OT: Russia - Appreciated (Was: Long and Opinionated)

[Guest guest]

Howdy Nika,

 

Lemme say that I greatly appreciate the candid evaluation you have

provided herein.

 

There will be some list members who do not care to see non-AT posts

about other countries .. that's always the case .. and we have 1,500 +

members here .. can't please all. I've been around many News Groups

these past 13+ years and I believe that if one complains about OT

posts and expects to gain support from other list members, they will

be disappointed. I receive many off line thanks for my OT posts ..

and I'll bet a purty you have already received some for yours. :-)

 

I've done my share of edumocating the folks in this industry for a

lotta years so I don't feel the slightest bit of reluctance to write

on issues that are not AT related.

 

Oh yea .. sorry for the screw up on your name .. I know its Nika .. I

hit an " i " instead of an " a " by mistake. I'm using my server's post

office to send mail so Spell Check isn't working. Crap happens I

reckon .. I get mail where folks call me Botch and Bitch. ;-) And

for some reason folks who have known me for a whiule sometimes call me

Chuck or Bruce. I reckon they can call me as they see fit long as

they call for cocktail hour and dinner time. ;-)

 

> Dear Butch and all,

>

> I'll reply to two Butch's emails in no particular order.

 

You done gud. :-P

 

> Butch Owen wrote:

>

>> Those along the Black Sea coast can get fresh fish ..

>

> Not anymore, unfortunately. Almost no fish left on the Russian side of

> the Black Sea. I was told it has something to do with the change in

> water saltiness and hydrogen accumulation on the bottom. But I am no

> marine biologist so I can't vouch for it.

 

I read that they are over fishing .. it was happening here in Turkey

before the gummit cracked down hard. And now and then we read about a

minor peeing contest when Russian fishing boats are caught in Turkish

waters. The Black Sea (according to some old writings of Jacque

Cousteau) is deeper than deep and with but one outlet so it takes a

looooooooong time to empty itself .. but fish from the Black Sea will

have a much finer taste than a similar species from the Mediterranean

... which is far more shallow and has become a virtual dumping ground

for garbage by some of the Arabic countries. I used to have a beach

house west of Mersin and on our own beach I have seen Pampers and

wrappers of this or that sort wash up that had Arabic writing on them.

Some have literally dumped barges of garbage into the sea and the

currents take them to the Turkish southeast coast. :-(

 

>>> Not a place the average American would want to live.

>

> Agreed. My American husband can only deal with five years of Russia (and

> Moscow at that) at a time. I can barely deal with that long myself.

 

I took it for a month and had to come back to Turkey for a couple of

weeks .. then returned. I ran out of books .. had to replenish my

supply. ;-)

 

>> Russian folks are necessarily into denial of reality because its the

>> safest way to survive.

>

> It has to be this way in the provinces, where people can't do very much

> to change the situation (Russia is still extremely centralized). It's

> not the same in the capitals (as you might know, historically we had two

> capitals - Moscow and St. Petersburg). The intelligentsia fully realizes

> that what's going on is a very clear return to Brezhnev's days and cold

> war, especially in the Russia-US relationship. However, after one of the

> most vocal and powerful opponents of the regime Mr. Khodorkovksy was

> imprisoned, and after the killing of a prominent opposition journalist

> and another murder of a former KGB spy, very few people dare to raise

> their voices of disagreement. Everybody understands that Russian law is

> what the elite that's running the country wants it to be - that is,

> selective. There are still forces here that are working on building a

> civil society, but the pressure on them is unbelievably high. Still,

> that doesn't mean that everybody is in denial. Understanding what's

> going on is one thing - being able to do something about is a completely

> different matter.

 

Agree and thanks. I should have said .. its not like the folks I met

don't understand what is going down but they seem to feel that its in

their best interests to appear to not notice .. and for the exact

reasons you mention .. they can do nothing about it but can get

between a rock and a hard place by running their mouths.

 

>> but " capitalism " is just a useless word they learn in school .. its

>> not practiced ..

