OT: Virginia Tech - A Predictable Tragedy

[Guest guest]

I don't even know why I waste my time watching TV!

 

[Dave:] You’re catching on. It’s not the place to find out what’s

happening, any more.

 

 

 

 

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Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/764 - Release 4/17/2007

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Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/764 - Release 4/17/2007

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[Guest guest]

This was a horrible massacre and my thoughts and prayers go to all the

families of the victims. But, we can't be Sunday morning quarterback

after the fact. Could this have been prevented? One will never know.

The shooter was referred to counseling, but one doesn't know if he ever

went. You can't force someone to go to counseling if they don't want to

go. Also, people write crazy and disturbing things all the time. The

majority never act on it. Unfortunately, this madman did. Are we going

to be the thought police and start arresting people for what they might

do even though they may never do something this heinous? Just the other

day, there was a guy on the news talking about how he enjoys watching

small children. He went into great detail about them. There's nothing

the police can do about this man. He is not a sexual offender. He has

never physically or mentally done anything to a child except expressed

his desires to a peer. He has said he will never act on them. He has a

clean record, upstanding citizen, etc. Should he be arrested? Should

he be labeled a sex offender even though he has never done a crime?

Yes, what he thinks is horrible and heinous. But, should he be locked

up because he might do something even though he's never done anything

wrong in his life? How do you prevent something like this? One will

never know right now if Cho Seung-Hui's actions could have been

prevented until maybe they find someone who actually knew him or was

close to him, but from all accounts, he was a loner. Those who tried to

reach out to him were snubbed. I'm not trying to condone his actions,

but it's easy afterwards to try and place blame when we, in the outside

world, don't know all the details except what comes out in the news.

Only the police and those in the investigation right now are trying to

piece together all the details. I say let them do their work before we

think we can figure it all out before they can.

 

Just my 2¢,

 

Nikie Brown

After The Rayne - Handmade Soaps & Bath Products

http://www.aftertherayne.com

nbrown

936-203-3188

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Sherry Bakko

Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:38 PM

 

Re: OT: Virginia Tech - A Predictable Tragedy

 

 

 

I just got done watching a TV special about this tragedy - and the news

report implied that this kid was 'normal' and his class mates didn't

see this coming - I don't even know why I waste my time watching TV!

 

Sherry

 

On Apr 17, 2007, at 4:14 PM, Butch Owen wrote:

 

> Hey y'all,

>

> Another senseless tragedy .. but this one was a predictable tragedy!

>

> The gunman at Virginia Tech, Cho Seung-Hu, gave every indication that

 

> he was a bomb about to explod .. his problematic behavior was known by

 

> his English professor and it was reported to the administration ..

> nothing was done to get help for him or remove him .. or whatever. It

 

> was so predictable that allegedly many of his fellow students

> discussed among themselves whether this guy could become a " school

> shooter " .

[Guest guest]

Howdy Nikie,

 

> This was a horrible massacre and my thoughts and prayers go to all the

> families of the victims. But, we can't be Sunday morning quarterback

> after the fact.

 

This is what the news agencies started immediately .. I watched CNN

International interview students within hours of the massacre and they

asked only leading questions .. they didn't know who the shooter was

then so their case was being built around how long it took the school

to notify students after the first shooting.

 

To say that one should not be a Monday Morning Quarterback is contrary

to the way news agencies and police and the politicians operate. I'm

not going to go into a long discussion here but being an ex-cop and

having a degree in Psychology and an MA in Education Administration ..

I'll say that profiling and using known data to predict is a part of

criminology and a very important part of academic administration!

 

Monday Morning Quarterbacking (Military calls it Lessons Learned

Reviews) occurs following an incident .. but in most cases they will

find that there was a lack of adequate sharing of information .. and a

lack of proper threat assessment prior to the incident .. and there is

someone who will catch the blame.

 

I beleive there will be some administrators and/or police officials

sacrificed due to this event. Even now local and sympathetic news

agencies are writing good reviews on the actions of the Campus Chief

of Police while others are questioning this or that .. the entire

thing is now beginning to be " tried " in the media. If Crazies like

Jackson and Sharpton get involved then all hell will break loose ..

it seems that many fear these two idiots!

 

When the sadness begins to fade the rage will rise up .. then the task

of choosing the sacrifical lambs will be made. That is just the way it

is in most every country. And it is what I was exposed to in half of

the actions I have been involved in during my professional career.

 

> Could this have been prevented? One will never know.

