian Indian? Genetic factors as relevant to diet are quite different for these two groups. Asian Indians are generally more tolerant of vegan diets and are often more knowledgeable in making them work. For American Indians they can be disastrous, as these people were hunter/gatherers until recently, need fish and at least some red meat in diet, and do not tolerate grains well (high rates of diabetes). EFA deficiency could well be a major factor here, for which herbal formulas would be relatively ineffective. Commercial flax seed oil is often rancid, it spoils extremely rapidly - begins to significantly degrade within 15 minutes of extraction. Also, flax seed oil is not an adequate source of EFAs for most people, as the conversion rate for alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) into eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). See for more explanation: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/blog/?p=403 The flax seed oil scam I've seen quite a few vegan families over the years, and very few of them are healthy. And children who are born of vegan mothers often have significant health problems. Strict vegan diets exclude dairy, but I find a lot of these people crave animal protein, so often gravitate toward dairy and soy products to get more protein, both of which are usually a disaster and cause allergies. You mentioned that the boy was breast-fed for only 3 months - what was given after that period? Possibly soy milk? I've seen cases of where soy milk and other soy products (tofu, soy-based meat substitutes, soy cheese, etc.) alone caused many of the symptoms you list: red tongue, slippery pulse, chronic lymph node swellings, skin rashes and eczema. I've had clients like this many times before, and I usually don't give herbs, but do a complete and very thorough diet assessment - I'd want to know each and every single ingredient that is in a weekly diet, so I can spot both potential food sensitivities and possible deficiencies. After diet imbalances are corrected, it is very common for conditions like these to get significantly better, and at that time I'll reassess the TCM patterns and give any herbal formulas that might be appropriate, as the TCM pattern manifestations will not only be alleviated, but will change in quality. ---Roger Wicke PhD Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute website: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/ email: http://www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/ On Jun 17, 2006, at 10:34, wrote: > 3a. Re: Pediatrics case > Posted by: " spy9doc " spy9doc spy9doc > Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:00 pm (PDT) > > Sorry to post this again, but I never saw it on the List, and > received no replies. Surely could use some input. > > -Indian male, 3.7 y.o; very alert and bright, sunny disposition; seems > easily bored > -Parents are young professionals who seem very compliant thusfar, and > avow that they are willing to continue treatment for the " longhaul " > -Breastfed for about 3 months > -All " regular " immunizations > -Only one instance of an ear infection > -Diagnosed early (3 mos) with food allergies, later with environmental > allergies > -Asthma: manifests few Sx and has never had an " asthmatic attack " > -Often has bronchial congestion and gets colds and runny nose > -His eyes have good Shen and there are no collapses of energy except > at night > -There are no clear signs of phlegm or heat or deficiency > -No observable finger vein > -Rash is itchy, skin dry, and the eczema looks like patches of > reptilian skin, primarily on the lower extremities (occasional small > patches on the ventral aspect of the wrist); redder than the > surrounding area, but no visible signs of exudate > -Marked, itchy dandruff > -He is strong with good energy & appetite; BM 1-2x/day; constipated on > rare occasions > -No unusual color on the face; parents moisturize his skin every two > hours with Aquaphor when he is at home; occasional use of > hydrocortisone at home and at daycare > -Pulse: rapid, but not in excess of 110-120, possibly slippery > -Tongue: quite red, neither excessively wet nor dry; deep center crack > that extends to lung area but not the tip > -Cervical chain lymph nodes visible at a distance > -He is generally warm, kicks covers off at night; eczema exacerbated > by the sun > -Plays outside at daycare for an hour per day - asphalt, dirt, grass > -Wears long pants except when sleeping > -Good appetite, vegan diet; diagnosed allergic to wheat, milk, corn, > peanuts, plus a couple of other things; (his mother consumed the > allergic foods during pregnancy); also diagnosed with environmental > allergies > -TV limited to half hour per day > > I have seen this child for four visits to date. His initial diagnosis > was LPF (lingering pathogenic factor) with damp heat; and SP and LU > qi xu. We began with advising the parents to eliminate all known > food allergens, and ways to reduce environmental issues in the