Guest guest Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Howdy Carol .. and other good folks. :-) Lemme start my harange by saying that American politicians .. and a small percentage of American citizens .. are two faced on most issues .. this one is no exception. This subject has come up on this list each year since the list came into being. ;-) Nobody is going to succeed in banning celebrations of Christmas or Ramadan or Rosh Hasana or any other religious holiday. They might stop the expenditure of public funds for such celebrations .. and I will agree with that .. but it must be dealt with on a case by case basis. States Rights ... the Feds can't tell the states as much as some folks think they can .. and there is such a thing as Community Norms .. states have problems dictating to communities who wish to stand up for the desires of their citizens. Unless there is a public law with provisions for punishment .. states and communities can do as they wish. The Feds were not successful in their efforts to demand 55 MPH speed limits some years back .. some states told them to cram it .. but they did this knowing that the Feds would give them no highway construction funding because of their refusal to go along with the program. > Ok, this is getting too much, I haven't read the Chicago Times > newspaper, but my inbox is over flowing today with news that school > districts in Oak Lawn, Illinois, are considering banning holiday > traditions that are offensive to Muslims. The decisions will be made in > the next few weeks and will be rendered by the principals of five > Ridgeland schools. > It is about imperfect perfectionists who push Political Correctness at the expense of truth and allowing the tail to wag the dog. It is about the Globalization of the World and the Liberalization of America .. which is the goal of a small number of disgruntled elements who are focused on small issues they can not affect .. or as they see it .. correct .. so they turn to other issues and try to make changes so they don't feel totally useless. I can think of thousands of causes that would be more worthy of these people's efforts .. here in America and abroad. Each night I catch a bit of the news and sometimes watch the specials .. sick I am over how parents and law enforcement folks have their hands tied by ridiculous laws that are in place to supposedly protect privacy. Last night there was a special on the Criminally Insane. Folks can be determined to be so but can't be incarcerated for treatment unless they volunteer to be .. or until they kill their parents or shoot up a school. Parents can't even be notified if their minor child is pregnant. These are but two of dozens situations that bother me and if I had the time and energy to be an activist ... there would be no shortage of just causes. Its about the ACLU supporting a mother whose 14 year old son was expelled from a school that had a dress code because he had not cut his hair since he was 4 years old .. because .. she believed in a passage from the OLD TESTAMENT that said one should not round the corners of the head. In this case the ACLU said that religious beliefs should not be cause to deny the child an education. So even the ACLU will use the right of one to practice their religion IN PUBLIC at the expense of others .. IF .. it serves their cause of disrupting the established system. That case opens the door to change dress codes in other schools if one claims that wearing a necktie is contrary to their religion .. as is commonly believed to be associated with the Shiia branch of Islam .. and as practiced in Iran. I agree that religion should not be allowed to interfere with a child's education .. but I don't agree that every school has to change their norms to suit the disgruntled .. that child could have received an education in another school and odds are slim that the child will be accepted in the present school by other students that do cut their hair. So .. the ACLU has won a case .. a feather in their cap .. and the losers were the school and the student. One more angry, victimized .. perhaps bullied .. student will be in the classroom .. and that is not a good situation. In many Islamic countries a Christian or a Jew can't openly practice their religion .. I've spent Christmas in the Islamic World when we had to hide in corners to celebrate .. we could almost understand how the Jews must have felt when hiding in Nazi Germany. Even in Secular Turkey back in the 70s we had to put our Christmas Trees in a location that would not allow folks from the street to see them because MAYBE one or two fanatics might decide to attack us. Now the Turks all put up Christmas Trees and Santa Claus is on every corner .. reasons? Christmas is considered to be Noel (the New Year ... Yeni Yil) and Santa Claus is Noel Baba (Father Noel) plus St. Nicholas was born and practiced in Southern Turkey. So here is a country populated by 98% Moslems that is becoming more tolerant and America .. which is predominantly Christian/Catholic (some can deny truth but this statement is true) that is becoming more sensitive toward the feelings of non-Christians to a point that they are not tolerant and will deny the right to openly celebrate a holiday (be it religious or traditional) to the majority .. the tail wagging the dog. The percentage of Americans who believe in God and a Hereafter, etc., is (according to many polls) pretty high .. the percentage who believe that Jesus is