OT: Judiciary Discretion ** 20/20 segment

[Guest guest]

Hey Dave,

 

I'm a firm believer in Biorhythms .. and comparing the below to your

normal presentations .. I think maybe you were on an Emotional Low when

you wrote this. ;-) We all have up and down days .. ain't no shame.

 

>>It is my opinion (and my experience) that the American judicial system

>>is NOT perfect .. but its also NOT a joke .. and its NOT screwed up!

 

Yep .. the above is a true statement and I'm sticking with it!

 

> [Dave:] You write interestingly, Butch.

 

Thanks .. I try my best to do so. ;-)

 

> Your experiences are very different than mine.

 

Of course they are .. we're two different critters who lived different

lifestyles .. and many other folks on this list will have experiences

that are different from either yours or mine.

 

> I’ve had a few brushes with the law...not because I’m a criminal

> or addict, but because years ago I used to drink too much. So anything

> that happened to me was my own fault, and I’m thankful I have left that

> all behind.

 

Congratulations on leaving it behind .. but heck Dave .. I used to drink

too much at times. Come to think on it .. I guess I still drink too

much now and then .. and I like it. But I've always been a friendly

drunk .. even funny says some .. and I don't drive when I drink.

 

> But I can’t agree with you that our system is not a mess.

 

No problem podner. Disagreeing with opinions about systems is good

debate .. folks learn from such disagreement .. sometimes. Slamming

certain occupations in the presence of 1,400 folks is a different matter

and it can come back to bite us in the ass.

 

Getting agreement from ten folks on exactly what " messed up " is might be

difficult because each one is likely to list the snake that is still

crawling around in their mind due to feelings that they were victimized

by whatever " system " we list.

 

>>Our US system demands an independent judiciary .. and we know that

>>because people are people .. thus, not infallible, there will be a

>>judge here or there who is gonna abuse that system .. but generally,

>>that is not the case.

 

Yep .. and the above holds true for folks in other professions. Some

folks we ask for opinions about the systems might say that all doctors &

dentists are quacks .. all priests & teachers are pedophiles - all

judges & public defenders are in cahoots .. all bankers & landlords are

heartless .. all parents abuse their younguns .. all fire fighters are

fire bugs .. and all law enforcement officers are crooks and/or storm

troopers. There are such folks in each occupation .. and some folks

will have been personally touched by them .. and we can read any day in

the news about them. Rare it is we read the good things these folks do

cause good happenings don't make sensational news stories.

 

Society is supposed to have great expectations of the above listed folks

but the nature of their duties is such that there is a opportunity for

them to betray our trust .. we depend upon them to be " above " those

shortcomings normally found in mankind and when we find one or more of

them not performing their duties in an honorable manner .. we have the

choice of condemning the entire group .. or accepting that no system is

perfect and perhaps our expectations are a bit unrealistic.

 

> [Dave:] I’d say that here or there you might find a judge that’s decent.

 

I dang sure hope so. Also hoping I am that all priests and school

teachers are not pedophiles. I believe that you didn't really mean to

write what I see above. ;-)

 

> I’ve never been involved in a criminal trial, but I’ve sat in courtrooms

> and watched defendant after defendant get saddled with life-destroying

> fines over minor infractions. If the defendant can afford a lawyer, then

> there will be a lot of familiarity and banter among the judge and them, and

> the defendant generally gets off without anyone having to work much.

 

I've sat in lots of courtrooms too .. and most of the time there were

many familiar faces in that room .. I'm not talking about the judges,

prosecutors and defense attorneys. Unless you attend court often you

can't know how many times that feller who is so loudly proclaiming his

innocence has been in that court .. that year .. maybe for similar

offenses.

 

If we object because some folks .. due to their position, power or bank

account .. might enjoy benefits that others might not enjoy .. few folks

will disagree with that objection. There are levels of privilege found

in any society .. matters not if we live in a capitalist, socialist, or

communist economic system .. or in a democratic or autocratic or totally

dictatorial political system .. it has always been so and though it

would be nice to have the Utopian society Engles and Marx dreamed of,

even Lenin and Stalin and most of those who followed proved that it

wouldn't work .. and the odds of it working in our lifetime are also

purty dang slim.

 

The idealists have always preached that governments should exist to

protect the rights of minorities .. not just racial minorities, but we

got into that rut for a while. The reason for this line of thinking is

logical .. those who have achieved and are wealthy and popular are more

often loved and held in esteem .. and have fewer enemies in the system.

 

When I was a young Lieutenant .. an old Colonel at the Military Police

School once gave a lecture on the discretionary power of the law

enforcement community .. a powerful quote he used was:

 

*Laws are like spiders' webs: If some light or powerless thing falls

into them, it is caught, but a bigger one can break through and get

away. " Solon, quoted by Diogenes Laertius in Lives of the Philosophers.