home. > Treatment has generally been to needle no more than four points > bilaterally with in/out method - LI 11, LU 5, ST 40, SP 10, ST 36 - > which he tolerates well. We have then used cupping on the large > patches on his legs, which often elicits a yellowish fluid similar to > what one would expect with Si Feng. (I have chosen not to needle Si > Feng to date, not wishing to jeopardize the trust I've built with > him. He loves the cupping game and often participates in it). > > He was markedly worse the week after the first treatment, but I think > that was purely coincidental. Our weather had been damp and humid > for the first time this year. On the third visit, his eczema was > barely visible and the parents very excited and optimistic. His > father occasionally works from home, so the child was not at daycare > that week, and the father could more strictly control his diet and > also moisturize his skin frequently. At that visit I also put him on > flax seed oil for the skin dryness. > > Yesterday was the fourth visit, and he had experienced an > exacerbation of the condition again, not entirely coinciding with his > return to daycare. There were claw marks still visible on his skin > from the scratching two days prior. We asked the parents to avoid > the use of the hydrocortisone cream if at all possible. (Apparently > the people at daycare become frustrated with his scratching and apply > it just to get him to stop.........with the parents' permission) > > My questions are 1)what sort of ointment or topical agent would you > recommend for the intense itching?, 2)what herbal formula(s)? > It would be far easier to use a patent formula, but I can also have > an herbalist compound something for him, given the exact proportions. > I'm not particularly fond of homeopathics, but will try to keep an > open mind about that. > > Appreciate your thoughts on this case. Many thanks for the help! > > Kay King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 , Roger Wicke <rw2 wrote: <<Does the " Indian " ancestry mean American Indian or Asian Indian?>> They are from Northern India and yes, are vegan. I seem to remember that the boy was put on soy milk after breastfeeding was discontinued. We/the parents are currently doing a diet elimination. Since he is allergic to so many things, it is taking time for them to find acceptable substitutes in many products. He is off the known allergens (wheat, corn, milk, peanuts) and off soy as well. My first choice would have been fish oil precisely for the EPAs, but that was not acceptable to a vegan family. I have had one suggestion for evening primrose oil....do you consider that acceptable? Thanks for the link to the flax article. I'll repeat my earlier question. Do you have a suggestion for a topical cream/ointment that will relieve the intense itching while we're sorting this out? Roger, thanks for the detailed reply. Kay King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2006 Report Share Posted June 18, 2006 Kay, I agree with what Roger said. I would suggest using cannibus (hemp) seed oil. Soy as a substitute for breast feeding can be disasterous.......... There are a number of products out there but I have recently been playing with Kukui nut oil and have found it to be very benefitial for the type of skin condition you are talking about. I think highly of Andy Ellis' products and I think Blue Poppy has something that would work, but I don't tend to buy products preferring to make my own. I would also suggest that most northern Indians (as far as I understand) were not vegatarians. As such, it is possible that the child is a first generation vegan/vegi child and could be responding the way many children, in my experience, respond to such a diet. If the parents care enough (of course most do) and are given the appropriate data they should be willing to change their tune regarding the diet. Be patient..... My two cents, Thomas , " spy9doc " <spy9doc wrote: > > , Roger Wicke <rw2@> > wrote: > > <<Does the " Indian " ancestry mean American Indian or Asian Indian? >> > > They are from Northern India and yes, are vegan. I seem to remember > that the boy was put on soy milk after breastfeeding was discontinued. > We/the parents are currently doing a diet elimination. Since he is > allergic to so many things, it is taking time for them to find > acceptable substitutes in many products. He is off the known > allergens (wheat, corn, milk, peanuts) and off soy as well. > > My first choice would have been fish oil precisely for the EPAs, but > that was not acceptable to a vegan family. I have had one suggestion > for evening primrose oil....do you consider that acceptable? Thanks > for the link to the flax article. > > I'll repeat my earlier question. Do you have a suggestion for a > topical cream/ointment that will relieve the intense itching while > we're sorting this out? > > Roger, thanks for the detailed reply. > > Kay King > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2006 Report