the Son of God is lower but still pretty high. The percentage of Americans who MIGHT give some religious significance to Christmas (outside their annual pilgrimage to the church for Christmas) is (in my opinion) pretty low .. but the percentage who see Christmas as being a super-nice, traditional way to celebrate and bring family and friends together .. and give their children some nice memories of life with Mama and Daddy .. is pretty high. My memories of Christmas are some of the cherished I have .. even though ion the early years there was little money so no commercial gifts to be had .. but we celebrated with family and it was a good thing. The percentage of so-called practicing Moslems who participate in their holidays IAW the dogma of Islam is about as low as that of so-called practicing Christians and Jews. Few modern Moslems will refuse alcohol or pork when they are out of sight of their peers .. but this also applies to the hypocritical behavior of the Suthran Baptists I was raised with. We who consider ourselves to be members/practitioners of a particular religion will know how often we observe the dogmatic rules of our religion .. and when was the last time we visited a church, synagogue or mosque .. aside from the beginning of a religious holiday where maybe our neighbors might have expected us to show up .. or to attend a funeral. When governments demand Secular behavior then governments are practicing a religion of a different kind! The Founding Fathers never said there should be a separation between religion and state .. they said that the government will not enact any laws that favor one religion over the other .. what they were saying was .. government .. stay out of religion. Does so-called multi-culturalism demand that one group subordinate their religious or cultural beliefs or values to those of another group .. or does it mean there should be no religious or cultural values at all .. that we should all be in a negative zone where anything goes while we are struggling to develop a set of beliefs or standards of behavior that will make us all as one? Maybe. I have read of those who would like to see such a society ... but I think they are smoking wacky tobacky. Americans don't usually care if you wear a hijab .. but they might ignore you because they feel uncomfortable talking to folks they can't see .. and some employers will not hire you .. and many states will not allow you to be photographed for a drivers license if your face is covered. can this this be considered as discrimination? I think not .. its logic .. and those who live in countries where wearing the hijab is required are generally not allowed to drive anyway. But we are not demanding that they remove the hijab .. we're just saying that there are obvious consequences to any form of behavior that is troublesome to others. That is not going to change in the next few generations .. probably never will change. Some folks commented about the terrible state of humanity when I posted on the humor and cruelty involving a talk show host and Paris Hilton. I wanted to comment on that but I decided it was not worth the effort. Those who had particular feelings one way or the other might want to take a private look inside themselves and determine why they had those feelings. Knowing that as much as we would like to claim otherwise, Aromatherapy and Complementary Treatment is a discipline that is a bit more attractive to those who lean left of center than it is to those who lean right .. maybe it has to do with the mysticism or false natural spirituality of a practice that is actually all about chemistry but smacks of being New Age. I have never tried to hide the fact that I am one who leans a bit right of center on most issues but who is eclectic and practices common sense on many others ... and perhaps that has caused me to lose some business but I'm satisfied with the customer base I have and there is no way I would tell folks what they might want to hear or deny my own beliefs or personality to increase sales. If I had replied to that thread, one of the things I would have said was that as a nation America has adjusted its morale values .. downward! The Golden Rule can be tracked back to Socrates .. perhaps before him but he went on record with it. Though the Golden Rule did not originate as a religious ethic it was later a basis for many religious teachings in the 3 monotheistic religions and in others. But today we are in an environment that believes anything goes .. if it feels good .. go for it. There is a direct correlation between the rate of crimes against persons and property and the degree that religious beliefs practiced .. or professed to be practiced in the USA .. probably also in Europe but certainly in the USA. The percentage of the population that is arrested and/or incarcerated today vs the earlier years .. 