 

They will decide that it could have been prevented .. and there will

be agreement and disagreement on it .. from even law enforcement

agencies. The FBI and the " expert witnesses " (like behavioral

psychologists) will agree. There has already been an FBI " profiler "

and several shrinks on CNN International who have discussed this very

subject. The US Secret Service will disagree .. but they have made

exhaustive studies that claim it is not possible to " profile " such

people. I don't accept their studies and I believe they were given

" guidance " on what the outcome of the study should be. I have worked

with the FBI on cases before and I know that they are a different kind

of animal than the Secret Service.

 

> The shooter was referred to counseling, but one doesn't know if he ever

> went. You can't force someone to go to counseling if they don't want to

> go. Also, people write crazy and disturbing things all the time. The

> majority never act on it. Unfortunately, this madman did. Are we going

> to be the thought police and start arresting people for what they might

> do even though they may never do something this heinous? Just the other

> day, there was a guy on the news talking about how he enjoys watching

> small children. He went into great detail about them. There's nothing

> the police can do about this man. He is not a sexual offender. He has

> never physically or mentally done anything to a child except expressed

> his desires to a peer. He has said he will never act on them. He has a

> clean record, upstanding citizen, etc. Should he be arrested? Should

> he be labeled a sex offender even though he has never done a crime?

> Yes, what he thinks is horrible and heinous. But, should he be locked

> up because he might do something even though he's never done anything

> wrong in his life? How do you prevent something like this? One will

> never know right now if Cho Seung-Hui's actions could have been

> prevented until maybe they find someone who actually knew him or was

> close to him, but from all accounts, he was a loner. Those who tried to

> reach out to him were snubbed. I'm not trying to condone his actions,

> but it's easy afterwards to try and place blame when we, in the outside

> world, don't know all the details except what comes out in the news.

> Only the police and those in the investigation right now are trying to

> piece together all the details. I say let them do their work before we

> think we can figure it all out before they can.

 

I don't agree that this nut had not committed crimes .. he had

comitted more than one .. even if we don't count stalking. Nor do I

agree that proper authorities can do nothing to ensure someone gets

counseling .. creative managers and leaders can offer many legal

alternatives that will place a person in a position of having to go to

counseling or accepting some other form of adminstrative action ..

like removal from school. They had the ammunition to do it. They

will later be criticized for not doing it .. and the Chief of Police

will be criticized too .. he has a bit of valid criticism due him.

 

People management is all about helping folks to make the decisions you

want them to make because they should make them and having them think

its either their idea or its a danged good idea in any case.

 

The wrong that will be leveled on a number of folks will be due to

their lack of action .. and in my opinion it will be justified. If I

were in the Power Seat it would happen .. and I am sure others think

as I do.

 

We .. being the people on this list .. have no say in the final

outcome but we .. the people on this list .. can speculate and discuss

it as we wish unless the List Mom cuts it off .. which (in my opinion)

would not be a good thing to do now. Folks need to talk when things

like this go down .. again .. my opinion .. but I'm sticking with it!

 

> Just my 2¢,

 

And mine. I say that to me .. it would have been predictable .. and

if I had been Chief of Police of the university I can make a laundry

list of actions I would have taken that would have done much to

prevent this particular nut from causing harm. Also .. if I had been

Provost Marshal of a military post and I had known what this chief

knew .. and something like this went down .. the Commanding General

would have had my butt for supper .. my career would be finished!!

 

Check the next post I send .. the storm clouds are forming and it will

be a short time until the vultures will be circling overhead.

 

> Nikie Brown

> After The Rayne - Handmade Soaps & Bath Products

> http://www.aftertherayne.com

> nbrown

> 936-203-3188

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-( Butch http://www.AV-AT.com

 

> I just got done watching a TV special about this tragedy - and the news

> report implied that this kid was 'normal' and his class mates didn't

> see this coming - I don't even know why I waste my time watching TV!

>

> Sherry

>

> On Apr 17, 2007, at 4:14 PM, Butch Owen wrote:

>

>> Another senseless tragedy .. but this one was a predictable tragedy!

>>

>> The gunman at Virginia Tech, Cho Seung-Hu, gave every indication that

>>he was a bomb about to explod .. his problematic behavior was known by

>>his English professor and it was reported to the administration ..

>>nothing was done to get help for him or remove him .. or whatever. It

>>was so predictable that allegedly many of his fellow students

>>discussed among themselves whether this guy could become a " school

>>shooter " .

