OT: Big Time OT - Social Security

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurie,

 

> Hi Butch,

>

> Yes this is a concern to many of us, and yes you are right anytime

> it is mentioned the government runs away from the problem.

 

Unfortunately. :-(

 

> Now this is just my opinion on the matter:

>

> For years the government has treated the Social Security Pension Fund like

> their own little bank and have raided it at will to fund whatever little

> project they needed extra money for. If the fund had been left alone there

> would have been plenty of money available for the many generations to come.

 

If they had allowed the interest to stay there .. you are right.

 

> I believe the main reason they don't want to deal with it is that they are

> afraid that their bad deeds will come out in the wash and then we will see

> just how badly they have stolen from us. This has to be one of the worst

> kept secrets in Washington, and eventually there will have to be an

> accounting. But until the general population demands an accounting, they

> will just keep sweeping the issue under the rug and hoping it doesn't blow

> up on their watch.

 

I think its not a secret .. as I said .. I heard a GAO brief damning the

system and explaining why its going south .. I really think that those

who have been in power for a long time didn't want to touch it because

its a sacred cow .. any discussion upsets at least half the people.

 

> I have a cousin that is a congressional aide and he explained to us some of

> the antics that go on up in Washington. If the people in this country knew

> half of what was really going on up there. Well lets just say that the

> powers that be would be booking the next jet out to a different country,

> because their hides wouldn't be worth a plugged nickel. But as long as we

> have less than half the population turning out to vote and not caring what

> goes on as long as their little lives go merrily on without much care, there

> will not be any meaningful change.

 

I totally agree on the vote .. damn shame folks don't get off their

butts and vote. And they need to dig to find the facts .. not just

listen to the spin doctors of this or that party. As for shenanigans

going on in Congress .. that's sorta universal. There are inherent

problems to giving folks power.

 

> So, those of us that care about the quality of our lives as we age, are

> quietly investing every penny we can lay our hands on to ensure we will be

> able to live with some semblance of quality when we retire. I don't expect

> the government will or will be able to take care of us when we retire in 20

> years, so we are fully planning on taking care of ourselves at this point.

 

I sorta looked at it like that for 20+ years .. between marriages and

when I figured I would not get married again. I knew I had enough to

live better than I needed to live .. but now my life has taken a turn so

I sorta need to also count on that SS check each month. ;-)

 

But you are right on .. even the SS folks write: " Social Security is

the largest source of income for most elderly Americans today. It is

important to remember that Social Security was never intended to be your

only source of income when you retire. Social Security can't do it all. "

 

> I personally do not have any faith in our government anymore, they have lied

> to many times and embroiled us in affairs that have stirred up a hornet's

> nest. I love my country and did my service to it for 4 years in the Navy,

> but I don't trust the people that are currently running it.

 

For sure .. the world today is more complicated than it was when I was a

yonker.

 

> So that's my 0.02 worth.

 

Thankee ma'am. :-p

 

> Laurie Hoppe

 

Y'all have a gud'un .. and keep smiling. :-) Butch

[Guest guest]

, Butch Owen <butchbsi wrote:

>

> Hey Deb,

>

> If we try to turn a systemic problem into a partisan argument .. we

> miss the facts.

 

> Our elected representatives don't have to depend on Social

Security ..

> that is one of the major problems. About the only time we see TOTAL

> bi-partisan support for a bill in Congress is when its one that will

> raise THEIR benefits .. its not a party thing .. its overall greed.

----------------

That is the dying truth. Also our representatives don't have to worry

about affording health insurance and don't need to sweat over what is

happening with Medicare.

 

Bottom line is I have paid into both funds my whole life and I really

resent any implication that somehow SS is an " entitlement " akin to

welfare. And any smart talk that it is our fault if we did not know

how to invest wisely. Sure it may have been foolish of me to trust our

government, but I really hate the attitude that blames the average

person for failing to plan. As far as I knew I was planning, and

social security was part of the plan. It needs to be fixed and it

needs to be funded, and I don't mean fixing by cutting benefits or

upping the age to collect. That is totally unfair to those of us that

worked hard and paid all our taxes and for all these years told that

at age 65 we'll be able to retire. If our elected reps screwed up the

method by which it was funded, they need to fix it, that is their job

after all.

 

While they are at it, it is criminal to allow companies to dump their

retirement plans just because they find themselves in financial

trouble. They are in trouble because the big shots blew it. And before

a single executive bonus is ever paid, that retirement fund needs to

be paid into and it needs to be carved in stone.

 

As for the fears of paying out more than is coming in, considering the

never ending deficit, I don't see why that is an issue. When it comes

to writing a bad check for weapons, our elected officials don't seem

to have a problem spending more than they collect in taxes. So voters

have to put there collective food down.

 

If we can fund war, we can fund social security and medicare. Don't

matter how, but the politicians ask for the job of running things,

they got the chance, so fix it.

