OT: 9/11 - We Must NOT Forget ** Remembering Those Lost

September 11, 2007

Howdy Zo, Chris .. other good folks ..

No, we will not forget....ever.

> Zo

>

> > About to take a moment of silence in memory of all who were lost in the

> > terrorist attacks on 09/11/01, including my family member and hero,

> > Firefighter Scott Kopytko of NYFD Engine Company 33.

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:44-great-jones.jpg

> >

> > We will never forget!

> >

> > Chris (list mom)

> > http://www.alittleolfactory.com

>

I hope that you are right .. that we will not forget. I hope that we

(citizens of the world who prefer democratic to theocratic government) will

remember without having to be reminded again by those who still plan to

replace Freedom with Shariah because of their belief that Secular

Democracies separate Man from God .. that Liberal ideas and adherence

to Laws of Man are an insult to the Creator because they allow mankind to

behave in a manner that they believe is not in accordance with God's Laws ..

as dictated to Mohammed.

Keep in mind that it is not only the Islamic Fundamentalist who believes

that Theocracy is superior to Democracy .. there are other religious groups

(some in the USA) who believe this. The difference between the Islamists

and the others (to date) is that the others are not willing (or able) to

conduct activities that could bring this about .. but the Islamists are both

willing and able .. if the world allows it.

Since returning to the USA (and semi retirement) in May I have tried to

forget all I knew about international politics and Islam and focus on

American domestic problems .. and on fishing and taking care of my new home

and my family. But more and more I am seeing that this is difficult .. its

like trying to live on a deserted island.

I understand that this subject has nothing to do with the main themes of

this News Group .. but I am comfortable discussing it today of all days ..

and I have made sure to precede the Subject Line with OT - Off Topic. Those

who do not want to read about Islam should delete this post now .. those who

continue to read might disagree with what I have written .. it is their

right to do so. But I feel a need to write this now and like complaints

about posts warning of the dangers of dealing with Young Living .. those who

might protest what I have written here will probably get little support from

others. What I am writing is in no way Politically Correct .. but Political

Correctness is often used to camouflage or shroud in darkness .. and to

muzzle those who would talk about subjects that need to see the light of

day.

I don't claim to be an expert on Islam nor do I have any credible answers

for how to deal with Islamic Fundamentalism/Terrorism .. I do, however, have

some knowledge of Political Islam .. which is in almost all cases an

Islamic Fundamentalist wolf dressed in an expensive suit and tie making the

rounds at a cocktail party. It is not just the bomb of the Islamic

Terrorist dressed in Arabic garb we must fear .. he is probably less

dangerous than his more polished ally .. and he is easier to defeat than

this ally .. Political Islam. The Political Islamic leader is normally a

well educated professional .. a medical doctor or engineer, etc. He is

normally a wealthy person who has all the proper connections in all the

proper places. He smiles and plays the diplomatic game while directing the

actions of his soldiers .. those who are willing to die for the goals of

Islam. Political Islam shares the same goals as the Islamic Terrorist ..

they just use different means to achieve these goals. Due in large part to

declining birthrates and labor shortages in Europe, doors have opened wide

to the Third World and Emerging Market countries. Many European officials

are now beginning to realize that they have allowed a potentially dangerous

change in the demographics of Europe. Those who are immigrating have a much

higher birth rate and in time, using the system that Islamism detests and

the system that is not found in their own countries (Democracy) they will

be able to dictate policy to these hated Liberal governments. Even now

they have a voice loud enough that it can not be contained .. and in most

cases they openly speak out against the system that allows them to voice

their complaints against the system .. the system of Democracy, Freedom and

Human Rights! They are often successful in recruiting restless

European youth to support their cause of the destruction of Democratic

governments. Unless they pull a rabbit out of the political hat, it is

probably too late for Europe to deal with Political Islam .. it is too well

entrenched now and any attempts to dislodge it normally result in rioting

and burning. In order to bring the situation under control .. to stop

anarchy in its purest form .. its a norm of the European authorities (based

on the will of the people) to capitulate .. to honor the desires of the

Islamic minorities (who will eventually become the majority). This

gives Political Islam a boost .. it strengthens their will and shows the

weakness of the systems they want to eventually control. Americans must be

wary of Political Islam! This is not a statement based on paranoia .. it is

based on reality .. not probability .. certainty!

