OT: The Future of the United States of America - We Must Decide

[Guest guest]

Hi y'all,

 

I recognize that this list is not a political or religious forum ..

but I feel a need to post the below .. and I think the gist of it is

not really political or religious .. its a suggestion that folks write

to their elected officials and tell them what they think .. matters

not to me what they think .. but they maybe need to speak to those who

are in a position to determine their future. This industry seems to

draw a few folks who desire or dream of being activists .. to fulfill

those desires or dreams .. it seems to me that the future of our

country is a worthy cause .. far more so than a Fuzzy Wuzzy Tree in

Bumfuk, HummaHummaLand.

 

Drugs and Violent Crime and Global Warming are all bad news but it is

not these things that I fear right now .. as a Nation we can survive

such things. What we will not be able to survive (as a Nation) is a

tendency toward accepting or tolerating Politically Correct Bull Shit

that is intended to subvert and convert the American system and to

tilt our culture toward acceptance of Sharia Law .. or even have

Sharia Law become a precedent for judicial decisions .. as has

happened in two cases lately in Europe. True it is that many European

people are upset because of those decisions .. it is the judges and

politicians who are bending .. not the people.

 

I am not one to Cry Wolf .. but I understand the minds of the Islamic

Fundamentalist .. I have known MANY over the years. They believe that

it is their duty to export Extreme Islam. My many Turkish friends who

are Moslems know this too .. and they also fear it because Turkey is a

modern, secular, democratic Moslem country. Their laws are based on a

civil code and it does not allow Islam to be a cause for establishment

of court precedent. We must NOT allow this to happen in the USA! We

must be as vigilant as are the people and government of Turkey.

 

I am NOT prejudice against Moslems .. I have lived in a Moslem country

for 26 + years and have worked in other Moslem countries for years ..

all told I have close to half my life in Moslem countries. Because I

have not lived in the USA since 1988, all of my friends are now Moslem.

 

And .. I was married to a Moslem for 21 years & 10 months.

 

In Turkey, my favorite place to have a drink and shoot the crap is the

" Papsi Pub " .. its a nice place where families can come and sit out on

the patio and have dinner, etc. Its also a place where people from

all walks of life (from business people to government officials to

generals to cooks and bottle washers) come to socialize .. and it is

the place where the Moslem expat community likes to come. We often

have a round table discussion with 6-10 folks from Iran, Iraq, Syria

and Turkey .. and Israel and Europe .. and me .. the crazy American.

Not ONE of those people .. including those who are moderate Moslem ..

would ever call me prejudiced against Moslems .. though I (and most of

them) are against the export of Islamic Fundamentalism. So .. anti

Moslem I am NOT!

 

Multiculturalism is a good thing but there are logical limits. I'm as

much against dominance of the Christian Right and the Atheist Left in

America as I am against the Islamic Fundamentalist movement. Our

Nation should not be dominated by religious dogma of any kind. I am

totally for the ideas our Founding Fathers set forth in our

Constitution and Bill of Rights .. and with the modifications thereto

that have put into law concepts and practices that could not have been

foreseen by those Founding Fathers.

 

I am TOTALLY against blind acceptance of conspiratorial efforts to

convert our society and culture to one that mirrors the many of the

Middle East .. and I am TOTALLY convinced that there is a concerted,

well planned, ongoing effort to do this! And I am TOTALLY convinced

that there are short sighted, cowardly and selfish politicians and

judges in our country who allow themselves to be sucked into these

plans until they become unwilling accomplices! Some examples are:

 

1. The story of the Moslem Imams who are suing an American airline

for removing them due to blatant suspicious acts which were obviously

intended to push the line to see how far they could go .. and who are

now threatening to sue the passengers who brought their suspicious

actions to the attention of airline personnel. The quickest way to

silence those who should be watchful is to threaten to sue.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/03/30/imams.flight.ap/index.html

 

2. Some students wearing Moslem dress (which, by the way, is NOT

dictated by the Koran or by any of Mohammed's requirements for the

conduct of women) refused to wear gym or sport clothing in some US

schools because that would expose parts of their body. Some schools

bent to their demands and allowed them to be exempt from class.

 

3. Somali Moslems working for Target in Minnesota refused to handle

pork products. If you wanted a clerk to ring up your hot dogs, you had

to go to another line. Rather than firing them, Target bent to the

pressure and put them in positions where they would not be offended.