>

> What's practiced instead is plutocracy - the power of rich, powerful and

> ruthless. Well, we are not alone in this trait. One doesn't need to look

> too hard to find other shining examples. ;(

 

Totally on the mark .. errr .. the ruble. ;-)

 

>> What is missing in Russia is a Middle Economic Class! What is not

>> missing in Russia is the money or the technology to make life easier

>> .. its not the government's inability to improve the conditions for

>> it's citizens .. its a lack of desire .. perhaps a lack of concern ..

>> to do this. Squeaky wheels do not always get greased .. sometimes

>> they get replaced .. so the smart wheels run quiet.

>

> Agree completely!

 

This was happening for a long time here in Turkey but they finally got

their heads out of their butts and the situation is slowly correcting

itself .. when the Middle Class disappears .. times become ripe for

revolution. Modern Revolutions are rarely a great improvement over

the old systems.

 

>> There were many good times .. and I met lots of great folks .. ALL of

>> them very hospitable and kind. The system needs lots of repair ..

>

> I'd say it needs replaced. What was conceived as a Western-style

> democracy is not what it was supposed to be, and whatever it is is not

> working out. We've arrived at the situation where the top 5% of the

> population (possibly less) own over 95% of the country's wealth. Once

> again, I don't think we are alone in this, but couldn't we have used

> some better examples?! ;(

 

Having spent around 40% of my life in Turkey, I get by with making

statements here that other foreigners can't. Over and over I have

stated (verbally and in writing) that the system here can not be

fixed, it must be rebuilt from the ground up .. and that can't happen

until it falls dead on its butt.

 

>> Russians are very nationalistic people ..

>

> I humbly disagree. Russians have for the longest time been able to

> (rather) peacefully co-exist with many other nations. Whether that was

> forced by the communist regime or not is besides the point (please do

> make a distinction between the Soviet government and its people - the

> Prague events of 1968 were not initiated by the Russian people but by

> the USSR government!).

 

I was not speaking of the USSR but rather of the Russian people who,

at least those I know, don't really consider themselves as having been

Soviets .. but rather as Russians.

 

Interesting (surprising??) is the fact that I know more Belorussians

and Ukrainians who preferred to consider themselves as being Soviets

than I do Russians .. and saying this I understand that the previously

mentioned are, in fact, original Russians.

 

>> those of you who are familiar with Russia's defense

>> against the Nazis

>

> You can't be a nationalist and fight Nazis. You must be a patriot to do

> that but not a nationalist, otherwise you become a Nazi yourself.

 

I debated with myself over whether to use the word " nationalist "

(which normally brings about negative reactions) or " patriot " , which

in some circles, like the European Union, seems to get confused with

nationalism so its slowly becoming a less than desirable trait. I'm

thinking that the EU fears nationalism and they have difficulty making

the differentiation between that and patriotism .. thus, we all become

good Europeans rather than good Brits or Germans, etc.

 

A long and complicated subject the above is .. one that I'll not get

into except to say that as a 30 year soldier with multiple volunteer

tours in Vietnam, and having seen the wrong sides of Cambodia and

Somalia (and some other areas I won't get into) I saw myself (and the

other soldiers on the battlefield) as being patriots .. but in fact,

soldiers don't perform in combat areas other than their own home

ground due to patriotism .. its not for Mom, apple pie, baseball or

Chevrolet .. they do it for their buddies. It took a very expensive

contract study to come to that conclusion and if anyone who has been

there reads that study .. they'll readily accept it.

 

> However, these days the Russian nationalist card is being very actively

> played by the powers that be - they are very consistent in applying two

> age-old principles: 1) distract your people from real problems; and 2)

> divide and conquer. The people are encouraged in their nationalism - not

> patriotism, mind you - to distract them from that fact that the country

> is failing. In the meantime it's being taken advantage of time and time

> again.

 

Yep .. we have the same thing here in Turkey .. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

built the secular, democratic Republic of Turkey from the ashes of the

Ottoman Empire using Nationalism .. he needed to do it as there was no

Nation prior to that. But today, the gummit here tries to use this to

distract the people from the problems they face daily .. and the Turks

have accepted their " Opium of the People " is alcohol and football.

