Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

[Guest guest]

I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

 

#1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the neck the guy has waves of

nausea, with some vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck makes it

worse). I'm assuming some sort of irritation strain or entrapment of the

phrenic/vagus nerves. I do some cranial, and a little acupuncture and everything

is fine for about two days, then it seems to come back full force. I think the

nerve tissue itself is probably irritated, and he seems very keyed up

(flinching at loud noises, etc.) so I was thinking there may be some sort of

sympathetic nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way of treating this

with CM, I've tried heart calming, treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was

wondering if there was any Dx out there that could help make sense of this. He

is a robust guy, pulse is pretty normal except the upper burner pulses are

weaker than the middle and lower (a little wiry overall), tongue is a little

dusky coating is fine.

 

#2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a syndrome with no known

etiology where the patient starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at a

time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once the attack is established. It is

more common with children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one of about

200 adult sufferers, and he's had it for over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs

and is hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically there can be emotional

triggers, but the cycles start morning and evening. At this point he has some

warning that they are coming on and if he takes a hot shower (scalding) while

smoking he can fend off the attack. He has a history of multiple head traumas

(hockey), and presents as fairly wound up, his pulse is on the thin side,

somewhat wiry but not very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and some

yellow at the root which I'm assuming is from bile. Skin is very dry. So far

I've done some cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while descending qi and

anchoring yang (the thought was that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

downward with the shower, but that may be erroneous, as the shower application

seems to be the only way it works, my new thought is that he has to overwhelm

his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating upper back stimulates

attacks, which got me thinking about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

chain.

 

What do people think about the idea of a sympathetic hyperstimulation/irritation

problem (and would errant yang or ministerial fire be a good way of thinking

about that?), and is their an acupuncture or CM way of addressing that?

Obviously, topical applications for herbal meds would be more appropriate...

 

Thanks

 

Par Scott

 

 

[Guest guest]

Par Scott

What are the cranial findings on the first patient?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Par Scott

Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM

Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

 

I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

 

#1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the neck the guy has waves of

nausea, with some vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck makes it

worse). I'm assuming some sort of irritation strain or entrapment of the

phrenic/vagus nerves. I do some cranial, and a little acupuncture and everything

is fine for about two days, then it seems to come back full force. I think the

nerve tissue itself is probably irritated, and he seems very keyed up (flinching

at loud noises, etc.) so I was thinking there may be some sort of sympathetic

nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way of treating this with CM,

I've tried heart calming, treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering if

there was any Dx out there that could help make sense of this. He is a robust

guy, pulse is pretty normal except the upper burner pulses are weaker than the

middle and lower (a little wiry overall), tongue is a little dusky coating is

fine.

 

#2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a syndrome with no known

etiology where the patient starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at a

time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once the attack is established. It is

more common with children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one of about

200 adult sufferers, and he's had it for over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs

and is hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically there can be emotional

triggers, but the cycles start morning and evening. At this point he has some

warning that they are coming on and if he takes a hot shower (scalding) while

smoking he can fend off the attack. He has a history of multiple head traumas

(hockey), and presents as fairly wound up, his pulse is on the thin side,

somewhat wiry but not very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and some

yellow at the root which I'm assuming is from bile. Skin is very dry. So far

I've done some cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while descending qi and

anchoring yang (the thought was that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

downward with the shower, but that may be erroneous, as the shower application

seems to be the only way it works, my new thought is that he has to overwhelm

his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating upper back stimulates

attacks, which got me thinking about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

chain.

 

What do people think about the idea of a sympathetic

hyperstimulation/irritation problem (and would errant yang or ministerial fire

be a good way of thinking about that?), and is their an acupuncture or CM way of

addressing that? Obviously, topical applications for herbal meds would be more

appropriate...

 

Thanks

 

Par Scott

 

[Guest guest]

OA release was difficult, released a lot of heat. Spinal traction also takes

some time to free up, dragging to the right. The rhythm had a fairly short

active-inspire phase and CV4 release seemed to open that quite a bit, other than

that all the bones are slewed to the left, the locus seems to be around the left

temporo-parietal suture, though temporal motion doesn't seem very compromised??

I do what amounts to a Upledger 10 step, and it seems to provide temporary

relief, but obviously there is a deeper lesion if things aren't staying fixed,

right?

 

Thanks

 

Par

 

 

-

Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:06 PM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

 

Par Scott

What are the cranial findings on the first patient?

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Par Scott

Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM

Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

 

#1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the neck the guy has waves of

nausea, with some vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck makes it

worse). I'm assuming some sort of irritation strain or entrapment of the

phrenic/vagus nerves. I do some cranial, and a little acupuncture and everything

is fine for about two days, then it seems to come back full force. I think the

nerve tissue itself is probably irritated, and he seems very keyed up (flinching

at loud noises, etc.) so I was thinking there may be some sort of sympathetic

nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way of treating this with CM,

I've tried heart calming, treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering if

there was any Dx out there that could help make sense of this. He is a robust

guy, pulse is pretty normal except the upper burner pulses are weaker than the

middle and lower (a little wiry overall), tongue is a little dusky coating is

fine.