I don't claim to be an expert on Islam but it was once my duty to immerse

myself in the culture and learn as much as I could about it .. and I have

continued to give much attention to the subject over the last 20 + years. I

have dozens of Muslim friends (and a couple of Islamic friends) who have

proven their sincere friendship with me more than once .. I trust them and

would go to their defense if need be. I can say the same about maybe

a half dozen Western friends. If not for now having a wife and son .. I

would still be satisfied and feel comfortable living in Turkey. In fact, I

would probably feel as safe .. perhaps more safe there than I do here in the

USA. There were times in Turkey where my butt pucker factor was high .. but

based on the types of crimes against persons that are so common here in the

USA, my butt pucker factor is at an all time high and will probably remain

so until I become accustomed to life here .. again. I feel better prepared

to deal with and defend myself from those who commit crimes for ideological

reasons than I do from those who commit senseless crimes for personal gain.

I am not prepared to expose my family to either of these scenarios so I now

live where I believe I can more easily defend them. If it appears that I am

paranoid .. nothing could be further from the truth. I and many other

people I know understand the realities .. we have seen the elephant .. and

when one has been close to the carnage that results from an elephant

stampede .. we firmly believe in the existence of elephants and though we do

not fear elephants we do all we can to avoid being in the path of the next

stampede.

I have read the Koran (in English) and have had discussions with Islamic

scholars .. but that does not make me an expert on Islam. I am a

Conservative American who believes in a form or government that Islamists

see as being too Liberal .. Democracy. I spent 26 + years living and

working in Islamic and Muslim countries .. some populated with hard core

Islamists and others with mostly moderate Muslims. I do believe that I

understand the thinking of the average Moslem better than I do the average

American and of the Islamist almost as well as I understand the thinking of

the average American .. still I do not consider myself as being an expert on

Islam. Though I was never even tempted to accept Islam as my personal

religion, I learned to adapt to Islamic norms .. except for daily visits to

the mosque for prayer - very few of my Turkish Muslim friends did this

either. I understood, respected and participated in their religious

holidays .. and because I was accepted by most as one who was not a " threat "

to Islam, I could comfortably and openly discuss .. even debate .. Islam

and Shariah with Muslim friends .. some supported Shariah .. most did not.

Most felt that Shariah would victimize them as well as those who were not

Muslim, and they believed that the Islamists would never stop trying to

destroy the West and Democracy. I know enough about Islam to state that

moderate Muslims want an environment where Islam is a relatively important

part of their life .. and Islamists want an environment where life is a part

of Islam .. and rules of behavior are dictated by the Koran and Shariah ..

not by the Laws of Man. Islamists believe that Islam has been under attack

from outside (Crusaders, Zionists and the Liberal West) for centuries ..

and now from inside by moderate, secular Muslims. They are NOT totally

wrong in this belief because just in the last half century they have given

the West reason to be at odds with Islam (but not necessarily with Muslims)

and Secular, Democratic government such as that found in Turkey is

definitely a threat to the ideal Islamic way of life. They believe that

constant Jihad is a sacred duty .. directed by God .. and that Islam will

eventually win the battle. They believe that sacrifice is required to win

this battle and that sacrifice is the ultimate service to God .. they do not

fear death .. they welcome it.