Both distract them and allow them to be gregarious nationalists.

 

> I'll give you a simple example from my own life. I was born and raised

> in Moscow, from a Jewish father and an Armenian mother. Both of my

> parents were born in Moscow, and are certainly Russian by culture. All

> of a sudden, 37 years later, having lived here most of my life, I find

> myself being treated like a second-rate citizen, a " nigger " (NO OFFENSE

> WHATSOEVER ON MY PART IS INTENDED TOWARD PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT!!!

> That's the word my compatriots use now to describe me!). That is because

> " Russia for Russians " is now a popular idea. To them I am not a Russian

> but a JEW. Jewish swine I've also heard many times over.

 

I hear you .. unfortunately. Though its rare, I sometimes run into a

Nationalist fanatic who challenges me because I am not Turkish .. " who

are you to criticize my country " , etc. Well .. I'm one who used to be

an unofficial diplomat for Turkey .. owned a Turkish company, paid

Turkish taxes and employed Turks .. plus am a graduate of the Turkish

General Staff College .. the pecking order here is first God, then

Ataturk .. then the General Staff Officer. ;-) To the many folks who

know me well I have much right to criticize because I CARE and I see

this country as my second home. Those folks always come to my defense

but I try tell the fanatic what part of my anatomy he can kiss before

they get to the point of defending me. ;-)

 

Back to Russia .. was a time (before marriage) I had a Russian girl

friend named Anna .. Jewish. And she pretty much told me what I am

reading here .. but to be honest, I really didn't believe it entirely.

But you are confirming what she said.

 

Off in left field for a minute .. I'll say that Jews have done well in

Turkey .. the Turkish diplomats stuck their necks out to provide false

identify to tens of thousands of Jews during WW II .. they settled and

many stayed here. Annually, Israel holds a ceremony here to thank

the Turks for their assistance. Lots of big business folks here are

Jews and on of the finest political party leaders and Ministers of

State we have had, Ismail Cem, was Jewish .. I saw " was " because he

died around 2 months ago .. still a relatively young feller. If he

had not died its likely he would have played an important role in the

upcoming elections.

 

> Now I'm not at all trying to say that your friends are this way. I'm

> just cautioning that the nationalism you so keenly observed in your

> friends is not necessarily such a swell idea.

 

Agree that Nationalism is not an admirable trait .. Hitler, Mussolini,

Tojo and such were Nationalists .. that is probably one of the many

reasons the European Union fears it .. and I'm sorta glad I screwed up

and used that term instead of Patriot because if not, we would not

have had the benefit of gaining the insight you have provided herein. :-)

 

>> Those older folks who lived .. better it is to say survived ..

>> the reign of Stalin .. don't want to go back either.

>

> Disagree again. People tend to idealize their past, and Russians are not

> an exception in this. Moreover, many Russians were and still are in

> denial about the Stalin era. I've met many, many people who to this day

> worship Stalin - they like the " strong hand " as they call it, they

> believe that that's when the country was at its best. Surprisingly,

> there are also many very young people, born after the collapse of the

> Soviet Union, mostly from the families that did not make a very smooth

> transition from the Soviet days, who believe that the Soviet days were

> better in every respect. They are dreaming to go back to the old days,

> not having any idea other than what their folks are telling them, of

> what that life was about. I would not wish on my worst enemy (which I

> fortunately have none of) to have a neighbor like modern-day Russia gone

> cold war. That would be a total mess!

 

My exposure to those who lived under Stalin was limited .. primarily

to folks who lived in a farm village. Tanya's grandmother and great

aunts and such .. all in their 80s. Of course, those people caught

the real short end of the stick under Stalin .. I heard tales of folks

dying in her village from hunger .. and being hauled off to a Gulag

for holding back a few kilos of grain, etc. Interesting trivia is ..

that his name was not really Stalin and he was not Russian .. he was

Georgian.

