OT: Carpets & Kilims (Hand Made)

[Guest guest]

Hey Dave,

 

I know little about Persian carpets except that they are made with a

single knot system and the Turkish carpets are made with a double

knot .. called the " Gordes " knot. I once know a heckuva lot about

Turkish (Anatolian) and Yoruk (Nomadic) carpets and kilims cause back

when I was in the diplomatic corps I often got stuck having to take

gummit " fact finders " and their strap hangers shopping for this and

that here in Turkey .. and they always wanted carpets. I've sunk over

100K in them myself since 1964 .. silk on silk, wool on cotton and

wool on wool. Like a lot of Americans who come to Turkey .. I caught

the " Carpet Fever " and pretty soon .. I was " Carpet Poor. " ;-)

 

Though I don't know much about Persian carpets .. maybe some of the

general information below will be of some help to you.

 

Most Europeans prefer wool on wool .. but the older carpets you find

will always be wool on cotton because cotton warp tightens as it ages

... but wool warp loosens and then some of the pile comes out.

 

Silk on silk .. they last forever .. and cost an arm and a leg.

 

> ...Persian carpets? I recently received three, and have been trying to

> research two of them. I can see that they are old, and that they're

> hand-woven. One is a long kilim that might have come from Uzbekistan.

 

 

Might be from Uzbekistan .. but some Uzbek carpets and kilims are what

are known as Yuruk .. or .. Nomadic .. so the creators could have

easily incorporated a variety of symbols they saw in other carpets

during their travels. Lots of Yuruk carpets/kilims are non-standard.

 

Originally, carpets (and to some degree, kilims) were produced to keep

folks warm .. and/or to be a part of a dowry .. and they will be the

highest quality .. like the home the builder built for himself.

Carpets that are produced by hand today might not have the same

quality because the lady behind the loom knows she'll not see it again

when its done.

 

Though they use fairly standard motifs throughout the Near East and

Central Asia .. for those carpets/kilims that were made for their own

use, some designs can be devised or modified and thrown in just to

show the individuality of the lady(s) producing it.

 

The ones on your site appear to be all Kilims .. except for (I think)

002 & 001. Kilims are produced using a different technique .. carpets

are produced by knotting pile threads onto a warp base .. but kilims

are pure weaving .. and generally they are cotton on cotton .. its

difficult to produce them using wool .. but there are a few wool on

cotton around.

 

Some standard symbols and motifs are used throughout the Moslem world ..

and I see some that could be as shown below .. on your kilims:

 

Persian Rugs 008 & 009 .. Symbols of Power and motifs to ward off Evil.

 

Persian Rug 006 .. Standing birds are generally symbols of Love ..

flying birds are generally symbols of Good Luck or Good News.

 

3-3 Persian 005 .. I've seen similar symbols to that central pictogram

on Turkish Kozak carpets .. best I can figure is its a modification of

the standard symbols for Good Wishes for Matrimony .. that's the

closest I can get on guessing.

 

> The other is beautiful but strange. I can't find anything like it

online.

> It's covered with strange animals and has a very mysterious symbol

at the

> center.

 

 

I think you are talking about Persian Rugs 001/002 .. and this one

just might be Egyptian .. not Persian. I have seen some carpets in

museums in Cairo that had fairly similar motifs.

 

> The weave is almost microscopic. You can see photos of them here:

> HYPERLINK

>

" http://www.flickr.com/photos/67351796@N00/ " http://www.flickr.com/photos/673

> 51796@N00/

 

 

Some folks say mdoern day hand made carpets have no intrinsic value ..

say they are works of art and worth what the buyer is willing to pay,

but they are wrong. There is a standard high-low value for the many

different kinds of new Oriental carpets produced .. problem is, once

we buy it we might never get our money back easily if we need it

because like paintings .. beauty is often in the eye of the buyer.

 

Carpet/kilim value is generally based on two things:

 

(1) The tightness of the weave for kilims and the number of knots per

square meter for carpets (which translates to tightness) .. so the

higher quality carpets & kilims will have almost microscopic knotting

or weaving.

 

(2) The intricacy of the designs .. the more busy and difficult the

design is .. the more costly will be the carpet. The most costly

carpet in Turkey .. for example .. is Hereke. If one sees a Hereke

they will not forget it. I have two .. one wool on cotton and one

silk on silk. The silk on silk Hereke carpets .. normally 2 X 3 feet

or so .. are commonly given as gifts to visiting presidents. A 3 x 5

Hereke silk on silk is far too costly for me to consider purchasing

and some of the 8 and 10 square meter ones are for Sultans only. ;-)

 

The second finest carpet in Turkey is the Ladik .. I have a 6 square

meter Ladik that cost $2,200 back in 1980 .. and around $3,500 today.

 

The old tales of " New Lamps for Old " is more than a fairy tale .. the

sellers of old copper and carpets here in Turkey have long since

cleaned out the villages and traded new for old.

 

Back in the 60s .. I bought many old hand crafted copper pieces and

carpets and Russian samovars in the villages for $25 or so .. which

was sorta a lot of money back then .. but one can't find them today

unless they purchase from an antique dealer .. and the prices are VERY

high.

 

I have four Yoruk kilims I purchased in villages in the early 1960s ..

didn't pay more than $30 or so for each. In 1995, I found that they

were all worth well over $1,000 each now.

 

My point in all this .. Dave .. is get a professional Oriental carpet

dealer to appraise what you have .. and make sure to insure them ..

most home insurance policies require us to separately list high value

items.

 

And video them .. with a person holding them up so the size can be

determined easily. Its a good idea to video all the things we have in

our home .. and keep the video in a bank deposit box.

 

> Thanks for any help in solving this mystery! This is after all a VERY

> cosmopolitan group, so I thought I'd take a shot!

 

Perhaps someone on here will be knowledgeable of Persian carpets.

 

I can walk into a room and zap off the names of any Turkish or Yuruk

carpets on the floors .. spent a lotta years studing and investing

in them .. but unfortunately, can't be much help on the Persian

carpets. Before you invest in a book on Persian carpets .. might as

well have them appraised because they might not be Persian anyway ..

folks take the designs from one area and produce similar designs in

another area.

 

Contrary to popular belief .. Persian carpets are not the most

valuable hand made carpets around .. they were just the most well

known until after World War II. You might have something there that

will surprise and delight you .. appraisal by a professional is the

only way to go.

 

> Dave

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

[Guest guest]

Some folks say mdoern day hand made carpets have no intrinsic value ..

say they are works of art and worth what the buyer is willing to pay,

but they are wrong. There is a standard high-low value for the many

different kinds of new Oriental carpets produced .. problem is, once

we buy it we might never get our money back easily if we need it

because like paintings .. beauty is often in the eye of the buyer.

 

[Dave:] Butch, I appreciate the input on this! I’m not really thinking of

selling these rugs...of course, I spoze they could turn out to be worth so

much that I couldn’t afford not to, but that’s not what I’m expecting. I am

curious though, where they’re from, how old they are, what the colors and

symbols mean, and of course, if they’re actually worth something. When I

say Persian carpet, I should have said Oriental since I don’t know where

they were made. What I do know is that they came to this country with a

family of Iranian refugees who were fleeing the regime of Ayatollah

Khomeini. I know they were considered valuable enough to go to some pains

to bring them here, but also that later on they were let go when the family

began to prosper in America.

 

 

 

 

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