60-70 years ago and such .. is much higher. Granted there are other factors to be considered in this but morale codes and practices are a big player in the increase. I would never claim that those who have no religious beliefs don't have morals .. obviously society demands good behavior from all citizens when it comes to violation of the life, liberty and property of others .. but aside from that, society in general has become more tolerant of those who don't practice good behavior .. who show no sign of having any morals or code of ethics. Witness the many actors and singers and celebrities who commit crimes like child porn or aggravated assault or drug dealings and so forth ... they continue to make movies and put out their music and make millions .. and they continue to have fans. Witness the vulgar language and nudity in many movies shown on TV .. Hollywood says they are making movies that reflect the realities of society .. they are correct that this is a reality in some quarters but its not something we should be proud of. Do any of y'all appreciate hearing MF this and MF that spoken forty-eleven times in one movie? And .. how many times do you hear it on a daily basis? Do you accept it even if you do live in a metropolis? Hollywood is not making movies that reflect the realities of the lives of the majority of Americans. On the other hand .. Hollywood is now going to ban smoking in movies .. drinking and fornicating and shooting drugs and MF this and MF that is fine but smoking is out because its not Politically Correct behavior today. Here in Paris, TN .. population a tad less than 10,000 .. vandalism or drunk driving or trying to outrun a cop makes the papers .. take a small section of any large city in the USA with approximately the same population and such things would not even be noticed because they are dealing with a much higher level of serious crime. Why is this? I think its because folks here demand adherance to the law from their kids and neighbors .. and there are moral codes here that aren't found in the more Liberal areas .. like in most large cities. Folks here will celebrate Christmas in the schools and churches and on the square of the County Seat .. the center of our small town. There will be a Nativity Scene on the courthouse square .. just as there is a monument honoring all the Tennessee volunteers who fought on the side of the South in a war that had absolutely nothing to do with slavery .. it was about States Rights. As far as I know there have been no requests from practitioners of Islam to publicly celebrate a holiday here but I am positive that if there were such a request the town and county planning committees and council would approve it. Why not .. US Presidents have celebrated Eid-al-Fitr (the breaking of the fast of Ramadan) in the White House .. using taxpayer money to cover the event. American government agencies close down and give workers paid time for religious holidays like Columbus Day .. so why shouldn't a maintenance man set up the Nativity Scene on the courthouse square? And why shouldn't a school where 99% or more of the students come from homes that claim to be Christian be able to celebrate a traditional (or maybe Christian) holiday like Christmas? In Ankara, Turkey folks might tolerate a high rolling Mafia figure who makes money through extortion or blackmail or crooked business deals .. he can shaft the government as much as he wants to but they won't tolerate one who makes money by victimizing the common man. They won't tolerate a loud mouth insulting people or trying to make trouble in a bar .. they get involved and calm him down. They won't tolerate a man pinching a woman on the butt on the street .. they'll beat him half to death for such behavior. However, in the metropolitan areas of the USA such behavior is considered to be a norm and folks don't get involved. Is this because our degree of toleration of immoral and inappropriate conduct has changed? I think so. On the comment about MY country and THEIR country .. I think it was a very valid comment. America is OUR country but it is not EVERYBODY'S country. If one wants to call America MY country then they must think .. or at least act .. as if they want to be a citizen of the USA .. they cannot (should not) just live here and enjoy the bennies but still practice the norms of their old country as if they had never left. Anyone who disagrees with this should check the demands and norms of other countries .. with but a few exceptions the above describes norms and even legal requirements in many countries. If foreign or domestic folks leave my Holidays alone and I will leave theirs alone .. live and let live. They don't want to eat pork .. then eat lamb even though it normally has more cholesterol .. but they should not tell me and mine that we can't eat pork. They can celebrate their holidays as they wish and I'll join in if they let me .. they eat what they want and I'll eat it with them if they invite me .. I'll visit their son's circumcision celebration but I won't come if they want to do the same to their daughter ... I'll report them to the police for doing this because they can't practice non-religious barbaric customs under the guise of being cultural norms back home .. while they live in MY country .. if they want America to be THEIR country too .. they must assimilate to a point that they will be accepted .. just as I had to do when I lived in many Islamic and African countries during my military career. If they don't like Democracy .. where the majority should rule .. they should go back home where its a norm for an elite minority to rule. I don't think the Western form of Democracy is necessarily the best system for all folks .. some haven't evolved to a point where they can accept majority rule or responsible exercise of freedoms or even human rights. If those folks are not happy with norms in the USA they should go home and cover their women, circumcise their daughters, teach their sons to hate and how to use an AK-47 and how to strap on a body pack of explosives (as CNN showed in the