Let a Born Again Christian refuse to ring up a 6 pack of beer and see

how long they stay on the job.

 

4. Somali Moslem cab drivers in Minnesota have refused to take any

passenger who had been drinking or had alcohol with them .. or had a

dog with them - even seeing-eye dogs. The Airport Commission in the

Twin Cities is " looking into " this.

 

Minnesota must beware .. if not they might soon be well known by the

name some radio talk show hosts have already stuck them with .. " The

Islamic Republic of Minnesota " .

 

I have spent a helluva lotta time in Somalia .. when I read such

things I think back on the old Suthran claim that some preachers are

into " Do as I say .. not as I do. " Those who watch the news know that

Somalia (which has not had a viable government since the 1991 ouster

of dictator Mohammed Siad Barre) is the new battleground for Islamic

Fundamentalism now. But most of the Somali citizens couldn't give a

crap one way or the other .. its hard to care when one is faced with

lack of food and safety .. and where its rare for one to visit a

doctor in a lifetime .. and where life expectancy is around 45 years

if one is lucky.

 

The above examples of how our system has leaned backwards to

accommodate Islamic Extremists are but a few I could list .. I am sure

all of you have read many, many more. No matter what spin one wants

to put on it, it is stupid and harmful to patronize requests for

extreme behavior by people who come to the USA to make a better life

for themselves. If they want to benefit from being a part of our

system .. they must become a part of the system .. not make attempts

to change it to reflect the systems they fled to begin with.

 

The proper response of judges and politicians should be, those who

want Sharia Law and special privileges should go back to the country

of their origin .. don't try to change America to fit the pitiful

living conditions they have escaped from.

 

If they wish to practice their beliefs in their home or place or

worship then fine it is .. but they should NOT force their beliefs on

me and mine .. or you and yours .. and to Hell with any politician or

judge who allows them to have special privileges and/or assists their

efforts to subvert and control life in the United States of America!

 

If those who make such ridiculous demands think they are winning the

hearts and minds of Middle America .. then they are smoking wacky

tobacky .. and it is such behavior .. as much as are the actions of

Islamic Terrorists, that cause many Americans (and Europeans) to cast

a suspicious eye on Arabs & Islamists in general, not just those who

want to stand out in public as being different.

 

I have read poll results showing that 90% - 95% of Americans think as

I do .. but somehow these poll results don't seem to be getting to

those who make the decisions.

 

America is a melting pot for different cultures .. it should not be a

jungle where every creature does its own thing without regard for the

other creatures.

 

When accepting the Republican nomination for the U.S. Senate, in June

1858, Abraham Lincoln gave a famous speech which is noted for the

phrase, " A house divided against itself cannot stand. " His frame of

reference then was the issue of slavery .. but that phrase was taken

from an older reference .. Matthew 12:25.

 

The Official Seal of Kentucky, since 1792, shows two people embracing

each other, with the words " Commonwealth of Kentucky " over their heads

and around them the words " United We Stand, Divided We Fall. "

 

It appears that many of the judges and politicians in our country

have forgotten these famous and profound phrases.

 

I have written to my elected representatives and advised them of my

positions. I have advised that I think we are too quick to release

dangerous criminals .. child rapists and murderers .. when FBI and

local police records show that the majority of these sick criminals

immediately prey on the weak and innocent and wind up back in the

slammer in a short time. I have given my opinion on the subversion of

the American system and the obvious dangers of same .. and a few other

issues. That is all I can do .. but to sit on my ass and do nothing

would be a shame!

 

I recommend others consider writing to their elected officials .. tell

them what you think and what you will and will not tolerate if they

want your vote .. it matters not to me what your position is, the

logical majority will (hopefully) rule .. but we should communicate

our positions to those who can determine the future of our country.

 

I believe that American citizens (and immigrants) should be free to

pursue happiness as long as they don't stomp on the freedoms of others

or make attempts to control the American way of life.

 

I believe in " live and let live " as long as one doesn't interfere with

the life, liberty and property of me and mine. Those who wish to live

in a different manner than me and mine have my blessings as long as

they don't interfere with us. I have always and will continue to try

to help those who are in trouble if I can reach out to them .. matters

not what their race, religion or political affiliation is.

 

I believe that it is my right and duty (and for Americans in general)

to do what we can to counter (by whatever means necessary) those who,

with evil intent, wish to interfere with those around them. I have

acted to counter such things many times and I will continue to do so.