 

* Plutarch, Jonathan Swift and a buncha other folks paraphrased this

over the years. The important point of this was .. it has always been

so .. and it will always be so .. unless .. we come up with an arbitrary

system that allows no room for human thought or discretion. We create a

machine and input the facts .. and the machine spits out the penalty ..

no defense appeals .. no judicial review .. no extenuating or mitigating

circumstances. The makings of a futuristic horror show!

 

> years ago I got a DUI that was totally bogus.

 

Most DUIs are bogus Dave .. same goes for speeding tickets. ;-)

 

> I had a public defender, and if I live another 500 years I will never

> forget that woman looking me in the eye and saying, " It doesn’t matter

> if you’re guilty or not. You’re in the system now, and everyone is

> convicted. " She was right.

 

Maybe she was right about you being in the system .. that would depend

on whether or not you were a frequent participant in court hearings ..

or maybe she was right in your little parcel of the Earth .. but that

kind of talk would get her butt bounced out of the system in so many

places I know of .. and by so many judges I have known in my lifetime.

 

> But she had an obligation to try to put up a defense, and she didn’t

> bother.

 

There is little to defend in a DWI. I don't know the details of your

case but if they gave you only a Field Sobriety Test I can see where you

might have been victimized .. but if you can get a Breathalyzer or a BAT

then the proof is in the pudding .. and folks are advised to demand same

and if the cop refuses .. IMMEDIATELY go and get a BAT on their own! It

is rare that they are not offered except maybe in some Podunk sheriff's

area of operations or in a corrupt speed trap village.

 

> A few winks and it was all over.

 

We are products .. or sometimes victims .. or our environment and our

experiences .. and/or .. of our interpretation of our experiences.

 

>>What is the weakest part of the US justice system? In my opinion,

>>it is the jury of peers ..

 

Yep .. I stand behind that totally! The whole idea of the jury system

was a knee jerk reaction in opposition to what had been under the old

English system. Most juries are as capable of determining guilt or

innocence as are jack hammer operators to fill a tooth cavity. The

gladiators in the court room are NOT seeking justice .. it would be

totally naive for anyone to think otherwise .. they are playing to the

audience and the best gladiator wins the match .. the defendant is the

prize to be won by the best combatant. Anybody who thinks they have a

better, workable system in mind .. has not given it a lot of thought!

 

> [Dave:] Now you’re scaring me.

 

Didn't mean to scare you Dave .. and sorry if opinions that differ from

yours make you feel threatened. ;-)

 

> I’d say the weakness is not the jury, but the definition of peers.

 

I'd be interested in knowing how you think they should be defined. An

off line reply might be best cause knowing the list mom, she is probably

gonna decide to close this thread pretty soon. ;-)

 

Since we are all " supposed " to be equal under the law and since most

folks are subject to call to jury duty .. its the mission of the defense

and the prosecution to challenge those who they think are too far out of

line of the " peer " system or who have lived a lifestyle that might

result in prejudice on the case .. or are dumb enough to admit they have

preconceived notions.

 

A feller once wrote, " A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide

who has the better lawyer. " Robert Frost.

 

I would rather place my fate in the hands of 3 or 4 judges who were

experienced in dealing with the law and who would consider all the

merits of the case .. not just the technical aspects. And when a judge

tells the jury to disregard that last testimony .. its comical!

 

We use inexperienced folks to determine life and death verdicts in the

courtroom but we are smart enough to use only professional judges in the

Nation's highest court.

 

>>Can one person make a difference? Yes .. but not as much

>>difference as can a larger group.

 

Right .. there is power in numbers fer'shur!

 

> [Dave:] Nor as much as a bucket of money. Here’s the real weakness in

> our system. Money buys justice and poverty is a crapshoot. If you’re

> not white, then the entire playing field is tilted against you.

 

But .. we have many judges who are members of a minority race. Does it

hold that a Black or Hispanic judge will be prejudiced against a member

of his/her own race .. because they are judges?

 

I get kind of tired of hearing that racial excuse crap .. its a common

one that is too often used and its really getting old. I hope to live

long enough to see this fad .. this form of reverse discrimination ..

this excuse for lack of action or for failure .. become less popular.

 

I have a couple of cop friends who are Black and they too are tired of

hearing it .. they are also tired of being called " Uncle Tom's " when

they bust a Black feller.

 

Getting into racial issues is like being caught up in a tornado .. its

gonna take us round and round and drop us off wherever and odds of us

all being badly hurt are pretty damn good.

 

> it works, and no amount of protest will change that, because it isn’t

> the system that needs changing as much as peoples’ hearts – on both

> sides of the bench.

 

We can't legislate morality or dictate how people will think .. though

the Germans have criminalized verbalizing disbelief in the Holocaust and

and the French are now trying to criminalize the same thing for denying

that the Ottoman Empire used ethnic cleansing on the Armenians. America

has done much to legislate against institutional racism .. and those of

us who have been around a while see positive results from these efforts.

 

And .. it is my opinion that nowhere has there been a more harmonious

blending of the races than amongst those who wear the uniform .. be it

military or police or fire fighter .. those who are sworn to protect and

serve do a damn good job of same .. as a team .. as brothers & sisters.