video of Hammas teaching 4 year olds). They can do what they want to do as long as they do it away from me and mine .. but if they want to live in America and enjoy a life that is probably superior in all ways to the one they left behind .. then they should not interfere with our freedoms .. don't make demands that we change our norms to suit theirs .. and don't mess with our life, liberty and property. Our fathers died to give us what we have now and as for me .. I am willing to die or see them die if they try to take it away from us and turn us into a a society that mirrors the norms of their countries. France is France, England is England, Germany is Germany, Italy is Italy, etc., etc., and we share many common traits and norms because of a common heritage. But still .. America is America .. and it will remain so unless others make it into something else .. I don't think I would like that something else and I'm sure I will not be around to see that happen .. but my son might be. Its my duty and my pleasure to now do all I can to prepare him to have the courage to stand up and protest any attempts to turn America into something else. You know I checked it out through snopes and then I > thought THIS HAS TO BE A JOKE, sadly, it's not. > Multi-culturalism and Liberalization of America and Globalization and Political Correctness are the Jokes .. but they are NOT funny jokes. > read about it here: http://www.tothecenter.com/news.php?readmore=3220 or > > google it. > > OH MY GOD, What is going on in this world????? > Nothing much in the world .. the world in general is not changing except for adopting a few of the better parts of the Western way of life .. its the West that is changing .. its North America and Europe. Reversal of that change might be too late for some of the countries in Europe .. though a few .. like Holland and Switzerland have lately begun to accept that their way of life is in danger .. perhaps we will see some changes in France when the people get tired of Burn Baby Burn .. maybe even in the UK when folks get fed up with their tax money supporting immigrants who are not working and are standing on soapboxes on street corners protesting the very system that is feeding and housing them. If the Germans ever get riled up over the Islamization of their country .. I doubt that the police could hold them back even if they wanted to. Spain .. maybe its too late for them. I have a lot of bad experience in Spain .. won't go into it but I'll warn folks to not expect help from the justice system if you .. as a tourist .. are robbed of your money on the street. You will be forced to take matters into your own hands .. as I did .. and you might be prosecuted for using excessive force on the criminal who tried to rob you .. as I almost was. I escaped prosecution only because of the help of a police official was totally disgusted with his own laws that protected the criminals and restricted the options of victims. I have always done my best to convince as many Turkish politicians and generals as I could reach that they should NOT enter the European Union .. the cost would be too great. They would have to cast aside the cultural norms that have held them together as a nation through very tough times .. they would have to give up their autonomy and buy into a Socialist form of governing where the workers pay for total care of the misfits and the lazy. They would be entering into a Christian Club that pretends to be Secular and Tolerant and against all forms of Nationalism and Racism .. but only because they Fear these two traits .. not so much because they abhor them. By joining the EU they might be able to live on welfare if they moved to mainland Europe but they would not be accepted as equals on a social level. We should not confuse differences in religious beliefs with discrimination or racism. Though they are often lumped into one category they are exact opposites if we are truly seeking a society where there is no discrimination. America, like Europe, has a long way to go before we totally eliminate institutional racism .. laws can't do it .. nor can the wild protests of idiotic black and white activists .. they do more harm than good but they are into self .. into grandstanding. Its going to take more time and a few more generations before the belief that no race is superior to another becomes a norm in the minds of the majority of American and European citizens .. behavior can change attitudes and attitudes can change behavior ... but it takes time. In the meantime, those who want special privileges because of their race or religion are doing harm to their own cause .. its not their color or the form of religion they practice that bothers me and millions of other Americans and Europeans .. its their behavior .. their demands that the majority change to fit their agenda. I have no objections to the President inviting Moslem leaders to the White House to celebrate Eid-al-Fitr .. or Christian leaders for a Prayer Breakfast. I have no objections to giving Moslem students or students who practice any other religion a day off to celebrate their religious holidays .. including Christians who want to celebrate Christmas. I don't have objections to the United Negro College Fund or Miss Black America pagent .. hadn't really given it any thought until I started writing this. But I think I would object to Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton claiming racism if somebody wanted to