 

I value life .. it bothers me to see a dog, cat or rabbit smashed on

the side of the road. But I can not seem to get upset when I read of

the death of some low life piece of scum who has victimized others

without cause or mercy .. or who wished to take my country backward in

time and control freedoms of thought, speech, dress, and religion of

American citizens.

 

I want my son and his sons to be able to see trees, breathe fresh air

and swim in clean waters some day .. but more important than this is

I do not want them to live in fear or misery due to potential danger

from other humans. The animals we must fear most are those with two

legs, sick minds, and/or evil hearts. They will never become extinct!

 

The below is satire .. but it might be sort of descriptive of where

some folks are in the USA today.

 

http://www.confusionroad.com/article.php?article_id=309

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch

[Guest guest]

I recognize that this list is not a political or religious forum ..

but I feel a need to post the below .. and I think the gist of it is

not really political or religious ..

 

[Dave:] I think it’s a discussion that’s important enough to bring up

wherever and whenever people will listen and discuss. We as Americans

aren’t doing nearly enough of this...and the internet is one of the few

forums open to everyone. (And one of the few arenas where there seems to be

a number of people who actually think about things. I’m amazed at the sheer

quantity of sports statistics, analysis, and trivia most men and many women

carry around in their heads, not to mention the lives of fictional TV

characters and only semi-real celebrities. If they used that mental

capacity to address the issues of the day instead of concentrating on

ephemeral and unimportant things, the world would be a better place).

 

This industry seems to

draw a few folks who desire or dream of being activists .. to fulfill

those desires or dreams .. it seems to me that the future of our

country is a worthy cause .. far more so than a Fuzzy Wuzzy Tree in

Bumfuk, HummaHummaLand.

 

[Dave:] The Fuzzy Wuzzy Trees are important, too. But you’re right: the

future of our own country is at stake right now, and so far we are sitting

back and letting others address matters, and hoping against hope they won’t

screw us too badly. Generally, this approach is the road to painful and

lingering regrets.

 

Drugs and Violent Crime and Global Warming are all bad news but it is

not these things that I fear right now .. as a Nation we can survive

such things. What we will not be able to survive (as a Nation) is a

tendency toward accepting or tolerating Politically Correct Bull Shit

 

[Dave:] While I agree with everything you said on this topic, it’s not even

the main problem. I disagree heartily with those who claim that

multiculturalism can’t work. It has worked just fine at many times and

places throughout history, just as it has been subverted and feared at

others. Two thousand years ago, the middle east was nowhere near as

polarized and paranoid as it is now. It was bad enough to be sure, but at

the same time, the markets of any city in those days were crowded with Jews,

Mithraists, Christians eventually, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and many

languages were spoken. The lingua franca was Greek or Aramaic, but people

also spoke Hebrew, Arabic, Farsi, Hindi, Latin, Chinese, and a dozen other

tongues. The Moorish cities of Spain were incredibly cosmopolitan. There

was tension between Islam and Christianity but there was also a steady

stream of influence brought by merchants, scholars, princes and popes who

studied and lived in the centers of Islamic power. It was this influence,

as much as the rediscovery of the Greeks, that lifted Europe up from the

stinking mess of the Dark Ages into the Renaissance.

 

But our main problem right now is the fact that we have criminals of

historic stature running our government and our major companies. No, even

that’s not the problem - even though these guys are well on their way to

destroying this nation. The problem is that we have built a way of life

that is simply unsustainable over the long haul. We’ve taken out more than

we’ve put back for so long that we don’t see anything wrong with it. If

this was just an American problem, then the world could simply eliminate or

humble us and get back on track. But it isn’t within miles of being that

simple. It’s a worldwide thing, everyone wants all the money they can get

their hands on, and they don’t mind bonking their neighbor on the head to

get it. What’s happening in the world right now is the whole house of cards

starting to shake badly in a stiff breeze.

 

I’m tempted to think it’s the best thing that could happen. Our paradigms

suck.

 

 

I am not one to Cry Wolf .. but I understand the minds of the Islamic

Fundamentalist .. I have known MANY over the years. They believe that

it is their duty to export Extreme Islam. My many Turkish friends who

are Moslems know this too .. and they also fear it

 

[Dave:] That “Islam” out of that paragraph and substitute Christian or

Jewish, and you have a valuable snapshot. The extremists are grabbing for

the helm on every side, and if we let them have it, there’s gonna be a

bloodbath. Unfortunately, this is nothing new. Only the weapons keep

getting more devastating.