 

#2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a syndrome with no known

etiology where the patient starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at a

time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once the attack is established. It is

more common with children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one of about

200 adult sufferers, and he's had it for over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs

and is hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically there can be emotional

triggers, but the cycles start morning and evening. At this point he has some

warning that they are coming on and if he takes a hot shower (scalding) while

smoking he can fend off the attack. He has a history of multiple head traumas

(hockey), and presents as fairly wound up, his pulse is on the thin side,

somewhat wiry but not very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and some

yellow at the root which I'm assuming is from bile. Skin is very dry. So far

I've done some cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while descending qi and

anchoring yang (the thought was that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

downward with the shower, but that may be erroneous, as the shower application

seems to be the only way it works, my new thought is that he has to overwhelm

his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating upper back stimulates

attacks, which got me thinking about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

chain.

 

What do people think about the idea of a sympathetic

hyperstimulation/irritation problem (and would errant yang or ministerial fire

be a good way of thinking about that?), and is their an acupuncture or CM way of

addressing that? Obviously, topical applications for herbal meds would be more

appropriate...

 

Thanks

 

Par Scott

 

[Guest guest]

You need to make a Dx. I do not think doing the 10 step is sufficient. First you

must determine if the cranial system is the most restricted system. If not you

are just chasing you tail. If it is you need to know were the lesion is so that

you can treat it specifically. You may also want to conceder an interosseous

lesion of the temporal or parietal bones if that is were you feel the pull.

In MVAs you often find a flexed sacrum or other nonphysiological pelvic lesion

that must be addressed first.

Hope this helps a little

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Par Scott

Saturday, June 17, 2006 2:55 PM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

 

OA release was difficult, released a lot of heat. Spinal traction also takes

some time to free up, dragging to the right. The rhythm had a fairly short

active-inspire phase and CV4 release seemed to open that quite a bit, other than

that all the bones are slewed to the left, the locus seems to be around the left

temporo-parietal suture, though temporal motion doesn't seem very compromised??

I do what amounts to a Upledger 10 step, and it seems to provide temporary

relief, but obviously there is a deeper lesion if things aren't staying fixed,

right?

 

Thanks

 

Par

 

-

Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:06 PM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

Par Scott

What are the cranial findings on the first patient?

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Par Scott

Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM

Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

 

#1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the neck the guy has waves of

nausea, with some vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck makes it

worse). I'm assuming some sort of irritation strain or entrapment of the

phrenic/vagus nerves. I do some cranial, and a little acupuncture and everything

is fine for about two days, then it seems to come back full force. I think the

nerve tissue itself is probably irritated, and he seems very keyed up (flinching

at loud noises, etc.) so I was thinking there may be some sort of sympathetic

nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way of treating this with CM,

I've tried heart calming, treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering if

there was any Dx out there that could help make sense of this. He is a robust

guy, pulse is pretty normal except the upper burner pulses are weaker than the

middle and lower (a little wiry overall), tongue is a little dusky coating is

fine.

 

#2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a syndrome with no known

etiology where the patient starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at a

time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once the attack is established. It is

more common with children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one of about

200 adult sufferers, and he's had it for over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs

and is hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically there can be emotional

triggers, but the cycles start morning and evening. At this point he has some

warning that they are coming on and if he takes a hot shower (scalding) while

smoking he can fend off the attack. He has a history of multiple head traumas

(hockey), and presents as fairly wound up, his pulse is on the thin side,

somewhat wiry but not very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and some

yellow at the root which I'm assuming is from bile. Skin is very dry. So far

I've done some cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while descending qi and

anchoring yang (the thought was that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

downward with the shower, but that may be erroneous, as the shower application

seems to be the only way it works, my new thought is that he has to overwhelm

his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating upper back stimulates

attacks, which got me thinking about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

chain.

 

What do people think about the idea of a sympathetic

hyperstimulation/irritation problem (and would errant yang or ministerial fire

be a good way of thinking about that?), and is their an acupuncture or CM way of

addressing that? Obviously, topical applications for herbal meds would be more

appropriate...

 

Thanks

 

Par Scott

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you

 

Par

-

Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:38 PM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

 

You need to make a Dx. I do not think doing the 10 step is sufficient. First

you must determine if the cranial system is the most restricted system. If not

you are just chasing you tail. If it is you need to know were the lesion is so

that you can treat it specifically. You may also want to conceder an

interosseous lesion of the temporal or parietal bones if that is were you feel

the pull.

In MVAs you often find a flexed sacrum or other nonphysiological pelvic lesion

that must be addressed first.

Hope this helps a little

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Par Scott

Saturday, June 17, 2006 2:55 PM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

OA release was difficult, released a lot of heat. Spinal traction also takes

some time to free up, dragging to the right. The rhythm had a fairly short

active-inspire phase and CV4 release seemed to open that quite a bit, other than

that all the bones are slewed to the left, the locus seems to be around the left

temporo-parietal suture, though temporal motion doesn't seem very compromised??