start a United Causasion Fund or a Miss White America pagent. I would not object because I thought they were wrong .. I would agree that they were right .. I would object because of their selective sense of what is discrimination and because the entire idea of a White or Black anything does nothing to bring about equality in the minds of White or Black people. I believe that terms like African-American, Italian-American, Native American, Spanish-American and such do nothing to get us closer to the point where ethnic, religious and racial differences will not even considered by the average person when they meet another person. I know for certain that during my 30 years military service, officers as a group did not give even a second of consideration to who you were or where you came from .. most folks can not begin to understand just how far we were ahead of civilian society in this regard. The only hyphons used in describing a person was if they were on a promotion list and waiting for their number to come up .. Major-P meant s/he had been selected for and was waiting to pin on the silver leaves of a Lt Colonel. We were all Americans .. even the occasional Sergeant who was not a citizen but had a Green Card .. s/he was an American. We were multi-national and we have different skin colors and religions and often our last names would signify our heritage .. but our first names were Lieutenent or Captain or Major of Sergeant and such and we were all Americans. Government interference in religious beliefs and practices will usually backlash .. it might take some time but it will usually happen. I won't go into all the details of why Turkey .. populated by a hard core Secular group of people who fear Political Islam .. now has a moderate (I hope) Moslem government .. except to say that even the liberals and the athiests got tired of the governments telling folks they could not wear a headscarf if they wanted to work in a government office or attend a government university ... and kicking professional soldiers out of the military for making too many trips to the mosque. My mother's mother was Jewish .. which according to them makes me Jewish. I was raised a Christian but now lean toward Native American spirtuality .. and see this as not being diametrically opposed to the basic tenants of Christianity. I have married a Buddhist (RIP), then a Moslem who is now a Baptist .. and I'm now married to a member of the Russian Orthodox Church. My son was baptised in that church. I have participated in and honored Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, Moslem, and Russian Orthodox religious and national holidays. As a Conservative American it never took me a lot of effort to do this .. maybe if I was a Liberal I might see things different ... but the Great Spirit has seen fit to not make me a Liberal .. so I admit that I might think otherwise if I were to become one. ;-) I have not and will not even think of telling my wife about this discussion because it would embarrass me to do so. She has not seen the world outside Russia except for 2 years in Turkey and now around 4 months in the USA .. and I'm still working on teaching her the good things about the USA. Though she was 17 when the USSR collapsed she still remembers how her family and friends had to play it low key if they wanted to practice the Russian Orthodox religion .. and she recalls the tales her grandmother (on her mother's side) has told about Stalin's attempts to wipe out the Chuvash people .. and the Kazaks and the Jews and the Tatars and any and all minority groups .. to include many ethnic Russians who were not as quick to say Yes Sir as he felt they should be. She understands that one of the first things the Soviets did to implement the religion of Communism was to control other religious beliefs .. and PRACTICES. And she recalls how quickly the average Russian rushed to the church after the fall of the Soviet Union .. even those who had no knowledge of Christianity rushed because they had been prohibited from doing so before. Secularism in many forms is but another religion .. Secularism in all forms is a religion when the government gets involved. Carol > Wishing you all a Happy Thanksgiving and a Merry Christmas .. unless you don't want to have one. If that is the case .. then I wish you a Happy Turkey Day and Happy Holidays. I wish for those who practice other religions a Happy Winter Solstice, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, St. Stephen's Day, Eid ul-Adha, Samhain, Winternights, Yule, Naw Ruz, St. Nicholas Day, Wintger-een-mas, Festivus, Monkey Day or whatever form of greeting might be demanded this year in order to be Politically Correct and not offend any sensitivitive folks. ;-) Y'all keep smiling. :-) *Butch .. http://www.AV-AT.com* ** *PS: Henny Youngman said he was glad to be an atheist for a while .. but he gave it up. No holidays! ;-)* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Bravo - Butch - Bravo! You have a way with words my friend! >>>>> Lemme start my harange by saying that American politicians .. and a small percentage of American citizens .. are two faced on most issues ... this one is no exception. This subject has come up on this list each year since the list came into being. ;-) <<<<< Rose Southwest Basics Internet Solutions For Small Business! <http://www.SouthwestBasics.com> www.SouthwestBasics.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 ) I luv it when you speak the truth.,... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 [Dave]: Another great rant, Butch! I love it when you get this way. I find it mighty puzzlin' how you and I who think soooo different, can wind up at soooo many of the same conclusions! > Lemme start my harange by saying that American politicians .. > and a small percentage of American citizens .. are two faced > on most issues .. this one is no exception. [Dave]: You got that right. People are far more concerned with being right than doing right, and that cuts across all boundaries. > It is about imperfect perfectionists who push Political > Correctness at the expense of truth and allowing the tail to > wag the dog. [Dave]: Yup, I agree...but here we begin to diverge...only to wind up in the same place again further down the road, so don't get too PO'd. > Last night there was a special on the > Criminally Insane. Folks can be determined to be so but > can't be incarcerated for treatment unless they volunteer to > be .. or until > they kill their parents or shoot up a school. [Dave]: If they can be determined to be so without having committed any major offense, is it any wonder people resist handing total power over to the state? > Its about the ACLU supporting a mother whose 14 year old son > was expelled from a school that had a dress code because he > had not cut his hair since he was 4 years old .. because .. > she believed in a passage from the OLD > TESTAMENT that said one should not round the corners of the > head. [Dave]: The ACLU drives me up the wall sometimes, but...if a lady wants to keep her son's hair long, SO WHAT? As you said, there are consequences. If the lady wants to grow her son's hair and NOT have to deal with consequences, then I'd tell her to get real. Suck it up. But I agree...whatever the reason for the eccentricity....is it a reason to deny a child his education? Is it about learning or conformity? > So even the ACLU will use > the right of one to practice their religion IN PUBLIC at the > expense of others .. IF .. it serves their cause of > disrupting the established system. [Dave]: Excuse me? At the expense of others? Who besides those who insist on practicing this or some other eccentricity is being made to pay? I will never understand this insistence on uniformity. And as much as I sometimes can't stand them, the ACLU is not about disrupting the system, EXCEPT where the system fails to conform to our own laws and Constitution. Sorry, but that's the fact. If we don't believe in freedom for those we disagree with or even despise, we don't believe in it, period. And no, I am not equating freedom to wear your hair or dress as you please with freedom to set off car bombs, lynch black folks or blow up women's clinics. > to change dress codes in other schools if one claims that > wearing a necktie is contrary to their religion .. as is > commonly believed to be associated with > the Shiia branch of Islam .. [Dave]: Well it's sure contrary to my religion. I refuse to work with a noose on. I dislike the symbolism. > When governments demand Secular behavior then governments are > practicing a > religion of a different kind! The Founding Fathers never > said there should > be a separation between religion and state .. they said that > the government will not enact any laws that favor one > religion over the other .. what they were saying was .. > government .. stay out of religion. [Dave]: We're together 100% again. > Does so-called multi-culturalism demand that one group > subordinate their religious or cultural beliefs or values to > those of another group .. or does it mean there should be no > religious or cultural values at all .. that we should all be > in a negative zone where anything goes while we are > struggling to develop a set of beliefs or standards of > behavior that will make us all > as one? [Dave]: No, neither of those things. What it's supposed to mean - unity in diversity - is that we all accept certain overarching values and principles - which are as simple as the Golden Rule - and otherwise, we are welcome to act, speak, dress, observe holidays, make money, worship and die as we please as long as we're not hurting anyone. It means we hippies in our commune don't have to worry about a bunch of rednecks with shotguns from the next county, any more than the whirling dervishes need to worry about us hippies. And it means we're tolerant enough, caring enough and interested enough in our fellows that we take an interest, learn about them, and MAYBE even adopt some of their customs. Is the world ready? Lord, it's been ready forever! > I have read of those who would like to see > such a society > .. but I think they are smoking wacky tobacky. [Dave]: Careful. Some of us might be enjoying a little wacky backy right now. You never know. > That is not going > to change in the next few generations .. probably never will change. [Dave]: I want to hear you say that in ten years. > I have > never tried to hide the fact that I am one who leans a bit > right of center on most issues but who is eclectic and > practices common sense on many others .. [Dave]: I'm about the same, except I lean left. My mom used to call me hippie redneck, and that still applies. I used to belong to the world's smallest club: The Radical Republicans. Now I refuse to belong to any party. > There is a direct correlation > between the rate of crimes against persons and property and > the degree that religious beliefs practiced ... > Granted