 

I have a video I took in Red Square in 1992 .. was a Communist protest

with Hammer & Sickle flags, etc. I was waving one myself cause

someone handed me one. ;-) The entire area was surrounded by police

on foot and horseback .. but I recall that the majority of those

involved (except for the leaders screaming from their loudspeakers)

appeared to be from the bottom end of the food chain. I went back to

the Intourist Hotel around dark .. when the trucks started showing up

and handing out free vodka .. and later that night the police got lots

of action. ;-)

 

On the side .. and at the risk of peeing off some folks .. I think we

might see some downsides to the idealistic, socialist mentality that

is presently driving the train in the unelected European Parliament.

We are already seeing them tell folks how far they gotta stand from

the urinal .. and what Essential Oils they can use. ;-)

 

>> few Russians would immigrate if they had the chance .. they are

>> happy to stay with friends and family.

>

> Another disagreement. Most Russians, although they are not likely to

> admit that to a foreigner, would immigrate. That is why Western

> countries are so reluctant to issue visas to the Russians - too many

> fail to go back to their home country. They choose to stay and do hard

> labor abroad rather than go back home.

 

I relent in the face of more credible information. ;-) True I reckon

that many I talked to would not be entirely open with me .. and if one

considers the average wage of the government employee, its easy to see

why they would prefer hard labor .. just as the Turkish Gasterbieter

prefers to work in Germany.

 

I think its fair to say that generally, Russians love their country.

They are citizens of the largest county in the world, have a rich

history and deep cultural roots, and they are proud of these things.

 

>> I met and ate and drank with Slavic, Tatar, Chuvash, Kazak, Jewish

>> and other Russian nationals .. civilians, military and police ..

>> and they sincerely accept each other.

>

> That does not contradict what I said above about nationalism. They make

> an exception for their friends and family. There is a Russian joke that

> goes like this: " Only nasty Jews live in this building. But my friend

> Mrs. Horowitz is a very fine lady. "

 

We lived that in America .. maybe still do in some small towns ..

like: " I have nothing against Blacks. " (though that was normally not

the word they used). And: " Even some of my friends are Black. "

Mighty White statements those are fer'shur and they don't realize it.

 

>> nobody is trying to keep up with the folks next door because the

>> folks next door live as they live

>

> That's how one would hope it would be. But that's not the case. Another

> joke to illustrate:

>

> God decides to reward a very faithful Russian for his exemplary service

> by granting him one wish. The only condition is this: whatever the

> fellow would get, his neighbor would get twice as much. After long

> contemplation the Russian asks God to take one of his eyes out.

 

That joke would be appropriate in most of the countries I have lived

and worked in .. to include the U.S. of A. ;-)

 

>> Of the 99 + % of the Russians who are not farmers .. probably 99%

>> of them work for the government.

>

> Different in Moscow and St. Petersburg. The majority of people work for

> small and medium-size private businesses.

 

True .. there are also many foreign firms there. In one place I found

written .. and this is also true in Turkey:

 

" It's no wonder if a woman with a university degree works as a

secretary. Having a Ph.D. is no big deal, and doesn't give you a big

advantage; good knowledge of English will provide you with a better

competitive edge. The position that one has in a company is not as

important as the company in which he or she works. Foreign companies

and even foreign public/charity organizations are considered to be the

best employment. "

 

>> I've visited Russia three times .. this trip I passed through Moscow

>> without stopping .. see it once and that's enough. Hit the streets at

>> night there and you are often in harm's way ..

>

> The same as any other big city anywhere else in the world. If you know

> your way around you are quite safe. If you don't you better don't

get out.

 

True .. we are very safe here in Ankara .. roughly 3 million folks but

we don't go to more than 20% of the areas in the city .. but Istanbul,

with 15 million or so .. and probably 3-4 million of them being recent

arrivals (refugees) from the Balkans, etc., going out after dark alone

is a foolish thing even if you know the city.

 

>> Magnitogorsk (where I stayed). It is relatively crime free ..

