OT: What We Are Up Against: The Ideology of Those Who Threaten Us

[Guest guest]

Seconded. That article was fascinating, and it scared me. It scares me to

think how determined such a large group of people is, to take away the

freedoms of countries and individuals all over the world. And it scares me

to think that our arguments *for* those freedoms can never, ever convince

the people who look at the world and think mandated Islam is the answer to

all its ills.

 

And Butch, I don't know about others on the list, but I for one would really

enjoy hearing your analysis of what's going on in Turkey now, and what it

will likely mean for the region in the future. Um, you know, if you're

bored and have nothing else to do, of course... ;-)

 

Thanks for the read,

Susan

 

 

On 9/11/07, David Lambert <dlmbrt wrote:

Butch,

 

Just wanted to say thanks for an important post. An IMPORTANT post! The

tremendous variety and erudition of you folks is why I consider this one of

the most valuable lists there is.

 

Dave

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Howdy Dave,

 

Butch,

>

> Just wanted to say thanks for an important post. An IMPORTANT post! The

> tremendous variety and erudition of you folks is why I consider this one

> of

> the most valuable lists there is.

>

 

Welcome you are for sure .. no doubt this is a valuable list .. and I agree

that knowing what motivates one's enemy better prepares one to defeat that

enemy. Tips to police from the average Joe Blow who thinks something is

suspicious can be more valuable in the fight against the bad guys than

routine police patrols. Its intelligence that has allowed America to stay

ahead of them since 9/11 and a good part of that intelligence

information came from those who work down where the rubber meets the road.

 

If one thinks s/he sees something that smells and then doesn't report it ..

if and when the crap hits the fan they will have the rest of their lives to

regret their not getting involved.

 

 

 

> Dave

>

 

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> It scares me to think how determined such a large group of

> people is, to take away the freedoms of countries and

> individuals all over the world.

 

[Dave]: Unfortunately those same words also apply to our own government

now. I for one do NOT believe that Islamists had anything to do with 9/11,

but we probably don't want to get into that here.

 

> And Butch, I don't know about others on the list, but I for

> one would really enjoy hearing your analysis of what's going

> on in Turkey now, and what it will likely mean for the region

> in the future.

 

[Dave]: Me, too. It's difficult and important for westerners to understand

Islam. I have had a number of Muslim friends, and have the highest respect

for them. There are those who twist every religion into an evil parody.

Look at the guys who bomb clinics for Jesus.

 

 

 

Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.14/1001 - Release 9/11/2007

1:37 PM

[Guest guest]

Hey Butch, Dave . . .

 

I also read the article in the NYT and found it provocative and informative.

Extremists of any ilk are mired in what I believe is the biggest failure of

extremism . . . The inability to look inside and help change those around

you by changing yourself. The loss on 9-11 was horrific and we were all

affected, many of us personally with the loss of someone close.

 

Berman, in other writings, suggests that the Iraq war split the movement of

his generation greatly, with many now deeply aware of the dramatic excesses

of the regime of Sadaam Hussein, as well as the potential negative

consequences if such a dictator remained in power. Nonetheless, he and other

'68 activists were deeply concerned by the arguments offered by the Bush

Administration. Though his fellow activists were split, Berman argues that

the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan and 2003 invasion of Iraq were justified by

the doctrine of " liberal interventionism " - intervention to safeguard and

promote liberal democratic freedoms. Some have grouped Berman with

neo-conservatives for these positions. Others believe he is more closely

aligned with traditional liberal internationalism because of his disdain for

the neo-conservative policies of George W. Bush. Like many others grappling

with the myriad questions of the day, he is hard to classify. He says, " But

who will speak of the sacred and the secular, of the physical world and the

spiritual world? Who will defend liberal ideas against the enemies of

liberal ideas? Who will defend liberal principles in spite of liberal

society's every failure? President George W. Bush, in his speech to Congress

a few days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, announced that he was going to

wage a war of ideas. He has done no such thing. He is not the man for that. "

I couldn't agree more.

 

The profound effect of 9-11 led to US invasion of Iraq and a subsequent

broadening division of American opinions and beliefs. Those who died on

9-11 might never have supported these subsequent US policies, purported on

their behalf, and indeed, many of their surviving families are now vocal,

crying " not in our name " , referring to the continuation of what many have

proven to be an illegal war and certainly failed policies.

 

We now face further tragedy piled upon the tragedy of 9-11 with close to

4,000 of our young men and women dead and over 90% of our brave, wounded

soldiers returning home with grave injuries, their lives forever diminished.

A snapshot portrait of ten of those who rallied to the call after 9-11 by

offering their war service is presented by HBO, hosted by James Gandolfini

who has visited Iraq many times. The sacrifice of American troops in a

failed policy to react to 9-11 by invading Iraq and failing to " wage a war

of ideas " as promised and engaging the real terrorists does nothing to

rectify the events of 9-11, and the debate escalates in Congress and around

the country, further dividing us and shoving other important issues under

the carpet. I won't litanize those urgencies; it will only depress us more.

 

 

I urge you all to watch this documentary with your heart and mind to perhaps

help generate the needed " war of ideas " to move us out of the quagmire.

http://tinyurl.com/2bbmc4 You'll also find it on HBO this week.

 

We have much to mourn today.

 

Be Well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

http://www.aromaconnection.org

" Give thanks for a little and you will find a lot. " Hausa Saying from

Nigeria

 

 

>

>

> On Behalf Of David Lambert

> Tuesday, September 11, 2007 1:16 PM

>

> RE: OT: What We Are Up Against: The

> Ideology of Those Who Threaten Us

>

> Butch,

>

> Just wanted to say thanks for an important post. An

> IMPORTANT post! The tremendous variety and erudition of you

> folks is why I consider this one of the most valuable lists there is.

>

> Dave

>

[Guest guest]

¶ Extremists of any ilk are mired in what I believe is the biggest failure

of extremism . . . The inability to look inside and help change those around

you by changing yourself.

 

[Dave]: Now that, I think, is a profound statement.

 

 

 

Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.14/1001 - Release 9/11/2007

1:37 PM