I do what amounts to a Upledger 10 step, and it seems to provide temporary

relief, but obviously there is a deeper lesion if things aren't staying fixed,

right?

 

Thanks

 

Par

 

-

Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:06 PM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

Par Scott

What are the cranial findings on the first patient?

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

Par Scott

Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM

Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

 

#1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the neck the guy has waves of

nausea, with some vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck makes it

worse). I'm assuming some sort of irritation strain or entrapment of the

phrenic/vagus nerves. I do some cranial, and a little acupuncture and everything

is fine for about two days, then it seems to come back full force. I think the

nerve tissue itself is probably irritated, and he seems very keyed up (flinching

at loud noises, etc.) so I was thinking there may be some sort of sympathetic

nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way of treating this with CM,

I've tried heart calming, treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering if

there was any Dx out there that could help make sense of this. He is a robust

guy, pulse is pretty normal except the upper burner pulses are weaker than the

middle and lower (a little wiry overall), tongue is a little dusky coating is

fine.

 

#2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a syndrome with no known

etiology where the patient starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at a

time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once the attack is established. It is

more common with children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one of about

200 adult sufferers, and he's had it for over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs

and is hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically there can be emotional

triggers, but the cycles start morning and evening. At this point he has some

warning that they are coming on and if he takes a hot shower (scalding) while

smoking he can fend off the attack. He has a history of multiple head traumas

(hockey), and presents as fairly wound up, his pulse is on the thin side,

somewhat wiry but not very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and some

yellow at the root which I'm assuming is from bile. Skin is very dry. So far

I've done some cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while descending qi and

anchoring yang (the thought was that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

downward with the shower, but that may be erroneous, as the shower application

seems to be the only way it works, my new thought is that he has to overwhelm

his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating upper back stimulates

attacks, which got me thinking about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

chain.

 

What do people think about the idea of a sympathetic

hyperstimulation/irritation problem (and would errant yang or ministerial fire

be a good way of thinking about that?), and is their an acupuncture or CM way of

addressing that? Obviously, topical applications for herbal meds would be more

appropriate...

 

Thanks

 

Par Scott

 

[Guest guest]

What has worked with the acupuncture even if for a few days? Has any acupuncture

not

worked? Does patient number 2 vomit at night while trying to sleep? Any

difference in

postitionality? I assume food is not a triggering factor. Especially in patient

number 1 what

is the quality of the vomitus?

What are the warning signs of an attack?

Diagnosis is simply rebellious qi... yeah, duh, they are vomiting.

 

My knee jerk reaction is to go for UB 1 to try to calm the phrenic. I've seen it

work with

chronic hiccups but with strong acupressure that took 30 minutes. Auricular?

Sympathetic

and others?

Kind of silly to throw stuff out with such serious cases but you asked...

doug

 

 

, " Par Scott " <parufus wrote:

 

>

> I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

>

> #1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the neck the guy has waves of

nausea,

with some vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck makes it worse).

I'm assuming

some sort of irritation strain or entrapment of the phrenic/vagus nerves. I do

some cranial,

and a little acupuncture and everything is fine for about two days, then it

seems to come

back full force. I think the nerve tissue itself is probably irritated, and he

seems very keyed

up (flinching at loud noises, etc.) so I was thinking there may be some sort of

sympathetic

nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way of treating this with CM,

I've tried heart

calming, treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering if there was any Dx out

there

that could help make sense of this. He is a robust guy, pulse is pretty normal

except the

upper burner pulses are weaker than the middle and lower (a little wiry

overall), tongue is

a little dusky coating is fine.

>

> #2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a syndrome with no known

etiology

where the patient starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at a time,

and will

vomit every 10-15 minutes once the attack is established. It is more common with

children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one of about 200 adult

sufferers, and he's

had it for over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs and is hospitalized to

rehydrate 4-5 x

year. Typically there can be emotional triggers, but the cycles start morning

and evening.

At this point he has some warning that they are coming on and if he takes a hot

shower

(scalding) while smoking he can fend off the attack. He has a history of

multiple head

traumas (hockey), and presents as fairly wound up, his pulse is on the thin

side, somewhat

wiry but not very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and some yellow at the

root

which I'm assuming is from bile. Skin is very dry. So far I've done some cranial

and tried to

build blood and qi, while descending qi and anchoring yang (the thought was that

the heat

might be guiding errant yang back downward with the shower, but that may be

erroneous,

as the shower application seems to be the only way it works, my new thought is

that he

has to overwhelm his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating upper back

stimulates attacks, which got me thinking about mechanical irritation of the

sympathetic

chain.

>

> What do people think about the idea of a sympathetic

hyperstimulation/irritation

problem (and would errant yang or ministerial fire be a good way of thinking

about that?),

and is their an acupuncture or CM way of addressing that? Obviously, topical

applications

for herbal meds would be more appropriate...

