OT: The Future of the United States of America - We Must Decide - LONG - Part I

[Guest guest]

Hey Dave,

 

My original purpose in posting was to get folks to pay attention to

what is happening in the USA .. not just in Afghanistan and Iraq and

some other Middle East countries .. so they might decide to tell their

elected officials that they are not happy with politicians and judges

bending over backwards to accommodate those who might wish to

eventually gain control over the way we live in the U.S.A. But ..

your post has driven me to write even more on this issue so those who

didn't like the first post should ZAP this one now. ;-)

 

There is a Part I and a Part II to this post.

 

>>I recognize that this list is not a political or religious forum ..

>>but I feel a need to post the below .. and I think the gist of it is

>>not really political or religious ..

>

> [Dave:] I think it's a discussion that's important enough to bring up

> wherever and whenever people will listen and discuss. We as Americans

> aren't doing nearly enough of this...and the internet is one of the few

> forums open to everyone. (And one of the few arenas where there

seems to be

> a number of people who actually think about things. I'm amazed at

the sheer

> quantity of sports statistics, analysis, and trivia most men and

many women

> carry around in their heads, not to mention the lives of fictional TV

> characters and only semi-real celebrities. If they used that mental

> capacity to address the issues of the day instead of concentrating on

> ephemeral and unimportant things, the world would be a better place).

 

Agree for sure I do .. but there are some on this list who will not

agree .. and some might even protest on or off line to the List Mom.

Having spent a good part of my life as a political military analyst

and living/working in Moslem and Islamic countries (there is a

difference), I believe strongly that we in the United States and in

Europe have much to fear from Political Islam .. but there are some

who would rather keep up with the football scores and the daily soap

operas because its more comfortable. I don't recommend folks become

fearful because they can't do anything about this .. I recommend they

become informed and become active and tell their elected leaders where

they stand.

 

>>This industry seems to draw a few folks who desire or dream of being

>>activists .. to fulfill those desires or dreams .. it seems to me that

>>the future of our country is a worthy cause .. far more so than a Fuzzy

>>Wuzzy Tree in Bumfuk, HummaHummaLand.

>

> [Dave:] The Fuzzy Wuzzy Trees are important, too.

 

Correct .. and so are the three toed, cross eyed Zambian tree frogs

which might become extinct .. but nature has a way of filling in the

voids in that regard .. its called evolution. I am concerned that

life as we know it today in the USA and in Europe might evolve too

quickly into something we (who are alive when it happens) can't live with.

 

> But you're right: the future of our own country is at stake right now,

> and so far we are sitting back and letting others address matters, and

> hoping against hope they won't screw us too badly.

 

True that is .. and I don't want to beat this subject to death because

it will get in the way of other things on this list if we allow it to

do so. But again, I recommend folks NOT disregard the things that are

now happening to us .. that they speak out and force those who can

make the decisions about our future to listen to them .. it is not a

sure fire way to operate but its the only legal effective way we have.

 

>>Drugs and Violent Crime and Global Warming are all bad news but it is

>>not these things that I fear right now .. as a Nation we can survive

>>such things. What we will not be able to survive (as a Nation) is a

>>tendency toward accepting or tolerating Politically Correct Bull Shit

>

> [Dave:] While I agree with everything you said on this topic, it's not

> even the main problem.

 

Political Correctness is not a main problem but it is a means to

stifle discussing and thus, ensure that the main problems are not

adequately addressed. Folks do a helluva a lotta tongue biting these

days .. they fear being called a bigot if they point out obvious

problems .. that is what the Imams involved in the airline incident

appear to be shooting for .. put fear in folks so they will not rat on

us when we want to act in an abnormal manner. That unto itself is a

form of terrorism!

 

> I disagree heartily with those who claim that multiculturalism can't

work.

 

I disagree with those who say multiculturalism ABSOLUTELY can't work;

the history of the U.S.A shows they are wrong. But multiculturalism

is not what we must be wary of .. as I said, the U.S.A. has always

been a melting pot of cultures and those who were able to assimilate

became Americans .. all the while they were able to keep as much of

their culture as they wanted but not on the job or in the school or in

the military, etc.

 

Those who wish to maintain their own culture while living in and

making a living in the U.S.A. must accept that there are limits to the

freedoms we have. This holds true for any other country. Freedom of

Speech does not allow one to shout " Fire " in a crowded theater or use

vulgarity in most public places. Freedom to Dress as one wants does

not allow one to go topless on the streets of most cities in America

or to decide one's own personal dress code in most private and

government offices or when attending a public funded institution of

learning. Freedom of Religion doesn't allow one to preach racial

hatred, anarchy or substitution of religious dogma for the United

States Constitution and Bill of Rights, nor does it allow one who is

used to dominating their wife and female children to treat them in

some manners while in the U.S.A. .. our laws prohibit many rights an

Islamic man has while in an Islamic country.