[Guest guest]

, " Nikie Brown " <nbrown

wrote:

>> The shooter was referred to counseling, but one doesn't know if he

ever

> went. You can't force someone to go to counseling if they don't

want to

> go. Also, people write crazy and disturbing things all the time.

The

> majority never act on it. Unfortunately, this madman did. Are we

going

> to be the thought police and start arresting people for what they

might

> do even though they may never do something this heinous?

 

 

 

The issue in this case is that he was a college kid. University

officials should have contacted his parents or quardians. The other

issue is that he had weapons on campus and he lived in a dormitory.

When parents send their kids to a college, the college is responsible

for protecting them. Cho's disturbed behavior had raised red flags

with a number of his teachers and he was removed from one class.

 

He had set a fire in a dorm and was reported to be stalking women.

 

On a college campus, this behavior should have caused some action to

remove him from the student population or to have him closely

observed. At the very least, his parents or guardians should have

been involved before it went this far.

 

Joanne

[Guest guest]

The search for perfect safety will inevitably

lead to perfect tyranny.

 

Nikkie is right, we cannot prevent this sort

of thing totally.

 

BUT: we might start by looking at some real

culprits, and I don't mean guns.

I mean SSRI anti-depressants. Work like a

charm for some people and turn others into

homo/suicidal maniacs.

 

Visit Dr Anne Blake Tracey's website, please.

http://drugawareness.org

 

Ien in the Kootenays

http://freegreenliving.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Are we going

> to be the thought police and start arresting people for what they might

> do even though they may never do something this heinous?

 

 

 

At the very least, his parents or guardians should have

been involved before it went this far.¶

 

[Dave:] The first point is totally valid, and a proper worry these days.

As for the second, although I agree that someone should have intervened a

long time ago, there’s a better-than-even chance that his parents or

guardians had a lot to do with why he is who he is. Or was.

 

 

 

 

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Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/764 - Release 4/17/2007

4:43 AM

 

 

 

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Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.2/766 - Release 4/18/2007

7:39 AM

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The man was SICK. Mental & emotional sickness is not given the same benefit

that physical illness gets. There is still so much negativity attached to

this area in this time and place. He suffered, his victims suffered, their

families suffered, our nation is suffering. How do we address this problem?

What's the fix?

 

[Dave:] Yeah, I agree with this, too. And I don’t know the fix, except

that I don’t think we currently have an atmosphere that’s conducive to a

fix. I say that because I think the fix is spiritual, not medical or

psychological or anything that you can successfully legislate. I don’t know

if this particular guy even could have been fixed. I just know that extreme

elements are not the disease, they are symptoms. First we have to recognize

the disease, and then we can make progress toward the cure. In the

meantime, it’s mostly snake oil.

 

 

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Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.1/764 - Release 4/17/2007

4:43 AM

 

 

 

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Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.5.2/766 - Release 4/18/2007

7:39 AM

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Butch Owen " <butchbsi

wrote:

>I don't agree that this nut had not committed crimes .. he had

>comitted more than one .. even if we don't count stalking. Nor do I

>agree that proper authorities can do nothing to ensure someone gets

>counseling .. creative managers and leaders can offer many legal

>alternatives that will place a person in a position of having to go

to

>counseling or accepting some other form of adminstrative action ..

>like removal from school. They had the ammunition to do it. They

>will later be criticized for not doing it .. and the Chief of Police

>will be criticized too .. he has a bit of valid criticism due him.

-

Agreed. As this things unfolds, one thing is clear--no one was

surprised that had encountered this kid.

 

This was a college. He had committed enough acts to be expelled prior

to this. The college allowed him to live on campus. The university

could very easily have required that he leave, and if they chose to

let him return they could have demanded documentation from mental

health professionals before allowing him to return. They also could

have insisted he remain in counseling, and require him to check in on

a regular basis with a school counselor to monitor his progress.

 

As for prozac, medications and such. Personally, Prozac saved my

life. The sensationalized cases of there being a problem does not

negate the thousands that have been helped by it. There will always

be instances where a medication that helps some people is harmful to

others. There are people that can die from pennicillin, but it is a

very important medication. That's why these meds are prescription

only. If it turns out he was not on meds, the issue will be " why

not? " clearly he was suffering from some serious problems. If he was,

people will blame the meds. People don't get on meds unless there is

a problem, like many other medical situations, a doctor may try

several different treatments before they get the right one. This

issue has nothing to do with addiction and such. Tieing the two

together only provides those in need of help an excuse to avoid it.

Enough soapboxing and OT.

 

Get back to oils and herbs and such.

Joanne