It is difficult to wage war against an enemy who believes that killing you

glorifies himself in the eyes of God .. and dying while trying to kill you

ensures him a fantastic afterlife. Past wars have been won or lost based on

the ability or inability of the government perpetuating the war to continue

to wage war. Battle with Islamic Extremism is different because the

enemy has the power to wage war with their own government. Some of those

governments walk on egg shells to preclude this from happening .. and become

unwilling supporters of what they fear could bring them down. Even some

Western governments have made unofficial treaties with Islamic Extremists ..

they join the rest of the world in publicly condemning Terrorist atrocities,

etc., but are willing to turn a blind eye to the presence of those who plan

these activities in exchange for what they see as local security .. hoping

the Islamic Extremists will not attack their own countries. What they

(most people?) don't want to accept is that this is a war against the world

... Islamic Fundamentalist Extremism against the world. It is a war that

began many hundreds or years ago .. and has intensified in the last 60 years

or so. It is not going to go away .. there is no room for diplomacy in this

war. Compromise is not an option .. it is a weakness.

Many intelligent and experienced people are working hard to find ways to win

the conflict in Iraq and the larger war with Islamic Extremists and they are

not just focusing on military actions as the means to do this. American and

International Liberal and Conservative Think Tanks that have managed to

avoid political partisanship are working hard on a strategic level. At

country level, General Petraeus (a PhD) and the Liberal and Conservative

multi-national members of the Civilian and Military advisory team he has put

together (most are PhD's in a wide range of disciplines .. some Hawks and

some Doves), are working at full steam seeking to find solutions but despite

their constant and dedicated attention to the mission, they have no

magic answers .. yet. The amazing thing is that each of the elected

members of the US Congress .. especially those who are seeking the

Presidency .. and you and me and the guy next door claim to have the

solution to the problem.

What all of these characters fail to consider is how and when and why this

war began. Though petrodollars and illegal drugs have become a major source

for financing this war .. the philosophy that drives the Islamic Extremist

to battle was a part of their culture long before petrol became a major

commodity and long before there were laws restricting any form of drugs.

The average Westerner does not understand the thought processes of those who

wish to destroy us. I will send another post that might enlighten some

folks as top the character of our enemy .. though it will probably bore

many. Sometimes it is more comfortable to ignore a problem than it is to

face it .. or to try to understand it. The Islamic Terrorists and

Political Islam are not going to allow us to ignore them .. or to forget ..

so we have an obligation to try to understand what we are facing.

Again .. I hope we will not forget 9/11 and I hope we will not be reminded

to not forget by another 9/11 type atrocity .. but I believe we will be.

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch

*Forget 9/11 At Our Peril

*By Cal Thomas

Thursday, September 6, 2007

Throughout our young history, Americans have been admonished to " Remember

the Alamo, " " Remember the Maine " and " Remember Pearl Harbor. " These

remembrances - and others - were for the purpose of motivating the public to

fight on until an enemy was vanquished. When victory was assured, the memory

faded into history.

Now, as we approach the sixth anniversary of Sept. 11, there are suggestions

that we should begin to forget the worst terrorist incident in America's

history. Recently, a front-page story in The New York Times suggested it is

becoming too much of a burden to remember the attack, that nothing new can

be said about it and that, perhaps, Sept. 11 " fatigue " may be setting in.

Charlene Correia, a nursing supervisor from Acushnet, Mass., is quoted as

saying, " I may sound callous, but doesn't grieving have a shelf life? We're

very sorry and mournful that people died, but there are living people. Let's

wind it down. "

Yes, 9/11 forces us to be serious, not only about those who died and why

they died at the hands of religious fanatics, but also so that we won't

forget that it could very well happen again and many of today's living might

end up as yesterday's dead. That is the purpose of remembering 9/11, not to

engage in perpetual mourning. The war goes on and to be reminded of 9/11

serves as the ultimate protection against forgetfulness. Terrorists have not

forgotten 9/11. Tape of the Twin Towers is used on jihadist Websites for the

purpose of recruiting new " martyrs. "

What's the matter with some people? Does remembering not only 9/11 but the

stakes in this world war interfere too much with our pursuit of money,

things and pleasure? Serious times require serious thought and serious

action. In our frivolous times, full of trivialities and irrelevancies, to

be serious is to abandon self-indulgence for survival, entertainment for the

stiffened spine.