 

We get to state our opinions at the polls. So vote.

 

I find it interesting that in Australia there is a $15 fine for

failing to vote. Of course, you can offer an excuse, and over all it

is a pretty loose system. But Australia has a $9 minimum wage and

healthcare for everyone.

 

If our gummint started fining people for not voting, initially they'd

collect a nice chunk of funds, maybe they could fix a few things.

 

But after that they'd sure have to start paying attention, because

when everyone votes, they'd have to start paying attention to a lot

more of the society.

[Guest guest]

, Butch Owen <butchbsi wrote:

>

> Hi Laurie,

>> But you are right on .. even the SS folks write: " Social Security

is the largest source of income for most elderly Americans today. It

is important to remember that Social Security was never intended to be

your only source of income when you retire. Social Security can't do

it all. "

>

-----------

Well, I find this an interesting statement. My family were all coal

miners. Back when social security was created, they believed it was a

retirement program. That was how the politicians sold it to them, most

of them were dirt poor, with an eighth grade education at most, and

struggling with frequent layoffs and all the other problems miners

had, like black lung and a high injury rate. They believed Social

Security was just that. Security so that you would not go hungry or

homeless when you were too old or sick to work in the mines.

 

These are folks who could not imagine " retirement planning " . The

notion of investing seemed silly if you were barely keeping a roof

over your head. And it is the same situation for a lot of people in

this country. And the job that comes with a retirement plan is an

endangered species.

 

So regardless what the politicians " meant " , the perception of many

people is that you should be able to survive on Social Security. You

work for it and you are entitled to it.

[Guest guest]

Hi Butch, et al rantin' on this one . . .

 

You all have made good points, but I believe the most important one is that

" we " (meaning those elected to represent us in either Congress or the

Executive Branch and even the Judiciary don't seem to be able to be fully

trusted to do just that. Power, does indeed, corrupt and absolute power

corrupts absolutely, to coin a famous phrase.

 

Perhaps, we have lost sight of the words in the cornerstone of the

Constitution, the preamble.

 

To refresh our memories:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,

establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common

defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to

ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for

the United States of America.

 

You will see that " promote the general welfare " is prominent . . . Not that

it means welfare (the monthly check) permanently or endlessly directed to

those who don't need it. SS is an insurance policy that we all participate

in and rightly falls under 'general welfare' in this broader sense. Promote

the general welfare also means adequate, affordable access to healthcare (in

our modern world, maybe even universal healthcare as all other

industrialized nations now incorporate in one form or another-ignoring this

problem has become a nightmare for far too many here in the US). It also

means adequate and equal education opportunity (certainly nothing wrong with

Pell grants and interest-free student loans-now being phased out for no

adequate good reason I can see). It means allocating tax revenue for solid

infrastructure for transportation (including internet-we are again the only

industrialized nation not serving all its citizens in this regard and way

behind the 8-ball). Sensible regulations for clean water and air, etc.,

there is more many of you can add, I am sure. All of those things that our

taxes are intended to provide the people as a whole to strengthen our

society are considered general welfare and should not be seen as disdainful

because of the term, 'welfare'. Let's not forget that the airwaves belong

to the collective we, as well, and we are dangerously tipping towards

corporate consolidation with attendant narrower viewpoints presented to the

public. Admired news journalists of the past wouldn't even call most of

what we see on CNN (and certainly not FOX) actual 'news'.

 

Butch is absolutely right that it takes working a democracy for it to . . .

well, work. We don't have to amend anything or change language or pass

bills that limit our rights as citizens. It's all there; we just need to

remember to work it, using the great cornerstone of the Preamble as the

overall mission statement.

 

There has been a lot written about the dangers of excess corporate power

since Dwight Eisenhower made his famous farewell address, including his

remarks warning about the growing military-industrial complex.

Privatization has brought us the continuation of the Katrina disaster and

grossly shamed this administration. We actually did much better when FEMA

was run by government professionals who had autonomy.

 

I am extremely sad that so many military generals and high-ranking officers

are having to step up to refute administration policies that they can no

longer abide by. This is unprecedented. It is difficult, Butch, to not lay

most of the blame on this administration (and the 'do nothing' Republican

Congress that has rubber stamped the Bush agenda) so radically driven by

extreme ideology that most of us do not fully embrace. This scenario has

hamstrung Democrats and Independents, you must admit. There is no doubt

that this President and this Congress will go down in history as the worst

ever.

 

In retrospect, it probably wasn't such a good idea to deregulate and

privatize so many things, because it appears that the human nature to screw

one another for personal gain means we still need rules and regs to keep

ourselves in line and to protect the citizenry. Maybe we will evolve

sometime soon, especially if we continue screwing things up so badly. Or,

then, we could just screw it up so badly there is no return. :-( Maybe

democracies just aren't strong enough to survive and will continue a pattern

of fall and rebirth ad infinitum.

 

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria