OT: America The Beautiful ** Was: Banning Christmas

[Guest guest]

Howdy Dave,

 

[Dave]: Another great rant, Butch! I love it when you get this way.

>

 

Thankee sir.

 

 

> I find it mighty puzzlin' how you and I who think soooo different, can

> wind

> up at soooo many of the same conclusions!

>

 

Maybe its because even California Liberals can't be wrong all the time ..

unless their name is Pelosi. ;-)

 

 

> > Lemme start my harange by saying that American politicians ..

> > and a small percentage of American citizens .. are two faced

> > on most issues .. this one is no exception.

>

> [Dave]: You got that right. People are far more concerned with being right

> than doing right, and that cuts across all boundaries.

>

 

Many folks like to believe what their friends believe so they can bond with

them .. some others are concerned ONLY with money or power over others.

 

 

> > It is about imperfect perfectionists who push Political

> > Correctness at the expense of truth and allowing the tail to

> > wag the dog.

>

> [Dave]: Yup, I agree...but here we begin to diverge...only to wind up in

> the same place again further down the road, so don't get too PO'd.

>

 

OK. ;-)

 

 

> > Last night there was a special on the Criminally Insane. Folks

> > can be determined to be so but can't be incarcerated for

> > treatment unless they volunteer to be .. or until

> > they kill their parents or shoot up a school.

>

> [Dave]: If they can be determined to be so without having committed any

> major offense, is it any wonder people resist handing total power over to

> the state?

>

 

You should have seen the program .. in almost all cases it was parents who

wanted their son or daughter to get help .. one father said that his son was

going to kill him or his mother if the system did not take him in for

treatment. They took him in after he killed his mother .. he said the Pope

told him to kill her. Another of the many cases concerned Cho and the

Virginia Tech massacre .. 27 folks died and many

were injured though he had been declared mentally ill by a judge who ordered

him to get treatment .. but it could not be forced on him. Lots of folks

wish the gummit had the power to take over in that case.

 

 

> > Its about the ACLU supporting a mother whose 14 year old son

> > was expelled from a school that had a dress code because he

> > had not cut his hair since he was 4 years old .. because ..

> > she believed in a passage from the OLD TESTAMENT that

> > said one should not round the corners of the head.

>

> [Dave]: The ACLU drives me up the wall sometimes, but...if a lady wants to

> keep her son's hair long, SO WHAT? As you said, there are consequences. If

>

> the lady wants to grow her son's hair and NOT have to deal with

> conquencies,

> then I'd tell her to get real. Suck it up. But I agree...whatever the

> reason for

> the eccentricity....is it a reason to deny a child his education? Is it

> about

> learning or conformity?

>

 

Might oughta be about learning to conform .. to some things. Those who

refuse to conform but demand others do conform is what this entire thread

was about from the git go.

 

> So even the ACLU will use the right of one to practice their

> > religion IN PUBLIC at the expense of others .. IF .. it

> > serves their cause of disrupting the established system.

>

> [Dave]: Excuse me? At the expense of others? Who besides those who insist

> on practicing this or some other eccentricity is being made to pay?

>

 

The many who have their traditional and established norms cast out the

window for the sake of one person.

 

I will never understand this insistence on uniformity.

>

 

Conformity is about group behavior and it can be bad or good depending on

the circumstances. We don't necessarily have to internalize all beliefs and

behavior in order to comply with them .. like some might not think its

dangerous when they drink and drive but they will avoid doing so in order to

avoid the penalties. Likewise, if a person wants to be liked and accepted

by a group they often must conform even though deep down they don't agree

with the group .. this is an important part of the maturing process for

younguns.

 

And as much as I sometimes can't stand them, the ACLU is not about

> disrupting the system, EXCEPT where the system fails to conform to

> our own laws and Constitution.

>

 

Glad to hear you insist on conformity .. or uniformity. ;-)

 

If we don't believe in freedom for those we disagree with or

> even despise, we don't believe in it, period. And no, I am not equating

> freedom to wear your hair or dress as you please with freedom to set off

> car

> bombs, lynch black folks or blow up women's clinics.

>

 

But .. total freedom in exercising all forms of behavior results in chaos ..

I'm not talking about legal and illegal behavior. Some folks can drive

their parents, teachers, friends and the cops to drink if they are wise

enough to know the limits they should not exceed.

 

 

> > The Founding Fathers never said there should be a

> >separation between religion and state .. they said that

> > the government will not enact any laws that favor one

> > religion over the other .. what they were saying was ..

> > government .. stay out of religion.

>

> [Dave]: We're together 100% again.

>

 

Good .. and whether its a reality today or not .. they believed in a

government of the people, by the people and for the people. Note that this

is plural .. its not for the person .. its about groups.

 

> Does so-called multi-culturalism demand that one group

> > subordinate their religious or cultural beliefs or values to

> > those of another group .. or does it mean there should be no

> > religious or cultural values at all .. that we should all be

> > in a negative zone where anything goes while we are

> > struggling to develop a set of beliefs or standards of

> > behavior that will make us all

> > as one?

>

> > those who would like to see such a society

> > but I think they are smoking wacky tobacky.