Share Posted June 18, 2006 Evening primrose oil is high in omega 6 fatty acids. What the patient needs as well is a source of omega 3 fatty acids if EPA is unnacceptable. Off the top of my head, perilla seeds (su zi) are high in omega 3, but Im not sure where it is in the metabolic chain and whether it needs delta-6-desaturase to be converted to more anti- inflammatory prostaglandins. Evening primrose oil doesnt need d-6-d, so is more effective than, say, flaxseed. The reason this is important is because people with atopic eczema often have low D-6-D and so have trouble converting linoleic acid (flaxseed and soy beans) to GLA, the reason that there is often no problem during breastfeeding is because breast milk is high in GLA. Worth a thought, anyway. As for the topical ointment, Im not sure what you have commercially available, but I often make creams and ointments and can send you a recipe for making a basic ointment. Calendula is often very good and all purpose, or you can make ointments with chinese herbs, too. Huang qin is a popular one in China for dermatitis. Metagenics sell a TCM " itch-ease " spray, but I cant remember whats in it, similar sprays are also easy to make, but are often alcohol based. Vegetable glycerin may be an option instead, but I havent tried it. Lea. , " spy9doc " <spy9doc wrote: > > , Roger Wicke <rw2@> > wrote: > > <<Does the " Indian " ancestry mean American Indian or Asian Indian? >> > > They are from Northern India and yes, are vegan. I seem to remember > that the boy was put on soy milk after breastfeeding was discontinued. > We/the parents are currently doing a diet elimination. Since he is > allergic to so many things, it is taking time for them to find > acceptable substitutes in many products. He is off the known > allergens (wheat, corn, milk, peanuts) and off soy as well. > > My first choice would have been fish oil precisely for the EPAs, but > that was not acceptable to a vegan family. I have had one suggestion > for evening primrose oil....do you consider that acceptable? Thanks > for the link to the flax article. > > I'll repeat my earlier question. Do you have a suggestion for a > topical cream/ointment that will relieve the intense itching while > we're sorting this out? > > Roger, thanks for the detailed reply. > > Kay King > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2006 Report Share Posted June 19, 2006 Thomas, You mentioned topical Kukui oil for the child's skin condition. I have seen it used internally for constipation, but that topical use is new to me. Did you mean to say Tamanu oil (Hawaiian name is Kamani oil) ? That works great for skin conditions. - Bill Schoenbart ............................................. Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac. P.O. Box 8099 Santa Cruz, CA 95061 office: 831-335-3165 fax: 831-335-3025 email: plantmed >>>>There are a number of products out there but I have recently been playing with Kukui nut oil and have found it to be very benefitial for the type of skin condition you are talking about. I think highly of Andy Ellis' products and I think Blue Poppy has something that would work, but I don't tend to buy products preferring to make my own. I would also suggest that most northern Indians (as far as I understand) were not vegatarians. As such, it is possible that the child is a first generation vegan/vegi child and could be responding the way many children, in my experience, respond to such a diet. If the parents care enough (of course most do) and are given the appropriate data they should be willing to change their tune regarding the diet. Be patient..... My two cents, Thomas>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 I looked up perilla seeds, and it appears that they are high in ALA (alpha linolenic acid) which means delta-6-desaturease is required to metabolize them into anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. IMO this would make perilla seed oil less effective than EPA from a fish source for atopic patients, but if they are vegan then its worth a go. Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Hi Bill, No, I meant Kukui nut oil. It is a great external application for skin conditions. It stops itching and heals skin quite well. I don't know if it is a traditional usage or not (I don't see it in any of the books I have and Uncle Butch, a local healer, doesn't know of it as a traditional use either) but it is being sold by Aloha Oils and it works great. I have not used Kamani oil, though I have heard it is also quite good. Thomas , " Bill Schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > > Thomas, > > You mentioned topical Kukui oil for the child's skin condition. I have seen > it used internally for constipation, but that topical use is new to me. > Did you mean to say Tamanu oil (Hawaiian name is Kamani oil) ? That works > great for skin conditions. > > - Bill Schoenbart > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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