 

> Two thousand years ago, the middle east was nowhere near as

polarized and

> paranoid as it is now.

 

Two thousand years ago the Middle East was accustomed to being ruled

by Empire after Empire after Empire .. the Persians, the Achaemenids,

the Macedonians, the Egyptians and the Seleucids. Then in the 1st

Century AD came the Romans followed by the Byzantines in the 4th

Century AD .. and many others right up to the Ottomans and the

beginning of WW I. When one is ruled by an Empire there is little

room for polarization!

 

Under Roman and Byzantines rule (until the 7th Century AD) there was

no clear cut distinction between Europe and the Middle East.

Anatolia, Syria, Palestine and Egypt were all Greek speaking

Christian, united culturally and politically with the Greco-Roman

world under the rule of Constantinople.

 

> There was tension between Islam and Christianity but there was also

a steady

> stream of influence brought by merchants, scholars, princes and

popes who

> studied and lived in the centers of Islamic power. It was this

influence,

> as much as the rediscovery of the Greeks, that lifted Europe up from the

> stinking mess of the Dark Ages into the Renaissance.

 

There was no tension between Islam and Christianity 2,000 years ago ..

Islam didn't come into being until 634 AD .. 1,370 years ago .. and it

was the rise of Islam that created the Middle East as a distinct

cultural region. Even Anatolia remained Christian until 400 years

later when the Ottomans took it. The Arabs never got into Anatolia ..

the Byzantines kept them out. But those areas that were conquered by

the Arabs converted to Islam within two generations and that was when

the cultural boundary between Europe and the Islamic world was created.

 

(Snipped)

> The problem is that we have built a way of life that is simply

unsustainable

> over the long haul. We've taken out more than we've put back for so

long

> that we don't see anything wrong with it.

 

I don't agree that this is our biggest danger, but I'll let it go. ;-)

 

(Snipped)

> they don't mind bonking their neighbor on the head

 

Mankind has NEVER minded bonking their neighbor on the head. If it

were not so then the original tribes would rule the entire world now. ;-)

 

> What's happening in the world right now is the whole house of cards

> starting to shake badly in a stiff breeze.

 

What is happening now is a religious Crusade .. but this time its the

Islamic world that is invading.

 

>>I am not one to Cry Wolf .. but I understand the minds of the Islamic

>>Fundamentalist .. I have known MANY over the years. They believe that

>>it is their duty to export Extreme Islam. My many Turkish friends who

>>are Moslems know this too .. and they also fear it.

>

> [Dave:] That " Islam " out of that paragraph and substitute Christian or

> Jewish, and you have a valuable snapshot. The extremists are

grabbing for

> the helm on every side, and if we let them have it, there's gonna be a

> bloodbath. Unfortunately, this is nothing new. Only the weapons keep

> getting more devastating.

 

The Islamic countries have nothing to fear from the Christians .. most

of them have strict laws against proselytizing by non Moslems .. and

the number of Christian missionaries who feel driven to " spread the

word to the heathens " are few .. but one of the main tenants of Islam

is to spread .. to envelope .. to conquer!

 

Clipped the info on the National Association of Evangelicals .. but

good it is that they are working to protect the Earth and end slavery.

Tough tasks both of these. ;-)

 

> So s**t isn't the only thing that happens. Good stuff does, too.

In fact I

> am a true optimist about the world as a whole, it just doesn't show

in the

> context of this discussion.

 

Considering the history of the world .. and the mission of Political

and Fundamentalist Islam, I have no idea why anyone would choose to be

an optimist. Maybe it is more comfortable to believe in Blue Bird

Days than it is in Tornados and Earthquakes. ;-)

 

>>I am NOT prejudice against Moslems

 

And .. I will again clarify that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between the

Moderate Moslem and the Fundamentalist Islamic! There is no place

that this is more clear to the average person than here in Turkey.

That difference can be compared to the difference between a Sunday

Pancake Supper held at the local Baptist Church and the Kool Aid Party

that Reverend Jim Jones and his People's Temple held in Jonestown, Ghana.

 

> [Dave:] I'm not either. Until the various religions come to

realize that

> each of their prophets' teachings revolved around peace and

tolerance, the

> extremists are going to be at each other's throats. But the

> middle-of-the-roaders aren't like that. I've known, worked with,

and kissed

> the babies of any number of Muslims, each of which has been a kind,

> peaceful, devout individual.