" Few Americans give much thought anymore on Dec. 7 that Pearl Harbor was

attacked, " says the Times writer, who goes on to mention Nov. 22, 1963 (the

date of JFK's assassination), the Kent State shootings on May 4, 1970 and

the Oklahoma City bombing on April 19, 1995. The difference between those

tragic events and 9/11 is that Kennedy's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, is

dead, as is Timothy McVeigh, and the Vietnam War ended long ago. While all

of the 9/11 hijackers died, their ideological and religious colleagues are

plotting new attacks in a war that is far from over.

" Why didn't we see 9/11 coming? " was a question frequently asked in the

aftermath of that terrorist attack. And the answer should be, because we

forgot the attacks preceding that one, or brushed them off as

inconsequential aberrations so we could get back to watching the stock

market go up and obsess about Bill Clinton's pants coming down. By not

remembering those earlier attacks, the reasons behind them and the

intentions of the terrorists and those who trained and incited them, we put

ourselves in further jeopardy.

Sept. 11 should not be remembered for maudlin, ghoulish and certainly not

for nostalgic reasons. Unlike those other mostly forgotten or no longer

observed dates, this one is key to defending ourselves from a future attack

and further disasters. Not to remember 9/11, is to forget what brought it

about. That can lead to a lowering of our guard and a false sense of

security, the conditions that existed immediately prior to that awful day

six years ago.

Indiana University history professor John Bodnar is asked in the Times story

what might happen on Sept. 11 100 years from now. He replies, " It's

conceivable that it could be virtually forgotten. "

It might be forgotten - or relegated to a " Jeopardy " answer - but only if we

win the war against Islamofascism. If we don't,* 9/11 will stand as a day of

infamy with consequences to humanity far worse than Dec. 7, 1941. *

*Cal Thomas is co-author (with Bob Beckel) of the forthcoming book, " Common

Ground: How to Stop the Partisan War That is Destroying

America<http://www.amazon.com/Common-Ground-Partisan-Destroying-America/dp/00612\

36349/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/105-9608496-2950056?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1187876995 & sr=8-3>

" *

- - - - - - - - - - -

The New York Post

On Line Edition

*September 11, 2007* -- This morning, for the sixth time, Americans will

gather - at Ground Zero, the Pentagon and in the Penn sylvania field where

United 93 was forced down, short of its target, by heroic passengers - to

remember the grim events of 9/11.

Once again, at Ground Zero, family members will mourn loved ones who died

when al Qaeda's jihadist suicide bombers toppled the Twin Towers of the

World Trade Center.

In some respects, it seems like an eternity since the attacks. In others -

especially for those who still grieve - it feels like just yesterday.

The ceremonies, with their speeches and the now-ritualistic reading of the

names of those killed, have become sadly familiar; the rhetoric almost

numbing.

At the same time, America understands that it's important to move forward,

even as the nation preserves the memory of what happened.

This year, the commemoration at Ground Zero has taken on a somewhat

disturbing tone with the complaints about Rudy Giuliani being invited to

speak. Though he's done so at each of the previous ceremonies, this year

he's running for president.

But again, the fact remains that New York has rebounded from that awful day:

After too-lengthy bureaucratic delays, Ground Zero is rising anew.

Businesses that fled Lower Manhattan in the wake of the attacks are

returning, and the area has been reborn in its longtime role as America's

financial center.

Residential life has also sprung up.

And the nation at large has recovered and moved on, aided by a new sense of

vigilance and urgency about the ongoing threat from international terror.

Most important, America has not suffered a repeat of 9/11, or anything close

to it - despite successful, if smaller, al Qaeda attacks in Britain, Spain

and elsewhere.