there are other factors to be considered in this but > morale codes and practices are a big player in the increase. [Dave]: Yes, but so are class stratification, poverty, government lies and desperation. As someone said (Clemençeau?): The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread and sleeping under bridges. > society in general has become more tolerant of those who > don't practice good behavior .. who show no sign of having > any morals or code of > ethics. [Dave]: Yes, and we will pay the price. Remember Rome. Fact is, no great nation has ever long withstood the erosion of its morals. > Folks here will celebrate > Christmas in the > schools and churches and on the square of the County Seat .. > the center of > our small town. There will be a Nativity Scene on the > courthouse square .. [Dave]: You're bringing back many, many memories...bittersweet, because that's a reality that hardly exists anymore. > If one wants to call America MY country then they must think > .. or at least act .. as if they want to be a citizen of the > USA .. they cannot (should > not) just live here and enjoy the bennies but still practice > the norms of > their old country as if they had never left. [Dave]: Again, I agree with you. Except that if they choose to honor their culture at home and in their community, they are completely free to do so. I've been to Cambodian New Year, Naw Ruz, Rosh Hoshana and many other diverse celebrations because of this freedom. You CAN be a citizen of this country, a good one, and still observe your culture. I just watched a special on Ravi Shankar, a musician I have been listening to for over 40 years now. He is a perfect example although he is more a true world citizen than an American. > They can celebrate their > holidays as they > wish and I'll join in if they let me .. they eat what they > want and I'll eat it with them if they invite me .. [Dave]: Now, that's why I like you, Butch. For a redneck, you got a good heart. > .. but if they want to live in America and enjoy a > life that is probably superior in all ways to the one they > left behind .. then they should not interfere with our > freedoms .. don't make demands that we change our norms to > suit theirs .. [Dave]: Well see, that's already happened, and we've already knuckled under. Here in Alta California/Californistan the reconquista is well underway. The other day I was explaining to a Mexican friend (born here, but not all his family is here) why it is that he and his family have access to all these bennies that I as a white, native-born American couldn't get in a million years. He had no idea. He was outraged. He'll get over it, of course, as I have. > France is France, England is England, Germany is Germany, > Italy is Italy, etc., etc., and we share many common traits > and norms because of a common > heritage. But still .. America is America .. and it will > remain so unless > others make it into something else .. [Dave]: Remember? It used to be called The Melting Pot, half a century ago. Back then, most of our immigrants were from nations we could pronounce and find on a map. Now, they come from all over, and we are getting nervous. > I don't think I would > like that something else and I'm sure I will not be around to > see that happen .. [Dave]: Butch, you're too late. It's already happened. The government is different; now they say the Constitution is " just a G-D piece of paper. " And on the street it's different too. First of all we better learn Spanish. It's not about whether we should or whether it's right or wrong...it's about whether you want to be able to ask the guy at the bus stop how long til the next bus gets there. And like it or not, the underground economy is growing at a rapid pace...people just can't afford to live here. My Mexican friends can...they get free education, health insurance, medical care, and don't even need a social security number. I work my tail off and have little to show for it. Unfair? Well of course, but who said life was fair? We (our gummint) are the ones dumb enough to let them come. We are the ones who will pay the price. It's that simple, and let's face it, history is full of the migrations of peoples and the deaths of cultures. Then there's crime, which feeds off fear, desperation, and Hollywood. Can we fight it? Absolutely. But not by changing the friendly neighborhood cop into some paramilitary thug who's as likely to taser your granny as he is to bring down a real criminal. That just breeds more anger which breeds more crime. Our country has already become what it never was, and what many thought it could never be. I'm not saying it's all wrong or it's all evil. I'm saying it is different. And that's something maybe you've missed. Right now they're trying all kinds of things to get a handle on the changes...surveillance...stiffer sentencing...private prisons...and of course, more and more for the rich and less and less for those who work to support them. But they don't get it, and after some really bad times, they'll fail completely. Eventually, we'll get it all straightened out. But THAT's what you & I won't be around to see. Hope you take this in the spirit of friendly discourse. I really do agree with you on many things, and I like the way you express your ideas. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.10/1070 - Release 10/14/2007 9:22 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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