 

Dave .. the various religions are not about to compromise and buy into

the teachings of the other religions .. it AIN'T gonna happen .. and

its not necessary anyway. There are degrees of the danger of

extremism .. from withholding a blood transfusion to attaching

explosives to the chest of young children .. the difference is easy to

see. Those who believe that suicide is a sin and will bar one from

entering the Great Hereafter are at a disadvantage when going up

against those who believe that suicide is the key to the door of the

Great Hereafter!

 

> Christian Fundamentalists are at least as harmful in the overall scheme

> as the Islamic crazies.

 

True it is of the rare Christian Fundamentalists like David Koresch

and the Reverend Jim Jones .. but untrue it is when comparing the

average Christian Fundamentalist and the average Islamic

Fundamentalist. The big difference is the Christian is not trying to

kill those who do not think as they do!

 

Clipped.

 

> By the way, Butch, I have a question: have you read the Qur'an?

 

Yes sir .. front to back .. got my copy from the Saudi Embassy here in

Ankara in 1965. Reason I got it was because I planned to marry a

Moslem. Reason I read it in detail later was because it was a part of

my job to understand Islam. It is an English language copy.

 

> I ask because many years ago a Muslim friend gave me a copy which I

tried

> over and over to read. I observed that while you may or may not believe

> what it says, you can at least open the Bible at any point and

understand

> what it's talking about. But with the Qur'an, there are many

passages that

> seem almost to be gibberish. When I asked my friend about this, he

told me

> that Arabic is almost impossible to translate adequately into English.

 

True it is that the richer languages like Arabic and Chinese .. and

many of the less complicated languages like Turkish .. are very

difficult to translate because .. there is a requirement to translate

more than just words .. the difficulty comes in translating culture.

Few folks on this list understand the Arab mind .. or the Islamic

mind. I understand both .. that is why I wrote the first post.

 

In addition to the actual difficulties of translation .. is the belief

that since Mohammed wrote and spoke in Arabic .. there is no way that

the true meaning of his works can be understood in any language except

Arabic. But Mustafa Kemal Ataturk didn't buy that .. when he created

a new Nation he had the Koran translated to the new language that he

wrote .. he did away with the Ottoman language and had the Koran

translated to Turkish!

 

> In the intervening years, I have learned a lot about Middle Eastern

languages

> even though I can't speak any of them.

 

I speak Tarzan Arabic .. but I understand the Arab mind far more than

I understand the Arabic language .. I have worked a lot with Arabs. I

have drank a lot with them too.

 

> I've learned that for the most part, these are very ornate

languages, given to

> florid descriptions and extravagant analogies. Between each other,

this is

> considered part of the beauty and poetry of their language, and

they're right.

 

Absolutely right! Arabic is a very strong and powerful language.

Some Western scholars have said that Omer Khayyam could not have

written as he did if he had not used Arabic. It is truly a language

of poetry.

 

> In translation, it is very difficult to do it justice.

 

Correct!

 

Clipped the portion on the Baha'i because they are no danger to us. ;-)

 

> All of which is by way of leading up to the following two observations:

> first, that Islam wasn't meant to address the entire world.

 

It addressed the whole world that they were aware of at that time.

 

> Muhammad came to the Arabic tribes who were basically living the way

they

> had since before dirt, and unified them into a real culture.

 

He gave them some rules to live by .. three of the five pillars of

Islam are very logical .. two of them were logical back then ..

perhaps even now. 1. Declaring that there is one God and Mohammed is

His Prophet. 2. The five daily prayers and cleansing prior to the

prayers. 3. The giving of alms to the poor .. there was no social

security back then. 4. Fasting during Ramadan .. fasting was a norm

for all the religions. 5. The Pilgrimage to Mecca.

 

> He helped them focus their energies until they became the world

leaders in

> mathematics, poetry, art, astronomy, medicine, and even engineering.

 

True it is .. but Mohammed and those who followed him (like the

Sultans of the Ottoman Empire) used scholars from around the world ..

not all were Arabs. This is not a criticism .. just a statement of fact.

 

> Eventually of course, the forces of empire took over from those of

piety,

> which is pretty much what happens at some point with every religion.

 

Yep .. but when the folks in Europe got their heads out of their butts

they became competitive in the world of science.

 

End of Part I. :-) Butch

[Guest guest]

Hey Dave,

 

...

your post has driven me to write even more on this issue so those who

didn't like the first post should ZAP this one now. ;-)

 

[Dave:] Rather than answer point by point (which AIN’T even close to the

point of this list), I’ll just say that it truly amazes me how much you and

I agree on, not that we agree on everything, and I’ll admit right off that

your grasp of history is way better than mine. I mean, I’m an old hippy and

you’re an old cop. I don’t see how we could be much different than that. I

guess it just speaks to the fact that we’re both exceptional individuals ;-)

 

 

 

 

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