Which is why Americans - despite lingering doubts about the war in Iraq -

can't afford to become complacent about the War on Terror.

Bitter partisan division cannot be allowed to undermine the nation's

commitment to pursue the terrorists and eradicate them.

We'll repeat: *Moving forward does not mean forgetting what happened on that

tragic day*. On the contrary, it means re-affirming the task of waging the

ongoing war against terror, a war that America did not begin, but which it

must end - by winning.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

September 11, 2007

The Washington Times

Almost everyone remembers where they were on a bright, comfortable Tuesday

morning six years ago today, when 19 men dispatched by al Qaeda leader Osama

bin Laden and armed with boxcutters brought the reality of jihadist terror

to our shores. Five terrorists, one pilot and four " muscle hijackers " (used

to subdue passengers) hijacked three planes; American Airlines Flight 11 and

United Airlines Flight 175, were flown into the World Trade Center, and

American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon. A fourth plane, United

Airlines Flight 93, carrying four hijackers and apparently headed for the

U.S. Capitol, crashed into a hillside in southwestern Pennsylvania after a

fierce struggle between the terrorists and heroic passengers who stormed the

cockpit.

During a period of less than two-and-a-half hours, ending at 10:28 A.M. when

the second World Trade Center tower collapsed, nearly 3,000 Americans and

foreign nationals were killed — many dying on impact when the planes

crashed. On some of the planes, passengers and flight attendants were

stabbed to death; as many as 200 people jumped to their deaths from the top

floors of the World Trade Center to escape the infernos raging around them.

More than 300 firemen and paramedics died in an effort to rescue people

trapped inside the World Trade Center.

Six years later, the images of that horrible day remain etched in our

memories: the chilling reports that United Airlines and American Airlines

were each missing two planes; the gaping hole where Flight 77 struck the

Pentagon and set it on fire; the television pictures of Flights 11 and 175

hitting the World Trade Center and the collapse of both towers; and watching

pedestrians near Wall Street running away from a massive cloud of dust from

the collapse of Twin Towers. Some of the most sobering sounds from that day

were the recorded telephone calls from the brave people on the doomed

airliners, passengers describing the hijackings and announcing, on Flight

93, their intentions to die fighting the hijackers for control of the plane.

For a brief period after September 11, Americans were more or less united in

their determination to defeat the terrorists who attacked us that morning.

But six years later, Americans are deeply divided as to the nature of the

threat and the danger it poses to our nation. Many Americans, especially in

the Democratic Party and on the political left, believe President Bush is

exaggerating the magnitude of the terrorist threat — which is why we have

such heated debate over issues such as electronic intercepts of terrorist

suspects' conversations, interrogation methods, " secret " CIA prisons, the

Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay.

It drives his political adversaries wild, but Mr. Bush says that all of

these controversial measures help explain why we have not been attacked

again since September 11. Within weeks of the attacks, Congress passed and

Mr. Bush signed into law the Patriot Act, the chief feature of which was

breaking down the " wall " instituted by the Clinton administration. That wall

made it nearly impossible for intelligence agencies and law enforcement to

exchange information in terrorism-related investigations. Since September

11, more than 200 persons have been convicted in U.S. courts on

terrorism-related charges, and law enforcement officials say that the

legislation has been essential in helping them break up terrorist cells in

places such as Virginia, New York, Oregon, Washington and Michigan.

The danger in citing the lack of a subsequent attack on American soil as

evidence for the success of administration policies is obvious: An attack

could happen at any time, and* there is no definitive way to know whether we

haven't been hit again because the enemy is taking its time or because we

have been much more vigilant for the past six years. *It is equally clear

that, if America had been hit again, Mr. Bush would bear much of the blame.

Whatever the reason, we have been spared the carnage experienced in such

places as London, Madrid, Baghdad, Amman and Bali during the past six years.

That is why America must remain evermore vigilant.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Uncle Osama Wants You

By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Monday, September 10, 2007 4:20 PM PT

*War On Terror:* The co-chairmen of the 9/11 Commission are buying the

Democratic line that the war in Iraq is a diversion from the war on terror

and a recruiting tool for al-Qaida . But it's the bad guys who are less

safe.

------------------------------

In a Washington Post op-ed, 9/11 Commission chairman Thomas Kean and vice

chairman Lee Hamilton ponder the question of whether we are safer now than

we were on that tragic day.

They conclude the war in Iraq has made us less safe.

*They are wrong.*

" No conflict " they opine, " drains more time, attention, blood and treasure

and support from our worldwide counterterrorism efforts than the war in

Iraq. It has become a powerful recruiting and training tool for al-Qaida. "

Considering the rapid demise of al-Qaida leaders, the terror group probably

isn't offering a retirement plan, though.

Omaf Farouq, leader of al-Qaida in Southeast Asia, was one of those drawn to

the jihadist cause in Iraq. In September 2006, he was killed by British

troops in a firefight in Basra. In an audiotape released late that month,

the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq said 4,000 such recruits had been killed in

Iraq since Iraq was liberated, including leaders like Omar Farouq and Abu

Musab al-Zarqawi.

What Kean and Hamilton fail to comprehend is that *Islamofascists and

al-Qaida will always find excuses to wage war on civilization and the West.

*

We weren't in Iraq on 9/11. We were in Saudi Arabia protecting that country

after Saddam, the world's most prolific killer of Muslims, invaded Kuwait.

Osama bin Laden used the presence of infidel soldiers on holy Saudi soil as

an excuse, and a recruiting tool.

The jihadists always will have an excuse, whether it be the existence of

Israel or the excesses of Western culture or a newspaper publishing

offensive cartoons. In his latest videotape, bin Laden warned about Western

corporations and global warming. Do Kean and Hamilton suggest we ratify

Kyoto to prevent the next attack?

It is al-Qaida that has made Iraq a central front. Al-Qaida's No. 2 man,

Ayman al-Zawahiri, in a letter to the leaders of al-Qaida in Iraq, said:

" Victory of Islam will never take place until a Muslim state is established

in the manner of the Prophet in the heart of the Islamic world " — a

description that Iraq fits nicely.

" The jihad movement is growing and rising, " Zawahiri wrote to the late Abu

Musab al-Zarqawi in October 2005. " Now it is waging a great historic battle

in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and even within the Crusader's own homes. "

Zawahiri had a four-part plan: " The first stage: expel the Americans from

Iraq, " he wrote. " The second stage: establish an Islamic authority . . .

over as much territory as you can spread its power in Iraq . . . in order to

fill the void stemming from the departure of the Americans. " Except we

aren't going anywhere.

Kean and Hamilton claim we " have not been persuasive in enlisting the energy

and the sympathy of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims against the extremist

threat. "

Well, we have persuaded the Iraqi people. Even in the absence of a dominant

and unified central government, *Sunni and Shiite tribes have united against

al-Qaida in Iraq to defend their new-found freedom from terror in Anbar and

throughout Iraq. *

If the war in Iraq is a recruiting tool for al-Qaida, what will those

1.3billion Muslims make of an al-Qaida defeat at the hand of free

Iraqis and an

America that refuses to run as Osama predicted?

*Fanaticism has no trouble finding recruits.* Imperial Japan had more

kamikazes willing to die than they had planes. Al-Qaida can use Iraq as a

recruiting poster if they want. *But if they are joining al-Qaida to see the

world, the only part they will likely see is a six-foot plot of free Iraqi

soil.*

September 11, 2007

Howdy Butch....getting caught up on getting the new place in shape?

Zo

-

" Butch Owen " <butchowen

Tuesday, September 11, 2007 2:59 PM

OT: 9/11 - We Must NOT Forget ** Remembering Those

Lost