>

> Thanks

>

> Par Scott

>

[Guest guest]

you can also try to bleed the posterior hair line on GV channel a Tung style

treatment for vomiting

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:11 PM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

 

What has worked with the acupuncture even if for a few days? Has any

acupuncture not

worked? Does patient number 2 vomit at night while trying to sleep? Any

difference in

postitionality? I assume food is not a triggering factor. Especially in

patient number 1 what

is the quality of the vomitus?

What are the warning signs of an attack?

Diagnosis is simply rebellious qi... yeah, duh, they are vomiting.

 

My knee jerk reaction is to go for UB 1 to try to calm the phrenic. I've seen

it work with

chronic hiccups but with strong acupressure that took 30 minutes. Auricular?

Sympathetic

and others?

Kind of silly to throw stuff out with such serious cases but you asked...

doug

 

, " Par Scott " <parufus wrote:

 

>

> I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

>

> #1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the neck the guy has waves of

nausea,

with some vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck makes it worse).

I'm assuming

some sort of irritation strain or entrapment of the phrenic/vagus nerves. I do

some cranial,

and a little acupuncture and everything is fine for about two days, then it

seems to come

back full force. I think the nerve tissue itself is probably irritated, and he

seems very keyed

up (flinching at loud noises, etc.) so I was thinking there may be some sort

of sympathetic

nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way of treating this with CM,

I've tried heart

calming, treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering if there was any Dx

out there

that could help make sense of this. He is a robust guy, pulse is pretty normal

except the

upper burner pulses are weaker than the middle and lower (a little wiry

overall), tongue is

a little dusky coating is fine.

>

> #2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a syndrome with no known

etiology

where the patient starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at a time,

and will

vomit every 10-15 minutes once the attack is established. It is more common

with

children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one of about 200 adult

sufferers, and he's

had it for over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs and is hospitalized to

rehydrate 4-5 x

year. Typically there can be emotional triggers, but the cycles start morning

and evening.

At this point he has some warning that they are coming on and if he takes a

hot shower

(scalding) while smoking he can fend off the attack. He has a history of

multiple head

traumas (hockey), and presents as fairly wound up, his pulse is on the thin

side, somewhat

wiry but not very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and some yellow at

the root

which I'm assuming is from bile. Skin is very dry. So far I've done some

cranial and tried to

build blood and qi, while descending qi and anchoring yang (the thought was

that the heat

might be guiding errant yang back downward with the shower, but that may be

erroneous,

as the shower application seems to be the only way it works, my new thought is

that he

has to overwhelm his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating upper

back

stimulates attacks, which got me thinking about mechanical irritation of the

sympathetic

chain.

>

> What do people think about the idea of a sympathetic

hyperstimulation/irritation

problem (and would errant yang or ministerial fire be a good way of thinking

about that?),

and is their an acupuncture or CM way of addressing that? Obviously, topical

applications

for herbal meds would be more appropriate...

>

> Thanks

>

> Par Scott

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Par,

 

It would seem to me that the occipital cranial base is

probably quite jammed and stuck. Consider going about

treating it indirectly, perhaps starting at the

thoracic inlet, going through the scalenes, the hyoid

and the " avenue of expression " , the tmj, sphenoid and

the hard palate complex, the temporals from the sides,

the parietals from the top,and the sacrum, and only

then going back to the occipital-cranial base. I find

that when I face stuck places, I defer to and follow

the guidance of the significance indicator, and needle

distally simultaneously. What follows is usually some

pretty dramatic releases.

 

Much success,

 

Yehuda

 

--- Par Scott <parufus wrote:

 

> OA release was difficult, released a lot of heat.

> Spinal traction also takes some time to free up,

> dragging to the right. The rhythm had a fairly short

> active-inspire phase and CV4 release seemed to open

> that quite a bit, other than that all the bones are

> slewed to the left, the locus seems to be around the

> left temporo-parietal suture, though temporal motion

> doesn't seem very compromised?? I do what amounts to

> a Upledger 10 step, and it seems to provide

> temporary relief, but obviously there is a deeper

> lesion if things aren't staying fixed, right?

>

> Thanks

>

> Par

>

>

> -

>

>

> Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:06 PM

> Re: Nausea cases, irritation of

> sympathetic chain

>

>

> Par Scott

> What are the cranial findings on the first

> patient?

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> Par Scott

>

> Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM

> Nausea cases, irritation of

> sympathetic chain

>

> I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

>

> #1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the

> neck the guy has waves of nausea, with some

> vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck

> makes it worse). I'm assuming some sort of

> irritation strain or entrapment of the phrenic/vagus

> nerves. I do some cranial, and a little acupuncture

> and everything is fine for about two days, then it

> seems to come back full force. I think the nerve

> tissue itself is probably irritated, and he seems

> very keyed up (flinching at loud noises, etc.) so I

> was thinking there may be some sort of sympathetic

> nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way

> of treating this with CM, I've tried heart calming,

> treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering if

> there was any Dx out there that could help make

> sense of this. He is a robust guy, pulse is pretty

> normal except the upper burner pulses are weaker

> than the middle and lower (a little wiry overall),

> tongue is a little dusky coating is fine.

