OT: Immigration

[Guest guest]

Butch wrote:

I am slowly developing an opinion that the Number One problem in US

politics is Extreme Polarization.

 

I so wholeheartedly agree!

Not only in the USA.

Alas, the district system with winner-take-the

whole riding encourages it.

Proportional representation has its own set of

problems, but it does encourage the building

of coalitions and bridges.

 

Most people on this planet want pretty much

the same things from life.

Food, clothing, shelter, a bit of love, a chance

to raise their children in peace, and a chance

to develop their own unique gifts if they're

lucky.

They have different ideas about the best way

to go about it.

 

If we could all just start with what we have

in common instead of what divides us we might

get somewhere.

 

Europe is facing similar problems, with desperate

people from Africa swamping small islands like

Lampedusa near Sicily and the Canaries.

You can't blame them for trying, and you can't

blame the Europeans for wanting to stem the

tide.

 

Quite frankly, I have NO idea how to solve

the problem.

 

Ien in the Kootenays

***********************

Good planets are hard to find.

Get paid to help this one.

http://theforestpath.com

***********************

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

they lose a heckuva lot

of credibility when they start hammering on the Democrats .. just as this

writer does when he hammers the Republicans.

 

[Dave:] I just can’t escape the thought that the real solution to this as to

so many other issues, is spiritual in nature and neither strictly legal nor

economic.

 

I'll give 3 to 1 odds that in November Democrats will take control of

the US Congress .. not because folks will vote for them .. but because

folks will vote against the Republicans. I'll give 4 to 1 odds that we

are going to see VERY FEW changes made in the USA

 

[Dave:] Amen, brother!

 

The fact is .. we have never really had an open border with Mexico .. we

have had a closed border that could NOT be adequately policed.

 

[Dave:] True.  We have had, not an open border, but a porous one.  It’s been

that way for a long time.  Pancho Villa used it to his advantage and

infuriated both governments.  It’s not going to change anytime soon.

 

Ø  in the American media, Illegal Employers are almost never

> mentioned.

 

True it is .. and this is not really partisan politics .. politicians on

both sides avoid this like a hot tater cause they depend greatly on the

support of big business .. and their constituents depend on it too.

 

[Dave:] And there you have it.  The real problem is hypocrisy, theirs and

ours.  We need them, and they need us.  But we don’t want them living next

door, and they don’t like us much, either.  There are some problems that

government by its nature is not equipped to deal with.  They can pass laws

and compromise all they want, but until the corrupt fellows are turned out

to the license plate factories and people of good faith sit down together

like the brothers that we all are and really squish the fish together, these

problems will be with us.  Yes, I know how idealistic and simplistic that

sounds.  I also know it’s the only thing that will work.

 

... but there are no magic pills

to take to make the problem go away. Still .. there is a need to

address the problem.

 

[Dave:] See above.

 

Butch .. who is FED UP with Politics and Politicians!

 

 

 

[Dave:] Oh, Gawd yes!

 

 

 

 

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Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.5/451 - Release 9/19/2006

 

 

 

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Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.6/453 - Release 9/20/2006

[Guest guest]

Hi Ien,

 

> I don't have an answer either, but I did read some

> interesting observations in an article by Thom

> Hartmann.

 

The problem with Hartmann's article is the same problem I'm having with

dozens of such articles I receive each week from conservative friends ..

articles written by politically polarized writers who are blinded by

partisan agenda .. good writers all of them but they lose a heckuva lot

of credibility when they start hammering on the Democrats .. just as this

writer does when he hammers the Republicans.

 

There is another one floating around now .. partially as follows:

 

" Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country

protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of

illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the US might protect

its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and,

once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand

the thinking behind these protests.

 

Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me

in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, " I've made all the

beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors;

I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard working and

honest (except for when I broke into your house).

 

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add

me to your family's insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide other

benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work

because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in

part).

 

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends

who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be

there.

 

It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and

I'm just trying to better myself. I'm hard-working and honest, um,

except for well, you know.

 

And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a

fraction of the cost of my upkeep, and there is nothing you can do about

it without being accused of selfishness and prejudice.

 

There is a good bit of truth to the above .. but its sarcastic as hell

and doesn't really address the real problem .. it embellishes on it.

 

I'll give 3 to 1 odds that in November Democrats will take control of

the US Congress .. not because folks will vote for them .. but because

folks will vote against the Republicans. I'll give 4 to 1 odds that we

are going to see VERY FEW changes made in the USA .. most problems we're

facing now will continue to drag on. Matters not who is in control when

hot issues require solutions .. the party in power gets it wrong and the

loyal (or disloyal) opposition is passionate .. and without a plan.

 

I am slowly developing an opinion that the Number One problem in US

politics is Extreme Polarization. The Extreme Left and the Extreme

Right are both active enough that they drew adherents .. and it is these

two extremes that affect policy in either party. The 70% or so in the

middle .. between those two extremes .. those who lean a bit Left or

Right of Center are indeed the silent majority .. UNTIL .. we have

National Elections .. then they surprise the pollsters.

 

Both major parties ridiculously hold to an extreme party line and there

is no such thing as negotiation .. partisanship is the order of the day

and logic is overlooked .. lost somewhere in the rabid discussions. If

a middle of the road party emerges .. one that could attract thinking

people who are left and right of center .. but not in that dumb ass

fringe on either side .. logic will prevail and there will be a chance

for bi-partisan agreement on important issues.