 

On a positive note, here’s a quote from a Baha’i newsletter, which is

followed by a couple interesting articles...I’ll just give the lead-in

paragraph:

 

“The US national evangelical community seems to be taking great strides

forward toward reconnecting with a social conscience. Since the beginning

of 2007, the National Association of Evangelicals (with 30,000,000 members)

has launched two major campaigns: one to protect the Earth, and the other to

end modern-day slavery.

 

 

 

These efforts obviously offer a way to connect with such people and to help

stimulate activity among them and within an interfaith context.”

 

So s**t isn’t the only thing that happens. Good stuff does, too. In fact I

am a true optimist about the world as a whole, it just doesn’t show in the

context of this discussion.

 

 

I am NOT prejudice against Moslems

 

[Dave:] I’m not either. Until the various religions come to realize that

each of their prophets’ teachings revolved around peace and tolerance, the

extremists are going to be at each other’s throats. But the

middle-of-the-roaders aren’t like that. I’ve known, worked with, and kissed

the babies of any number of Muslims, each of which has been a kind,

peaceful, devout individual. Christian Fundamentalists are at least as

harmful in the overall scheme as the Islamic crazies. And even though it’s

politically incorrect (big time!) to say it, there are radical Jews pulling

strings all over the place, too. It’s a big, nasty picture, folks.

Everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath, and right now that ain’t

happening.

 

By the way, Butch, I have a question: have you read the Qur’an? I ask

because many years ago a Muslim friend gave me a copy which I tried over and

over to read. I observed that while you may or may not believe what it

says, you can at least open the Bible at any point and understand what it’s

talking about. But with the Qur’an, there are many passages that seem

almost to be gibberish. When I asked my friend about this, he told me that

Arabic is almost impossible to translate adequately into English. In the

intervening years, I have learned a lot about Middle Eastern languages even

though I can’t speak any of them. I have many friends who speak Farsi, and

several who speak Arabic at home. I’ve learned that for the most part,

these are very ornate languages, given to florid descriptions and

extravagant analogies. Between each other, this is considered part of the

beauty and poetry of their language, and they’re right. In translation, it

is very difficult to do it justice. The Baha’i scriptures are in Farsi and

Arabic, and less than 50% of them have been translated into English because

of this difficulty. Recently I obtained a copy of the Qur’an that has been

carefully translated, and it reads like the translations of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá on

my shelf. Comparing it to the earlier translation I was given, I am

reminded of comparing the New International Bible to some of the

predecessors of the King James version.

 

All of which is by way of leading up to the following two observations:

first, that Islam wasn’t meant to address the entire world. Muhammad came

to the Arabic tribes who were basically living the way they had since before

dirt, and unified them into a real culture. He helped them focus their

energies until they became the world leaders in mathematics, poetry, art,

astronomy, medicine, and even engineering. Eventually of course, the forces

of empire took over from those of piety, which is pretty much what happens

at some point with every religion. The second observation is that each of

the major religions of the Middle East (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)

recognizes the messengers of God who went before, but insists that their own

founder is the final word. Thus, the Christians agree that Moses was a true

representative of God on Earth but insist that his word is superseded by

that of Christ. Muslims recognize both Moses and Christ but insist that

Muhammad has trumped them both. The fourth major religion to arise from the

region in historic times is the Baha’i Faith, which recognizes all of the

forgoing prophets, adds to them with a modern figure (actually two), and

foretells that God will send a new messenger in the future.

 

 

In Turkey, my favorite place to have a drink and shoot the crap is the

" Papsi Pub "

 

[Dave:] There used to be a club in Nuremburg (called “Klub Las Vegas” of

all things) where I used to hang out. I liked it because very few GIs found

their way there, because it was owned by a seriously crazy Spanish lady, and

because it was a place where African ex-pats hung out. The girls there were

also available for things besides serving beer - but of course I remained

pure from all of that. Many, many interesting discussions took place there

over endless mugs of the local brew – Dinkel-Äcker it was. The politics of

the day were hot. This was 1972, the year of the Munich Olympics bombings.

I remember I almost got killed by a drunk Kenyan who for some reason became

convinced I was a spy for the CIA.

 

Multiculturalism is a good thing but there are logical limits. I'm as

much against dominance of the Christian Right and the Atheist Left in

America as I am against the Islamic Fundamentalist movement. Our

Nation should not be dominated by religious dogma of any kind. I am

totally for the ideas our Founding Fathers set forth in our

Constitution and Bill of Rights .. and with the modifications thereto

that have put into law concepts and practices that could not have been

foreseen by those Founding Fathers.

 

[Dave:] Well said, and thank you for saying it. There is only one way this

country is going to get back on track, and it means shutting off our

televisions among other things.

 

No matter what spin one wants

to put on it, it is stupid and harmful to patronize requests for

extreme behavior by people who come to the USA to make a better life

for themselves. If they want to benefit from being a part of our

system .. they must become a part of the system ..

 

[Dave:] Agreed, but we also have the responsibility to be tolerant of

different cultures. Why? Because it’s expedient. There’s a huge tension

here. It may take generations to work out, but that is the history of this

country. I have no problem for instance with every schoolchild learning

Spanish, as long as every schoolchild learns English as well, and as long as

classes are conducted in English. I care not whether it’s the “official”

language or not, the fact is that it’s the common language of our country,

and if you want to live here you need to speak it. Period. I think every

schoolchild should be required to learn the above two languages beginning in

kindergarten, plus another elective language, plus Latin and Greek. Yeah,

that’ll happen. I’m serious, though. We Americans are some of the most

insular people in the world. There’s nothing like having a common language

to break down barriers.

 

I have read poll results showing that 90% - 95% of Americans think as

I do .. but somehow these poll results don't seem to be getting to

those who make the decisions.

 

[Dave:] They’re getting through, alright, and they’re taking names. They

have an agenda.

 

I believe that it is my right and duty (and for Americans in general)

to do what we can to counter (by whatever means necessary) those who,

with evil intent, wish to interfere with those around them. I have

acted to counter such things many times and I will continue to do so.

 

[Dave:] I’ve believed this all my life. There are some uncomfortable

choices on the horizon. There are some real ugly forces rearing their heads

in the world. It’s not just the endless wars. Eventually the truth about

9/11 will come out, long after the guilty parties are out of reach. You

titled this thread The Future of the United States of America, and one thing

I can never forget is Christmas, 1993. We woke up and that old devil that

had been there all our lives, the Soviet Union was gone. Just gone, poof.

Of course it didn’t happen in a vacuum and there were events leading up to

it, but as far as the average American was concerned, it was like waking up

from a dream, or being in one. I’m concerned it could happen again.

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

, " Butch Owen " <butchbsi > I

I> If they wish to practice their beliefs in their home or place or

> worship then fine it is .. but they should NOT force their beliefs on

> me and mine .. or you and yours .. and to Hell with any politician or

> judge who allows them to have special privileges and/or assists their

> efforts to subvert and control life in the United States of America!

-------------------------

Well this applies to everyone. Keep it at church and home.

 

Politicians are totally missing the mood of the people on a lot of

issues. Same with the illegal immigration issue. It is not about anti-

immigration, it is anti-illegal. Somehow that " illegal " always gets

lost in the news reports and they try to make it about bigotry..

[Guest guest]

---------------------------

Well this applies to everyone. Keep it at church and home.

 

[Dave:] Everyone needs to check their dogma at the door. But we leave the

love-your-brother stuff at home far too often.

 

 

 

Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. –Buddhism

 

 

 

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. That is the entire Law;

all the rest is commentary. –Judaism

 

 

 

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. –Christianity

 

 

 

No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he

desires for himself. –Islam

 

 

 

Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself. –The Baha’i Faith

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Nikki said: " If these types of discussions are going to happen here, I

would

appreciate that everyone's religion (far right, far left or Religious

" Right " or Left) be respected. This is all I will say on this.

Please just be aware that not everyone feels the exact same way and

no inferences to negative Christian slams, I feel, should be made. "

 

Hi Nikki,

I read all the posts and found it very interesting...did not see any

negative things about any religion...no slamming here...very informative.

I think about these issues and very concerned, its nice to be able to see

other peoples discussion and concern on the subject....even though this is

a subject not related to the group. Its wonderful to be able to discuss

issues like this with the group...especially when the group has been slow.

I was hoping that Butch or anyone else would bring up a discussion such

as this...I remember years ago a post about Americas real friends that

Butch wrote...it ended up true.

Nikki keep up the good work you do in your neck of the woods,

:)Paula