>

> [Dave]: Careful. Some of us might be enjoying a little wacky backy right

> now. You never know.

>

 

Don't doubt it a bit and don't gotta know or care .. I'm gonna have a Jack

Daniels after I finish this post but I wanna have a clear mind while I am

writing. ;-)

 

> That is not going change in the next few

> >generations .. probably never will change.

>

> [Dave]: I want to hear you say that in ten years.

>

 

The above statement was in regard to ladies wearing the hijab and driving

licenses .. and folks feeling uncomfortable talking to those who have their

faces covered .. and bosses of non Islamic firms hiring such people. I

would really like to be around 10 years from now and if I am I believe I

will be able to repeat this and I believe it will still be the situation.

;-)

 

> never tried to hide the fact that I am one who leans a bit

> > right of center on most issues but who is eclectic and

> > practices common sense on many others ..

>

> [Dave]: I'm about the same, except I lean left. My mom used to call me

> hippie redneck, and that still applies. I used to belong to the world's

> smallest club: The Radical Republicans. Now I refuse to belong to any

> party.

>

 

Its not easy to live in California if one is a Conservative. ;-) Here in

Paris folks are Conservative Democrats.

 

> society in general has become more tolerant of those who

> > don't practice good behavior .. who show no sign of having

> > any morals or code of ethics.

>

> Dave]: Yes, and we will pay the price. Remember Rome. Fact is, no great

> nation has ever long withstood the erosion of its morals.

>

 

History will bear this out but there are many differences between the forms

of Democracy practiced then and now. I have always believed that morality

is synonymous with ethics but today it seems that in big business and in

government ethics is something practiced by a few suckers. This is not

something found only in the USA .. its an international trend.

 

> Folks here will celebrate Christmas in the schools and churches

> > and on the square of the County Seat .. there will be a Nativity

> > Scene on the courthouse square.

>

 

]: You're bringing back many, many memories...bittersweet, because

> that's a reality that hardly exists anymore.

>

 

Yep .. but for a fact I saw many outdoor Nativity Scenes in Turkey .. the

few who might have objected got no publicity because the gummit was

demanding respect for all religions. Turkey has a good many Christians ..

and quite a few churches.

 

 

> > If one wants to call America MY country then they must think

> > .. or at least act .. as if they want to be a citizen of the

> > USA .. they cannot (should not just live here and enjoy

> >the bennies but still practice the norms of

> > their old country as if they had never left.

>

> [Dave]: Again, I agree with you. Except that if they choose to honor their

> culture at home and in their community, they are completely free to do so.

>

> I've been to Cambodian New Year, Naw Ruz, Rosh Hoshana and many other

> diverse celebrations because of this freedom. You CAN be a citizen of this

> country, a good one, and still observe your culture.

>

 

No problem if they honor their own culture .. they should keep it close to

their hearts and teach their children that culture .. just don't demand that

culture subordinate mine. We will teach the Russian culture to my son and

he will honor it as he does the American culture we live in here in

Tennessee .. good it is that he will know both but he will not get along as

well if he tries to be a Russian in Paris, TN .. he must be an American. I

still honor the Turkish culture .. Turkey is my second home and when I go

back to visit I will slip back into their norms .. but all of them don't

apply here. In some cases I could add that unfortunately, some of them

don't apply here.

 

> They can celebrate their holidays as they

> > wish and I'll join in if they let me .. they eat what they

> > want and I'll eat it with them if they invite me ..

>

> [Dave]: Now, that's why I like you, Butch. For a redneck, you got a good

> heart.

>

 

I'll learn how good my heart is after the physical is completed .. going in

tomorrow for the briefings on the Colonscopy .. then they can check on my

heart. ;-) The word " redneck " can be an insult to some and a matter of

pride to others .. it has a Scots-Irish origin but like the word " gay " the

meaning has changed over time. Though all the folks in the South don't

agree with me .. I use the term in lieu of White Trash .. my cousins in

Kentucky say they are not White Trash but they are Rednecks. ;-) I see

myself as being generally an international Gud Ol' Boy .. and since I am now

living in Tennessee .. I reckon I am also a Hill Billy. But that term also

has changed over time .. its origin is British and had to do with

religion. Irish Catholic supporters of James II called the Protestant

supporters of King William " Hill-Billies " - Billy being an abbreviation for

William. Some others claim it originated with German immigrants who

settled in the Appalachians .. Willy was short for Wilhelm and Willys became

Bills or Billys and since they lived in the hills they became Hill Billys.

Today the term is synonymous with Redneck but I think the difference is that

though a Redneck and a Hill Billy will drink a brew or two when they are

riding along a country road .. the Redneck will throw his can out the window

... the Hill Billy or the Gud Ol' Boy will open the cab window and pitch it

into the bed of his truck. ;-)

 

> .. but if they want to live in America and enjoy a

> > life that is probably superior in all ways to the one they

> > left behind .. then they should not interfere with our

> > freedoms .. don't make demands that we change our norms to

> > suit theirs ..