 

Hartmann makes a lot of good points .. but they (like the points made by

the conservatives) are diluted when we start tripping over a partisan

stance. Harping on contracts to Halliburton causes him to lose much in

an article that otherwise has a lot of credibility. If a fence is ever

built .. it must be constructed by locals .. all the way. Why? Because

along with the construction bid will come a requirement for maintenance

and that can best be performed by locals who are on the ground daily.

No major contractor would agree to man and manage such a maintenance

contract .. it would be a losing situation when compared with the multi

buck contracts they can win in other areas.

 

We had legally taxed opium sales in the USA for many years and no major

drug problems .. this trivial info is about as pertinent to the issues

of today as is the point this feller makes here.. " The fact is that we

had an open border with Mexico for several centuries, and " illegal

immigration " was never a serious problem. Before Reagan's presidency, an

estimated million or so people a year came into the US from Mexico - and

the same number, more or less, left the US for Mexico at the end of the

agricultural harvest season. Very few stayed, because there weren't jobs

for them. "

 

The fact is .. we have never really had an open border with Mexico .. we

have had a closed border that could NOT be adequately policed. In the

1800s American soldiers were not allowed to cross in pursuit of hostiles

who had attacked American settlements .. and later, when Americans and

Mexicans were stealing each other's cattle and horses, the military on

both sides of the border were turning their heads when their own

countrymen crossed back over with stolen stock, and though there is a

bit less corruption today the border is still not one that can be easily

policed.

 

When I was Operations Chief for the Office of the Provost Marshal, Ft.

Bliss, TX, we worked closely with all the law enforcement agencies .. to

include the Border Patrol (BP). Some of my BP buddies were responsible

for stretches of 10 or more miles along the Rio Grande .. they obviously

couldn't be every place at the same time .. and even the sensors used

then weren't very effective because by the time they could hat up and

make it to the zone of alarm .. the illegal was many miles away.

 

I think Hartmann is correct when he writes:

 

> The magnet drawing them? Illegal Employers.

 

This is not a profound statement .. nor is the fact that we have drug

users in the USA justification for international drug smuggling.

 

> Yet in the American media, Illegal Employers are almost never

> mentioned.

 

True it is .. and this is not really partisan politics .. politicians on

both sides avoid this like a hot tater cause they depend greatly on the

support of big business .. and their constituents depend on it too.

 

Though the above are causes .. they are not THE cause only cause and to

point out a cause without a viable solution is sorta wasted effort.

 

A major cause is lack of solid infrastructure and job opportunities in

Mexico and those countries south of Mexico. That problem is recognized

by both the American and Mexican gummits .. but there are no magic pills

to take to make the problem go away. Still .. there is a need to

address the problem.

 

That there are unfortunate people in the world is a matter of reality ..

but that is the fault of gummits and the history and culture of certain

countries to a great extent .. and to good or bad luck as to where one

is born.

 

 

> You don't have to agree with the author's

> philosophy to be startled into some serious

> thinking.

 

True it is. And when he makes the below statement:

 

> Republicans, however, are not going to allow a discussion of

> " Illegal Employers. "

 

I ask .. why are the Democrats not making an issue of it? Having just

visited 18 US states and talked with dozens of folks on this immigration

deal .. I found that both conservatives (slight right of center) and

liberals (slight right of center) are pretty much in agreement with the

House version of the bill .. and wonder why the Senate is so far away

from the " will of the people " .

 

I think the reason is .. that State Representatives can more easily

define the will of their constituents than can State Senators. The

group(s) represented by the former are more homogenous than are those

represented by the latter.

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) http://www.AV-AT.com

 

Butch .. who is FED UP with Politics and Politicians!

 

> http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0705-23.htm

>

> Ien in the Kootenays, which is being

>

> over-run by rich Albertans these days

[Guest guest]

, Butch Owen <butchbsi wrote:

> The problem with Hartmann's article is the same problem I'm having

with

> dozens of such articles I receive each week from conservative

friends ..

> articles written by politically polarized writers who are blinded by

> partisan agenda .. good writers all of them but they lose a heckuva

lot

> of credibility when they start hammering on the Democrats .. just as

this

> writer does when he hammers the Republicans.

>

> There is another one floating around now

----

Yes, the recent trend to these long, partisan, and often

sensationalized and fabricated anti-somenting or other Internet rants

is a bit disturbing. What is more disturbing is that they get picked

up and passed around as though there were some truth in them. We saw a

lot of it in the last election and it is sickening. The purpose is not

to inform, but to inflame. I've also seen a fair number who's goal is

to polarize people along religious, racial, cultural lines. It takes

about two seconds of fact checking to see them for what they are, yet

they persist.

 

Sometimes I wonder if these people are blinded by any agenda, or if

they just enjoy stirring people up. Like it used to be with the punks

that spread graffiti, or even computer viruses. The goal is to see how

far their damage can spread, it gives them a sort of notariety, and

they get a kick out of seeing the rest of us struggle for damage

control.

 

It is the same way that distorted information about herbs and

essential oils gets passed around. You get someone like Young Living

stating something as truth, and it gets passed on and on to those who

do not challenge it. There are little puddles of truth, like this

group that will counter misinformation, but sometimes the tidal waves

of lies and ignorance are hard to counter. Especially if the

misinformed are unwilling to change their view.

Joanne