>

> Disagree. From my work for World Health Organization in the field of

> HIV prevention I happen to know that Magnitogorsk has an extreme drug

> problem. Many factories closed down after the collapse of the Soviet

> Union, and unemployment rates are soaring in industrial centers. High

> unemployment rates---> rise of drug consumption--->rise of crime and

> spread of of TB & HIV. By " drugs " I mean the worst and the cheapest of

> all, heroin. Unfortunately, it's not characteristic of just Magnitogorsk

> but for all big Russian cities which were at some point centered around

> a particular industry. And unfortunately where there are injection drugs

> there is crime.

 

True that drug use leads to unemployment which leads to crime .. and

that crime is normally against persons & property .. but I was (in my

mind) comparing Magnitogorsk and Moscow as I would Ankara and Istanbul

... having lived in both. And, I was expressing the opinions of a

couple of Russian cops I drank with who had worked in both cities.

 

One of the things I dread .. and will probably have a difficult time

getting used to in the USA .. is crimes against persons & property.

Daily, I read the CNN news on the I-Net and it amazes me how much crap

is going down now .. in all my years as a Military Police Officer,

working at times with state and federal law enforcement agencies .. I

did not experience anywhere near the level of violent crime that we

now have in the USA. I don't tolerate anyone interfering with the

life, liberty or property of me or mine .. or of others if I can reach

out to them. So one of the things I will have to do when I settle in

some community in the USA is to get myself deputized because it will

be a lot easier to deal with things in my manner if I have an edge on

legitimacy!

 

>> All Russians I met truly like Putin.

>

> Again, that may be the case in the provinces. Not at all the case in

> Moscow and St. Petersburg. He is neither liked not respected, at least

> not by the intellectual elite. Feared by some, despised by some, ignored

> by the most. I personally can't think what he could be liked for.

 

I totally agree and am very pleased to read these words! I won't go

into detail but for the last few years I've given a lot of attention

to evaluation of Islamic Terrorism .. write on it a bit though not to

folks on these lists .. but in the last couple of years I've also

devoted a bit of time to Russia after Putin. I see no Blue Bird Days

ahead anytime soon.

 

>> .. a young, relatively handsome feller ..

>

> Most of the people I know would rather choose their president based on

> his values and professionalism. Handsome I reserve for my husband. )

 

Jeeez .. some political analysts say that Kennedy and Clinton got the

American female vote cause they were handsome, charismatic dudes. And

Georgie Boy beat Kerry cause Kerry looked like Gomer Pyle. ;-)

 

Americans rarely choose presidents based on their professionalism ..

in most cases we choose what we think is the lesser of evils .. and

often find we out we screwed up. Gonna be interesting next time

around .. Marcia is the only Democrat I know who hasn't thrown her hat

in the ring. ;-)

 

Kidding aside .. I agree that we gotta do better in the USA. Turks

vote according to Party .. some Americans do too. But Americans

should be more sophisticated in this regard because we have more

experience in Democracy. A respected friend in Washington, D.C., told

me last summer that Americans are becoming more polarized each year ..

and that the two major parties have lost credibility because they are

not into problem solving for the sake of the country .. but rather

paying attention to issues that make the party look good. If members

of the two major parties in the USA were as Patriotic as they claim to

be, they should be able to sit down together and do a helluva lotta

good things for our country .. but unfortunately, we've not seen much

progress in a long time.

 

>> And if one compares him with his predecessor, Yeltsin ..

>

> Actually, I've met quite a few people who liked Yeltsin. They freely

> admitted that he was not quite " together " but said that he was " one of

> us " .

 

I reckon being " one of us " has some value if one is a politician ..

but Mr. Yeltsin done gone down in history as being a big time loser.

There is a joke amongst some cops in the USA .. reference breathalyzer

exams - feller hits 10, 20, 30, 40 and then Yeltsin. ;-) He already

has the world's record for the percentage of days in the saddle being

" under the weather " or hospitalized. ;-)

 

>> (except maybe Gorbachav .. who was good but had very

>> bad timing)

>

> I am constantly amazed at the fact that most Russian hate Gorbachev - a

> sentiment I can't share at all! I actually think that his timing was

> very good - the country couldn't've continued on the same path for much

> longer. Gorby just allowed to happen what was bound to happen sooner or

> later. We were too broke to keep going, and he managed to convince the

> Polit Bureau to bury the old Communist ideas. He opened up the country,

> and I admire him for his courage. The going opinion, though, is that he

> was the one that bankrupted and betrayed the country. He, who deserved

> everyone's respect, is despised and laughed at. What a tragic life!