 

The military has done much to disprove the racial tags some folks still

attach to folks .. there is no glass ceiling in any of the armed forces.

Folks like General Colin Powell, General John Abizaid, Lieutenant

General Ricardo Sanchez .. and many, many other minority generals,

colonels and professionals in the non-commissioned officer ranks have

proven (by example) to hundreds of thousands of young Americans that

Blacks, Arabs and Hispanics can rise above their present station in life

if they are willing to exert the effort.

 

>>So .. here I come to defend the American judicial system .. as imperfect

>>as it is .. cause everybody needs at least one champion and to date, on

>>this list .. nobody has come out to defend the American system. ;-)

>

> [Dave:] I think our system is about the best anyone’s come up with

> on paper.

 

Thankee sir .. getting it down on paper is a good first step! Winston

Churchill thought much like this too. He once said something like ..

paraphrasing .. " America has the worst system of government possible ..

except for all the others. " ;-)

 

> The problem I see is class separation, and the fact that judges are

> prejudiced against the defenseless.

 

Class separation is an issue that is not going to go away soon. And

class is not always defined in terms of how much money one has. I think

we will always have .. throughout the world .. a lower class .. they are

in America perhaps 5% of the population .. the dregs of our society ..

they take but don't give .. they are the main reason we need police and

judges .. then we have the other extreme .. maybe 5% of the population

which in old times was called the bourgeoisie or the aristocracy .. they

are the snobs .. then we have the common folk who could probably be

broken into 3 or 4 more categories. By choice, most of the folks

within these many categories of class CHOOSE to separate themselves and

their families from the other categories. Its human nature I think.

 

But Americans who have the right grit have the opportunity for upward

mobility within these social or economic classes. My scanner is broken

now .. otherwise I would put a photo on the list .. my high school class

photo. Everyone in that photo had a nice suit and tie or a nice gown ..

ceptin fer one feller .. that was me. I had a second hand store sport

coat .. already had a fairly decent pair of trousers so the coat was all

I really needed. We were sorta poor .. but my family was also honest

and they were respected in the community .. but they were not invited to

the social functions held by the upper crust. My position in that small

society dictated how my teachers reacted to me. That was in the late

1950s and times have changed much since then. I can recall feeling a

bit uncomfortable back then .. but I never allowed those experiences to

become snakes that could haunt me.

 

Today .. I am economically, socially, culturally, intellectually,

educationally and any other " ly " one wants to come up with .. far ahead

of the rest of the folks in that photo. Many of them are my friends and

they salute me for grabbing my own bootstraps and pulling up on them.

 

As for judges being prejudiced against the defenseless .. as I wrote

above .. there is no logic to that .. and it discards the racial card in

most cases. There are many folks who claim the judiciary is too Liberal

or too Conservative .. and depending on the particular judge we point to

some of those claims might be correct.

 

On the other hand .. a pile of elected officials (from both American

parties) will be sitting out their next term behind bars .. so I reckon

that sometimes even a few big flies get caught in the web.

 

> I have never met a lawyer I’d give a dime for (and me ex is a paralegal)

> so I’ve met quite a few)

 

The difference between a paralegal and a lawyer is as great as the

difference between a midwife and a neurosurgeon .. and sorry I am you

have not had the good experience of knowing a person who was both an

attorney and a fine human being .. I have many such friends. Some are

defense attorneys and I love hearing them discuss their disgust for some

of the guilty clients they are obliged to try to spring. They don't

have to like what they are doing .. they are professionals. This is

sorta like U.S. Army medics treating wounded terrorists .. same same.

 

> and although logic tells me there are good cops out there, I will always

> believe that a good man with a gun and a badge is on a slippery slope to

> becoming a thug.

 

I was a good man with a gun and a badge for many years .. had many good

friends who were the same .. but none were thugs. I have some friends

and customers on this list who are family members of law enforcement

officers now .. and I doubt that they are thugs either. Each time I go

to D.C. I visit the Law Enforcement Memorial .. there are a few names on

that wall that I recognize. Lots of the cops listed there died while

protecting the innocent. If there is anything you wrote in your post

that might piss folks off .. the above statement would be it. But as I

said above, I think you were on an Emotional Low when you wrote this

post .. and if you had saved it and reviewed it later .. I believe you

might not have made the above statement. ;-)

 

There's no question that quotations, like statistics .. can be selected

to support any position a person wants to take. Being a fallible human

critter, I have chosen the following cause I like'em. ;-)

 

" Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are busy

driving taxicabs and cutting hair. " George Burns

 

" In the long run, every Government is the exact symbol of its People,

with their wisdom and unwisdom. " Thomas Carlyle

 

" One law for the Lion and the Ox is Oppression. " William Blake

 

Nothing personal in my post Dave .. but I do think your comments deserve

a reply .. so I seen my duty and I done it. ;-)

 

Y'all have a good one .. and keep smiling. :-)

 

Butch http://www.AV-AT.com