>

> #2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a

> syndrome with no known etiology where the patient

> starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at

> a time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once the

> attack is established. It is more common with

> children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one

> of about 200 adult sufferers, and he's had it for

> over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs and is

> hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically

> there can be emotional triggers, but the cycles

> start morning and evening. At this point he has some

> warning that they are coming on and if he takes a

> hot shower (scalding) while smoking he can fend off

> the attack. He has a history of multiple head

> traumas (hockey), and presents as fairly wound up,

> his pulse is on the thin side, somewhat wiry but not

> very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and

> some yellow at the root which I'm assuming is from

> bile. Skin is very dry. So far I've done some

> cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while

> descending qi and anchoring yang (the thought was

> that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

> downward with the shower, but that may be erroneous,

> as the shower application seems to be the only way

> it works, my new thought is that he has to overwhelm

> his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating

> upper back stimulates attacks, which got me thinking

> about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

> chain.

>

> What do people think about the idea of a

> sympathetic hyperstimulation/irritation problem (and

> would errant yang or ministerial fire be a good way

> of thinking about that?), and is their an

> acupuncture or CM way of addressing that? Obviously,

> topical applications for herbal meds would be more

> appropriate...

>

> Thanks

>

> Par Scott

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

that is a kind of a shot gun approach and takes a lot of time. If Par can Dx the

problem he would save a lot of time. Par do you know how to screen a patient, ie

first find out which system or area is the most restricted? this would save you

a lot of time and grief. If you think the cranium is it try to screen all the

bones of the head to see which movement is the most restricted, treat that

suture. Has i said with trauma you often get an osseous lesion, if you find one

treat it with a functional (indirect) technique or sometimes with a fluid

approach. By the way what exactly occurred with the MVA? knowing may give some

clues

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Sunday, June 18, 2006 1:00 AM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

 

Hi Par,

 

It would seem to me that the occipital cranial base is

probably quite jammed and stuck. Consider going about

treating it indirectly, perhaps starting at the

thoracic inlet, going through the scalenes, the hyoid

and the " avenue of expression " , the tmj, sphenoid and

the hard palate complex, the temporals from the sides,

the parietals from the top,and the sacrum, and only

then going back to the occipital-cranial base. I find

that when I face stuck places, I defer to and follow

the guidance of the significance indicator, and needle

distally simultaneously. What follows is usually some

pretty dramatic releases.

 

Much success,

 

Yehuda

 

--- Par Scott <parufus wrote:

 

> OA release was difficult, released a lot of heat.

> Spinal traction also takes some time to free up,

> dragging to the right. The rhythm had a fairly short

> active-inspire phase and CV4 release seemed to open

> that quite a bit, other than that all the bones are

> slewed to the left, the locus seems to be around the

> left temporo-parietal suture, though temporal motion

> doesn't seem very compromised?? I do what amounts to

> a Upledger 10 step, and it seems to provide

> temporary relief, but obviously there is a deeper

> lesion if things aren't staying fixed, right?

>

> Thanks

>

> Par

>

>

> -

>

>

> Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:06 PM

> Re: Nausea cases, irritation of

> sympathetic chain

>

>

> Par Scott

> What are the cranial findings on the first

> patient?

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> Par Scott

>

> Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM

> Nausea cases, irritation of

> sympathetic chain

>

> I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

>

> #1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the

> neck the guy has waves of nausea, with some

> vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck

> makes it worse). I'm assuming some sort of

> irritation strain or entrapment of the phrenic/vagus

> nerves. I do some cranial, and a little acupuncture

> and everything is fine for about two days, then it

> seems to come back full force. I think the nerve

> tissue itself is probably irritated, and he seems

> very keyed up (flinching at loud noises, etc.) so I

> was thinking there may be some sort of sympathetic

> nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a way

> of treating this with CM, I've tried heart calming,

> treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering if

> there was any Dx out there that could help make

> sense of this. He is a robust guy, pulse is pretty

> normal except the upper burner pulses are weaker

> than the middle and lower (a little wiry overall),

> tongue is a little dusky coating is fine.

>

> #2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a

> syndrome with no known etiology where the patient

> starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks at

> a time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once the

> attack is established. It is more common with

> children and they tend to grow out of it, he is one

> of about 200 adult sufferers, and he's had it for

> over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs and is

> hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically

> there can be emotional triggers, but the cycles

> start morning and evening. At this point he has some

> warning that they are coming on and if he takes a

> hot shower (scalding) while smoking he can fend off

> the attack. He has a history of multiple head

> traumas (hockey), and presents as fairly wound up,

> his pulse is on the thin side, somewhat wiry but not

> very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and

> some yellow at the root which I'm assuming is from

> bile. Skin is very dry. So far I've done some

> cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while

> descending qi and anchoring yang (the thought was

> that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

> downward with the shower, but that may be erroneous,

> as the shower application seems to be the only way

> it works, my new thought is that he has to overwhelm

> his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro treating

> upper back stimulates attacks, which got me thinking

> about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

> chain.

>

> What do people think about the idea of a

> sympathetic hyperstimulation/irritation problem (and

> would errant yang or ministerial fire be a good way

> of thinking about that?), and is their an

> acupuncture or CM way of addressing that? Obviously,

> topical applications for herbal meds would be more

> appropriate...

>

> Thanks

>

> Par Scott

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Par and Alon,

 

I view this approach differently: I find that with

trauma, often there is a palpatory heaviness or

thickness, and that the restriction is often fascial

and not necessarily osseous, from a combination of

adhesions and calcified lymph, resulting from the

ongoing, and self-perpetuating inflammatory process.

Remember, also, that your approach and training

represents cranial-osteopathy, whereas Par and I are

Upledger Cranio-Sacral trained. You and I have

dialogued about this in the past. The Upledger

approach is much less pro-active, and involves a

greater palpatory sensitivity: proprioceptorially

" listening " to the guidance of the patient's inner

physician. There is much scholarly documentation to

support the efficacy of this approach. I am merely

suggesting the approach which " resonated " and worked

well with me, in like cases, and am not suggesting it

as the only approach. Just want it understood that we

are not speaking of the same therapeutic modality.

 

Sincererly,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

 

--- <alonmarcus wrote:

 

> Yehuda

> that is a kind of a shot gun approach and takes a

> lot of time. If Par can Dx the problem he would save

> a lot of time. Par do you know how to screen a

> patient, ie first find out which system or area is

> the most restricted? this would save you a lot of

> time and grief. If you think the cranium is it try

> to screen all the bones of the head to see which

> movement is the most restricted, treat that suture.

> Has i said with trauma you often get an osseous

> lesion, if you find one treat it with a functional

> (indirect) technique or sometimes with a fluid

> approach. By the way what exactly occurred with the

> MVA? knowing may give some clues

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> yehuda frischman

>

> Sunday, June 18, 2006 1:00 AM

> Re: Nausea cases, irritation of

> sympathetic chain

>

>

> Hi Par,

>

> It would seem to me that the occipital cranial

> base is

> probably quite jammed and stuck. Consider going

> about

> treating it indirectly, perhaps starting at the

> thoracic inlet, going through the scalenes, the

> hyoid

> and the " avenue of expression " , the tmj, sphenoid

> and

> the hard palate complex, the temporals from the

> sides,

> the parietals from the top,and the sacrum, and

> only

> then going back to the occipital-cranial base. I

> find

> that when I face stuck places, I defer to and

> follow

> the guidance of the significance indicator, and

> needle

> distally simultaneously. What follows is usually

> some

> pretty dramatic releases.

>

> Much success,

>

> Yehuda

>

> --- Par Scott <parufus wrote:

>

> > OA release was difficult, released a lot of

> heat.

> > Spinal traction also takes some time to free up,

> > dragging to the right. The rhythm had a fairly

> short

> > active-inspire phase and CV4 release seemed to

> open

> > that quite a bit, other than that all the bones

> are

> > slewed to the left, the locus seems to be around

> the

> > left temporo-parietal suture, though temporal

> motion

> > doesn't seem very compromised?? I do what

> amounts to

> > a Upledger 10 step, and it seems to provide

> > temporary relief, but obviously there is a

> deeper

> > lesion if things aren't staying fixed, right?

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> > Par

> >

> >

> > -

> >

> >

> > Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:06 PM

> > Re: Nausea cases, irritation of

> > sympathetic chain

> >

> >

> > Par Scott

> > What are the cranial findings on the first

> > patient?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

> > -

> > Par Scott

> >

> > Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM

> > Nausea cases, irritation of

> > sympathetic chain

> >

> > I have two nausea cases that are driving me

> crazy.

> >

> > #1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the

> > neck the guy has waves of nausea, with some

> > vomiting, position related (retraction of the

> neck

> > makes it worse). I'm assuming some sort of

> > irritation strain or entrapment of the

> phrenic/vagus

> > nerves. I do some cranial, and a little

> acupuncture

> > and everything is fine for about two days, then

> it

> > seems to come back full force. I think the nerve

> > tissue itself is probably irritated, and he

> seems

> > very keyed up (flinching at loud noises, etc.)

> so I

> > was thinking there may be some sort of

> sympathetic

> > nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a

> way

> > of treating this with CM, I've tried heart

> calming,

> > treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering

> if

> > there was any Dx out there that could help make

> > sense of this. He is a robust guy, pulse is

> pretty

> > normal except the upper burner pulses are weaker

> > than the middle and lower (a little wiry

> overall),

> > tongue is a little dusky coating is fine.

> >

> > #2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome,

> a

> > syndrome with no known etiology where the

> patient

> > starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks

> at

> > a time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once

> the

> > attack is established. It is more common with

> > children and they tend to grow out of it, he is

> one

> > of about 200 adult sufferers, and he's had it

> for

> > over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs and is

> > hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically

> > there can be emotional triggers, but the cycles

> > start morning and evening. At this point he has

> some

> > warning that they are coming on and if he takes

> a

> > hot shower (scalding) while smoking he can fend

> off

> > the attack. He has a history of multiple head

> > traumas (hockey), and presents as fairly wound

> up,

> > his pulse is on the thin side, somewhat wiry but

> not

> > very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and

> > some yellow at the root which I'm assuming is

> from

> > bile. Skin is very dry. So far I've done some

> > cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while

> > descending qi and anchoring yang (the thought

> was

> > that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

> > downward with the shower, but that may be

> erroneous,

> > as the shower application seems to be the only

> way

> > it works, my new thought is that he has to

> overwhelm

> > his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro

> treating

> > upper back stimulates attacks, which got me

> thinking

> > about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

> > chain.

> >

> > What do people think about the idea of a

> > sympathetic hyperstimulation/irritation problem

> (and

> > would errant yang or ministerial fire be a good

> way

> > of thinking about that?), and is their an

> > acupuncture or CM way of addressing that?

> Obviously,

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

I understand what you are saying but i would not use these words: " and involves

a greater palpatory sensitivity: proprioceptorially " listening " " . Most of the

osteopathic approaches to cranial depend on highly developed palpatory

sensitivity and propeioceptorially listening, especially the functional

approaches. I think the biggest difference is that in good osteopathy, cranial

is only one system and like all osteopathic approaches treatment is done after

specific Dx (but as always easier said than done). From the exposure i have had

to Upledger it takes a lot of time to make changes. I think that is because

there is often little time spent on specific Dx. By the way what is the SER and

TJM stand for?

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Sunday, June 18, 2006 10:29 AM

Re: Nausea cases, irritation of sympathetic chain

 

 

Dear Par and Alon,

 

I view this approach differently: I find that with

trauma, often there is a palpatory heaviness or

thickness, and that the restriction is often fascial

and not necessarily osseous, from a combination of

adhesions and calcified lymph, resulting from the

ongoing, and self-perpetuating inflammatory process.

Remember, also, that your approach and training

represents cranial-osteopathy, whereas Par and I are

Upledger Cranio-Sacral trained. You and I have

dialogued about this in the past. The Upledger

approach is much less pro-active, and involves a

greater palpatory sensitivity: proprioceptorially

" listening " to the guidance of the patient's inner

physician. There is much scholarly documentation to

support the efficacy of this approach. I am merely

suggesting the approach which " resonated " and worked

well with me, in like cases, and am not suggesting it

as the only approach. Just want it understood that we

are not speaking of the same therapeutic modality.

 

Sincererly,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

 

--- <alonmarcus wrote:

 

> Yehuda

> that is a kind of a shot gun approach and takes a

> lot of time. If Par can Dx the problem he would save

> a lot of time. Par do you know how to screen a

> patient, ie first find out which system or area is

> the most restricted? this would save you a lot of

> time and grief. If you think the cranium is it try

> to screen all the bones of the head to see which

> movement is the most restricted, treat that suture.

> Has i said with trauma you often get an osseous

> lesion, if you find one treat it with a functional

> (indirect) technique or sometimes with a fluid

> approach. By the way what exactly occurred with the

> MVA? knowing may give some clues

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> yehuda frischman

>

> Sunday, June 18, 2006 1:00 AM

> Re: Nausea cases, irritation of

> sympathetic chain

>

>

> Hi Par,

>

> It would seem to me that the occipital cranial

> base is

> probably quite jammed and stuck. Consider going

> about

> treating it indirectly, perhaps starting at the

> thoracic inlet, going through the scalenes, the

> hyoid

> and the " avenue of expression " , the tmj, sphenoid

> and

> the hard palate complex, the temporals from the

> sides,

> the parietals from the top,and the sacrum, and

> only

> then going back to the occipital-cranial base. I

> find

> that when I face stuck places, I defer to and

> follow

> the guidance of the significance indicator, and

> needle

> distally simultaneously. What follows is usually

> some

> pretty dramatic releases.

>

> Much success,

>

> Yehuda

>

> --- Par Scott <parufus wrote:

>

> > OA release was difficult, released a lot of

> heat.

> > Spinal traction also takes some time to free up,

> > dragging to the right. The rhythm had a fairly

> short

> > active-inspire phase and CV4 release seemed to

> open

> > that quite a bit, other than that all the bones

> are

> > slewed to the left, the locus seems to be around

> the

> > left temporo-parietal suture, though temporal

> motion

> > doesn't seem very compromised?? I do what

> amounts to

> > a Upledger 10 step, and it seems to provide

> > temporary relief, but obviously there is a

> deeper

> > lesion if things aren't staying fixed, right?

