Guest guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 I'm going to try and make a basic soap recipe several times to get the feel of soapmaking and then move on and experiment to compare what effect various ingredients have on the recipe. What is the smallest amount of fat/oil, if there is such an amount, I can start a recipe with in order to play around with so I'm not up to my ears in soap? Also, could I get an explanation of superfatting? I understand it to be adding additional ingredients after the oil/lye mixture so these ingredients are unsaponified but I would like to know what the percentages mean that I've seen such 0%, 5%, etc. and must you superfat a soap? I've read that without superfatting, soap can be very drying. Is that true or does it depend on the ingredients you start with? The couple of books I'm reading talk about these things but don't exactly go into detail. Thank you! Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 What is the smallest amount of fat/oil, if there is such an amount, I can start a recipe with in order to play around with so I'm not up to my ears in soap? [Dave:] I usually make test batches of about 2 lbs of oils. This will give 10-12 bars. Also, could I get an explanation of superfatting? I understand it to be adding additional ingredients after the oil/lye mixture so these ingredients are unsaponified but I would like to know what the percentages mean that I've seen such 0%, 5%, etc. and must you superfat a soap? I've read that without superfatting, soap can be very drying. Is that true or does it depend on the ingredients you start with? [Dave:] Questions, questions, questions, flooding into the minds of concerned young people today! (Sorry, that’s a Frank Zappa line. Couldn’t resist). Here’s my best attempt at distilling this down into just a couple paragraphs: First of all, any lipid (fatty acid) can be saponified (turned into soap). Because the molecular chain of the various oils and fats varies, it takes different amounts of catalyst (lye) to accomplish this for a given amount of oil. This is why you must know the SAP number for each fat or oil that you’re using. Now, assuming that you use the correct amount of lye to achieve 100% saponification of your oil(s), you would find that there’s not much difference between them. You could make an olive oil soap and a coconut oil soap, and while there would be some differences in the lather and the feel of the suds and size and quantity of bubbles, each soap would seem somewhat harsh and unsatisfying. The solution to this is to leave some of the oils unsaponified, or to add unsaponified materials after they lye is used up. The first of these is called a lye discount, and this is where you’ve seen percentages listed. If, say, you decide you’d like to only saponify 95% of the oils in your soap and leave the rest as free-floating oil molecules dispersed throughout your soap, you would use a 5% lye discount. This is different from superfatting, and it’s the more precise of the two methods. Superfatting consists of adding oils – usually specialty oils and butters such as shea of jojoba – or essential oils to the soap when trace is achieve but before the soap is poured into the mold. This is also generally when you add clays, powdered herbs, etc. By this time, 80%-90% of the lye has already been neutralized in the saponification process, and the additional oils will remain mostly in their original form. Learning to use the two processes, lye discounting and superfatting, so that they complement and balance each other is a real art that just comes with experience. -- Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.33/678 - Release 2/9/2007 4:06 PM -- Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.34/679 - Release 2/10/2007 4:08 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 , " David Lambert " <dlmbrt wrote: > [Dave:] Now, assuming that you use the correct amount of lye to > achieve 100% saponification of your oil(s), you would find that there's not > much difference between them. You could make an olive oil soap and a > coconut oil soap, and while there would be some differences in the lather > and the feel of the suds and size and quantity of bubbles, each soap would > seem somewhat harsh and unsatisfying. The solution to this is to leave some > of the oils unsaponified, or to add unsaponified materials after they lye is > used up. The first of these is called a lye discount, and this is where > you've seen percentages listed. If, say, you decide you'd like to only > saponify 95% of the oils in your soap and leave the rest as free-floating > oil molecules dispersed throughout your soap, you would use a 5% lye > discount. This is different from superfatting, and it's the more precise of > the two methods. > Hmmm, answers, answers, answers make me have more questions! So, one must always discount some of the oils they are using in order to retain some of the beneficial qualities and would be experimenting with different discounts/oils be the way to find what comes out best? Does the same apply to superfatting-using various ingredients at different proportions to find what works best? I've seen 0% superfatted soap references. Is that just oils/lye with no discount and no superfatting and why would someone make this soap if it would come out harsh? Could it be made to use later in hand-milled soaps where additional ingredients will be added? Thank you! Susan > -- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 , " susan " <ripple95 wrote: > > Hmmm, answers, answers, answers make me have more questions! So, one > must always discount some of the oils they are using in order to > retain some of the beneficial qualities and would be experimenting > with different discounts/oils be the way to find what comes out best? > Does the same apply to superfatting-using various ingredients at > different proportions to find what works best? I've seen 0% > superfatted soap references. Is that just oils/lye with no discount > and no superfatting and why would someone make this soap if it would > come out harsh? Could it be made to use later in hand-milled soaps > where additional ingredients will be added? Thank you! Susan > > -- For many years I never superfatted my soap. And I never had a harsh bar of soap. The SAP value indicates how much lye it takes to saponify the " saponifiables " in an ounce of oil. Most oils also contain emollient molecules that are not saponifiable. That's why an ounce of coconut and an ounce of olive or sunflower have different SAP values per ounce. Because they contain different amounts of non-saponifiable emollients. So a non-supperfatted soap need not be harsh. In the case of using shea or jojoba as a superfat, they both contain so much non- saponifiable oil that it really doesn't matter much when you add them.Jojoba is a wax ester and doesn't saponify. Another example is virgin olive oil. It is much lower in triglycerides than Pomace. So using virgin olive will produce a soap with more non- saponifiable fatty acids. The term " harsh " is relative. Superfatting doesn't change the Ph of soap. It only adds additional to be left behind on the skin. Just my two cents from an old soapmaker Joanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Just my two cents from an old soapmaker Joanne [Dave:] Thanks for explaining it better than I could! -- Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.34/679 - Release 2/10/2007 4:08 PM -- Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.34/679 - Release 2/10/2007 4:08 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 > Thanks for making things more understandable. So when it comes to the lye discount this is an option, not a necessity. If I wanted to experiment I could discount the same exact ingredients at various amounts to see if there's a difference in the finished product? and this would go for superfatting as well? I appreciate the time you are all giving me with my questions. Reading the process in books and on various sites is interesting but people giving their own opinions based on knowledge, experience, trials and errors is really so much more clarifying. Thank you all. Susan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 So when it comes to the lye discount this is an option, not a necessity. If I wanted to experiment I could discount the same exact ingredients at various amounts to see if there's a difference in the finished product? [Dave:] yes. and this would go for superfatting as well? [Dave:] Yes. By all means, experiment. On the lye discount, 5% is typical. I go as low as 3% if I have major superfatting planned, and up to 7% or 8% if I don’t. Some people discount higher. On superfatting, the measurements are less precise, and it’s done more by feel and by experience. -- Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.35/680 - Release 2/10/2007 9:15 PM -- Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.35/680 - Release 2/10/2007 9:15 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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