 

Gorby ain't doing bad for himself now .. he's held in very high esteem

amongst those in high places internationally. When I said his timing

was bad .. he was in a position where he had to rush things .. knew

his time was probably short and had to crap of get off the pot like

right now. He was herding cats for sure and the system was not ready

for such rapid economic change .. it was a revolution.

 

>> One can purchase an apartment in Chelyabinsk or Magnitogorsk for maybe

>> 20 K .. the same apartment in Moscow will be 75-80 K ..

>

> No such prices in Moscow. The cheapest studio in a bad neighborhood on

> the outskirts of Moscow costs at least $100G. The apartment we are

> currently renting sells for $300G, and it's just a 2-bedroom apartment

> in a decent neighborhood on the outskirts of the city.

 

I meant one of the previously government owned flats .. now privately

owned .. as you know, some folks get a title to previously government

owned flats. Anna and her sister just bought a typical one in Moscow

a few months ago for roughly 80K. Same time .. I saw what Europeans

call villas and Americans call houses .. on the road to Ufa that might

have been 1,500 sq. ft. or so .. and was told the cost was in the

neighborhood of 200K.

 

>> Might be you'll like Moscow better. ;-)

>

> I'm quite ready for the move. I know Moscow and feel comfortable here.

> But I don't like it anymore. A city of 15 million people is just not a

> place I choose to live in. I'm quite ready for something smaller,

> quieter and friendlier. US it is for now, and it could be Europe next. I

> love moving! (Apart from packing the boxes, dealing with customs and

> paying for it!) )

 

I hear you. I am leaning toward Paris, TN. pop. 9,800 .. on Kentucky

Lake. Travel 30 minutes in either direction and one is in a much

larger city. If I were still single, Ankara would be the place I'd

choose to be living when I go under snakes .. but now I have to be

concerned with the future of my son .. so its small town USA for us.

 

>> but I must return to the USA .. for Alexander's benefit.

>

> Same here, for my kids. My oldest is already in the US, hiding from the

> draft to the Russian army. Fighting a useless war in Chechnya is not

> what I'd like my son to do with his life.

 

I hear you there too .. that particular conflict has more sides to it.

Folks far more knowledgeable than I am on the issues have not yet

completely come to grips with all of those variables.

 

> Cheers,

> Nika from Moscow

 

I thank you ma'am for a very enlightening post.

 

> PS: Butch, my name is Nika, not Niki.

 

Yep .. and again .. my apologies. :-P

 

> PPS: Please, please do not think after reading my post that I hate my

> country. This is not at all the case. It is just that I know it very

> well, I don't like what I'm seeing, and it hurts. However, I believe

> that one needs to know what's wrong to fix things. Hence my rather harsh

> opinions.

 

Totally agree .. and your words above are almost identical to those I

use to justify my criticism of Turkey when I believe it is in order ..

I am disappointed at the way things have gone under the latest

government and sometimes feel that all the years I spent doing my best

to be an unofficial ambassador for Turkey .. working directly with the

military while in uniform .. and with some of the ministries after

retirement on various projects .. was sorta a waste of time.

 

Y'all keep smiling. Botch .. ahhh .. Bitch .. I mean .. Butch ;-)

[Guest guest]

Nika, and BotchBitchButch! Thank you both so much for sharing your

knowledge, insight, and opinions! I, for one, found it most

interesting!! Thanks again!

 

Pam in VERY small town USA, Gettysburg!

 

, " Butch Owen " <butchbsi

wrote:

>

> Howdy Nika,

>

> Lemme say that I greatly appreciate the candid evaluation you have

> provided herein.

>

> There will be some list members who do not care to see non-AT posts

> about other countries > Y'all keep smiling. Botch .. ahhh ..

Bitch .. I mean .. Butch ;-)

>