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> > Par

> >

> >

> > -

> >

> >

> > Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:06 PM

> > Re: Nausea cases, irritation of

> > sympathetic chain

> >

> >

> > Par Scott

> > What are the cranial findings on the first

> > patient?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Oakland, CA 94609

> >

> >

> > -

> > Par Scott

> >

> > Saturday, June 17, 2006 6:30 AM

> > Nausea cases, irritation of

> > sympathetic chain

> >

> > I have two nausea cases that are driving me

> crazy.

> >

> > #1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the

> > neck the guy has waves of nausea, with some

> > vomiting, position related (retraction of the

> neck

> > makes it worse). I'm assuming some sort of

> > irritation strain or entrapment of the

> phrenic/vagus

> > nerves. I do some cranial, and a little

> acupuncture

> > and everything is fine for about two days, then

> it

> > seems to come back full force. I think the nerve

> > tissue itself is probably irritated, and he

> seems

> > very keyed up (flinching at loud noises, etc.)

> so I

> > was thinking there may be some sort of

> sympathetic

> > nervous system overwhelm as well... is there a

> way

> > of treating this with CM, I've tried heart

> calming,

> > treating GB and diaphragm pts, I was wondering

> if

> > there was any Dx out there that could help make

> > sense of this. He is a robust guy, pulse is

> pretty

> > normal except the upper burner pulses are weaker

> > than the middle and lower (a little wiry

> overall),

> > tongue is a little dusky coating is fine.

> >

> > #2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome,

> a

> > syndrome with no known etiology where the

> patient

> > starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks

> at

> > a time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once

> the

> > attack is established. It is more common with

> > children and they tend to grow out of it, he is

> one

> > of about 200 adult sufferers, and he's had it

> for

> > over ten years, has lost about 100 lbs and is

> > hospitalized to rehydrate 4-5 x year. Typically

> > there can be emotional triggers, but the cycles

> > start morning and evening. At this point he has

> some

> > warning that they are coming on and if he takes

> a

> > hot shower (scalding) while smoking he can fend

> off

> > the attack. He has a history of multiple head

> > traumas (hockey), and presents as fairly wound

> up,

> > his pulse is on the thin side, somewhat wiry but

> not

> > very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and

> > some yellow at the root which I'm assuming is

> from

> > bile. Skin is very dry. So far I've done some

> > cranial and tried to build blood and qi, while

> > descending qi and anchoring yang (the thought

> was

> > that the heat might be guiding errant yang back

> > downward with the shower, but that may be

> erroneous,

> > as the shower application seems to be the only

> way

> > it works, my new thought is that he has to

> overwhelm

> > his system with sensory stimulation). Chiro

> treating

> > upper back stimulates attacks, which got me

> thinking

> > about mechanical irritation of the sympathetic

> > chain.

> >

> > What do people think about the idea of a

> > sympathetic hyperstimulation/irritation problem

> (and

> > would errant yang or ministerial fire be a good

> way

> > of thinking about that?), and is their an

> > acupuncture or CM way of addressing that?

> Obviously,

>

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On 6/17/06, Par Scott <parufus wrote:

>

> I have two nausea cases that are driving me crazy.

>

> #1 Post MVA with some soft tissue damage in the neck the guy has waves of

> nausea, with some vomiting, position related (retraction of the neck makes

> it worse).

>

 

I had a patient who had a TIA, a mini-stroke. Small amount of necrosis

visualized in diagnostic imaging. She was dizzy and nauseous, and had a

thick white tongue coating and so I treated her for wind-phlegm. Her tongue

coating soon improved, her nausea subsided and although she was weak on one

side of her body, she left the hospital soon after. I gave her scalp

acupuncture five times a week for a month and by the end of that month she

was back up to her normal activities.

 

#2 Has a diagnosis of Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome, a syndrome with no known

> etiology where the patient starts to have constant nausea for days to weeks

> at a time, and will vomit every 10-15 minutes once the attack is

> established.

>

 

I had a patient with some sort of neurological anomaly in his brain that

gave rise to frequent vomiting for no apparent reason. He had been told by

his neurologist that it was a form of epilepsy that he had. He presented

with a swollen tongue and a slippery pulse. So I gave him an er chen tang

modified. He reported that, while the problem never went away 100%, the

formula proved be the most effective intervention up until that point in his

life. At that point, this condition had been going on for close to 25 years.

 

 

> Typically there can be emotional triggers, [...] his pulse is on the thin

> side, somewhat wiry but not very strong. Tongue is pale with a thin body and

> some yellow at the root which I'm assuming is from bile. Skin is very dry.

>

 

 

 

 

Shu Gan Wan can regulates the Liver and Stomach while nourishing the Liver

Blood. I'm guessing that this is the tree up which you should be barking .

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Yehuda,

 

I am curious what you mean by significance indicator - can you explain

more about this term?

 

thanks,

Molly Beverage

 

 

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

 

> I find that when I face stuck places, I defer to and follow

> the guidance of the significance indicator, and needle

> distally simultaneously.