>

> [Dave]: Well see, that's already happened, and we've already knuckled

> under. Here in Alta California/Californistan the reconquista is well

> underway. The other day I was explaining to a Mexican friend (born here,

> but not all his family is here) why it is that he and his family have

> access

> to all these bennies that I as a white, native-born American couldn't get

> in

> a million years. He had no idea. He was outraged. He'll get over it, of

> course, as I have.

>

 

The Mexicans are just trying to get back what was taken from them ..

California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and such .. and you Liberal folks

should recognize the righteousness of their actions. In time you Left

Coast folks will be the minority and then you can get all those benefits.

;-)

 

> France is France, England is England, Germany is Germany,

> > Italy is Italy, etc., etc., and we share many common traits

> > and norms because of a common heritage. But still, America

> > is America .. and it will remain so unless others make it

>

>

> into something else.

>

> [Dave]: Remember? It used to be called The Melting Pot, half a century

> ago. Back then, most of our immigrants were from nations we could

> pronounce

> and find on a map. Now, they come from all over, and we are getting

> nervous.

>

 

Reason is .. I think .. that back then the Melting Pot resulted in a

homogeneous society by the 2nd generation .. and the 1st generation was too

busy making a living and enjoying new found freedoms so they didn't dream of

supporting fanatical and rebellious ideas in their new home. Truth is ..

the idea of a Melting Pot was a bit on the idealistic side from the git

go. What we really did back then was create a new breed of mankind ..

called American. Shame it is that today we aren't doing as well as we

were then .. each new group of immigrants had their turn in the barrel back

then but today they hit the ground running and expect (normally receive) the

same benefits as those who came before and helped to plow the ground in

which is grown the wheat for the bread .. and they demand equal shares.

Many believe they should have equal shares .. I don't believe this .. they

need to earn it the same as the other folks earned it.

 

> I don't think I would like that something else and I'm sure

> > I will not be around to see that happen ..

>

>

 

> Dave]: Butch, you're too late. It's already happened. The government is

> different; now they say the Constitution is " just a G-D piece of paper. "

> And on the street it's different too. First of all we better learn

> Spanish.

> It's not about whether we should or whether it's right or wrong...it's

> about

> whether you want to be able to ask the guy at the bus stop how long til

> the

> next bus gets there. And like it or not, the underground economy is

> growing

> at a rapid pace...people just can't afford to live here. My Mexican

> friends

> can...they get free education, health insurance, medical care, and don't

> even need a social security number. I work my tail off and have little to

> show for it. Unfair? Well of course, but who said life was fair? We (our

> gummint) are the ones dumb enough to let them come. We are the ones who

> will pay the price. It's that simple, and let's face it, history is full

> of

> the migrations of peoples and the deaths of cultures.

>

 

Like I said before .. they are demanding a change to our norms and our

culture .. and in California and some large cities outside California their

demands are being met .. we don't need to speak Spanish here in Paris, TN ..

our citizens who came from Spanish speaking countries speak English in the

schools and in public. That is one of the many reasons I settled here .. we

are Americans.

 

But its not just immigrants who are living off the system .. a lady was

interviewed a month or so ago on CNN .. she had 6 kids by 6 different

fathers .. never married .. was like 21 or so .. quit school early and had

no skills. She has benefits that I don't have .. and she says she can't

afford to take a job because she will lose those benefits. We have

redefined the term " poverty " in America. If certain folks want to give

free benefits to families who have 4 members and who make less than 80 K ..

then we need to take a close look at their real intentions. Heard a feller

from the Brookings Institute .. a Liberal think tank that is. He said one

study showed that among those who qualify as being at a level of poverty

today normally have a color TV, cable, a freezer, an automobile, they can

pay their bills and feed their family and they don't lack medical care .. he

gave the percentages for each of these possessions and though I don't

remember them they were in the high 80% and low 90% range. He went on to

say that there were, obviously, some who were not able to receive sufficient

food, clothing, shelter, and health care but they were the exception amongst

those who qualified to be considered as impoverished. Who am I to argue

with a smart Liberal? ;-)

 

 

> Then there's crime, which feeds off fear, desperation, and Hollywood.

> Can

> we fight it? Absolutely. But not by changing the friendly neighborhood cop

> into some paramilitary thug who's as likely to taser your granny as he is

> to

> bring down a real criminal. That just breeds more anger which breeds more

> crime.

>

 

We can better fight crime if we untie the hands of the police and the

courts. There are paramilitary thugs out and about .. and if crime can be

traced to poverty and desperation then perhaps police brutality can

sometimes be traced to frustration. I think both cases are weak .. and

individual .. cause many cops are honest and helpful folks and many poor

folks do manage to pull themselves out of their desperate situation. I

like to think that the cream will rise to the top regardless of the weather.

 

 

(snipped)

 

Eventually, we'll get it all straightened out. But THAT's what you & I

> won't be around to see.

>

 

Agree. And when its straightened out the new, different problems will pop

up .. and odds are that our grand kids will not be around to see those

problems resolved.

 

 

> Hope you take this in the spirit of friendly discourse. I really do

> agree

> with you on many things, and I like the way you express your ideas.

>

 

Thank you sir .. same here .. I enjoyed it. :-P

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch