OT: Should a Parent Be Jailed Over Vaccinations?

November 17, 2007

Go to this link and cast your vote.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21839794/

Kathryn

November 17, 2007

> Go to this link and cast your vote.

>

> www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21839794/

>

> Kathryn

Gee, they sure put out a vague b & w question regarding the issue.

There is a big difference between a conscious non vax'er, educated

about the vaccines issue, who usually is inclined to tend to their

children's health in a different manner than the " mainstream " masses,

and a person who never looked into the issue and just doesn't vax out

of neglect.

I don't think parents should be jailed either way, and I do believe

every parent should be educated and informed so they can make a

knowledgeable decision that they feel is right for their family's health.

Thanks for posting this Kathryn

*Smile*

Chris (list mom)

A Little Ol'Factory - Since 1999

Organic 100% Extra Virgin Olive Liquid Soap

Made From TESTED TO BE PURE OLIVE OIL

http://www.alittleolfactory.com

CZ Luxe

Luxurious natural delights

http://www.czluxe.com/

November 18, 2007

I agree, Chris, would have been nice to have a comment section.

Sometimes the laws of the state requiring vax before a child can be enrolled

in school are intimidating and too bad parents are sometimes timid, even if

they are informed . . . With autism and related mental disorders increasing

in epidemic rates, many groups are extremely adverse to giving their 2 mo.

old 9 or more vaccines at the same time and especially because of the

Thimerisol preservatives. Flu vaccines also have Thimerisol. Don't forget

that today's pharmaceutical company is making huge profits on vaccines (that

make you sick) and their supposed cures for the diseases the vaccines cause

(look at all the ADHD/Autism related drugs out there). I think Michael

Moore covered this in 'Sicko', but there is a plethora of information on the

web about the correlation between ADHD/Autism/Aspergers and vaccinations.

The new official position of CDC on Thimerisol is that it is safe - after

they temporarily banned it and designated it unsafe . . . Now also

dismissing the fact that it is banned all around the world, including the

country in which it is made!!

Be well,

Marcia Elston

Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence, est. 1988

http://www.wingedseed.com Online 3/95

http://www.aromaconnection.org Group Blog 2/07

" Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide and slavery - have

resulted from obedience, not disobedience. "

Howard Zinn

>

> On Behalf Of chrisziggy

> Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:44 AM

>

> Re: OT: Should a Parent Be Jailed

> Over Vaccinations?

>

> > Go to this link and cast your vote.

> >

> > www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21839794/

> >

> > Kathryn

>

> Gee, they sure put out a vague b & w question regarding the issue.

>

> There is a big difference between a conscious non vax'er,

> educated about the vaccines issue, who usually is inclined to

> tend to their children's health in a different manner than

> the " mainstream " masses, and a person who never looked into

> the issue and just doesn't vax out of neglect.

>

> I don't think parents should be jailed either way, and I do

> believe every parent should be educated and informed so they

> can make a knowledgeable decision that they feel is right for

> their family's health.

>

> Thanks for posting this Kathryn

>

> *Smile*

> Chris (list mom)

>

> A Little Ol'Factory - Since 1999

> Organic 100% Extra Virgin Olive Liquid Soap Made From TESTED

> TO BE PURE OLIVE OIL http://www.alittleolfactory.com

>

> CZ Luxe

> Luxurious natural delights

> http://www.czluxe.com/

>

November 18, 2007

Hi Chris:

I just learned that our flu shots are made using mercury. I

confronted my doctors nurse with this and she looked embarrassed and

verified it for me. You have to " ask " for the one that doesn't

contain mercury and then need to pay more for it in order to be

vaccinated against the flu. I was appalled and so was she according

to the look on her face. Who says they are honest !!! If I hadn't

known about the mercury, no one guaranteed, was going to warn me about

it at all. That one is free. And they warn us about consuming too

much fish because they are so full of mercury nowdays ? I passed on

the flu shot. Just thougth I would mention this in case you all

didn't know. I also have 2 friends that were forced? to vaccinate

their babies at or very near birth, about 6 weeks old, and both

children had seizures and they finally admitted it was from the baby

shots. I had a nurse chase me down the hall of Kaiser Hosp. in Calif.

insisting she would see to it that my son was taken from me because

they wanted to give him his first baby shots and I told her no, he's

not having something foreign put into him at this tender age. I left

and he didn't get his shots for many months. She actually threatened

to have him taken from me as well as my other child. We're not free

here as far as I'm concerned.

Jenn in Oregon

November 18, 2007

> I also have 2 friends that were

> forced? to vaccinate their babies at or very near birth,

> about 6 weeks old, and both children had seizures and they

> finally admitted it was from the baby shots.

[Dave]: We have a regular customer at work whose son is severely autistic

and cannot communicate at all. He chews his hands so constantly that they

have to be weighted or tied down. Marco is about 13 or 14. He was normal

until he had a vaccination a few years back, I don't know for what. It's so

tragic to see this good-looking kid. Many people are afraid of him and shy

away, he can get loud and aggressive. But a few of us have learned to look

him in the eye and speak to him, and he understands. So sad.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1136 - Release 11/17/2007

2:55 PM

November 18, 2007

Hi all

For what it's worth, the CDC's website says:

Today, with the exception of some Influenza (flu)

vaccines, none of the vaccines used in the U.S. to

protect preschool children against 12 infectious

diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative.

Here's the link (hope it works):

http://tinyurl.com/3exhoo

Cheers!

Patty

--- Marcia Elston <samara wrote:

>

> Sometimes the laws of the state requiring vax before

> a child can be enrolled

> in school are intimidating and too bad parents are

> sometimes timid, even if

> they are informed . . . With autism and related

> mental disorders increasing

> in epidemic rates, many groups are extremely adverse

> to giving their 2 mo.

> old 9 or more vaccines at the same time and

> especially because of the

> Thimerisol preservatives. Flu vaccines also have

> Thimerisol.

______________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make your home page.

http://www./r/hs

November 18, 2007

Dave, I'm sure his parents are not leaving any stones unturned but just in case

have they had him tested for mercury poisoning? It is a urine test. Secondly,

have they looked into chelation therapy to remove some of the poisons from

vaccinations? It has been said that even kids with the most severe of vax

injuries have improved with this therapy.

By no means am I an expert but, as an independent childbirth educator who does

WAY more than your hospital birth class would ever do for an expecting parent, I

do collect information that appears to be credible on topics beyond how to

breathe! Birth and newborn consumerism is my specialty.

Additionally here's what the general public is not understanding about the

politics of vax. Instead we are being put through fear tactics to persuade the

public that non-vaccinating parents are ignorant at best and evil at worst.

++++++

ADVOCACY

Bad News for Mercury Defenders

By David Kirby for Huffington Post, author of Evidence of Harm http://tinyurl.

com/tpyo9

Next June, when the Vaccine Trial of the Century gets underway in

Federal Claims Court, government lawyers will defend the direct injection of

toxic mercury into infant children by repeating the well-worn mantra that

" five large population studies " in Europe and the US have completely

exonerated the vaccine preservative thimerosal as a possible cause of

autism.

But now it seems they may need to tuck a " Plan B " into their Federal

briefcase.

Yesterday, UPI Senior Editor Dan Olmsted reported in his " Age of

Autism " column that an NIH-led panel of experts has " identified several

serious problems " plaguing the database used to produce the US vaccine study

- the lynchpin of the " five large population studies " showing that organic

mercury is just fine to shoot into kids.

The expert panel report, signed by NIH Director Dr. Elias A. Zerhouni,

was sent to Congress in response to a query from Sen. Joseph Lieberman and

seven colleagues last February. They wanted to know if the US database, the

Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), could be used to compare autism rates in kids

before, during, and after the gradual removal of thimerosal, which began in

roughly 2000.

Unfortunately, the answer was a resounding " not really. " A laundry

list of " weaknesses " and " limitations " associated with the database would

render such a comparative analysis " uninformative and potentially

misleading, " the panel said, (though it did suggest some excellent ways to

re-approach the data going into the future).

Some weaknesses had to do with changes in medical practices over time.

But many of the limitations sprang directly from the poorly designed VSD

study itself (which, by the way, cost taxpayers many millions of dollars a

year).

The panel was concerned about the way that autism diagnoses were made,

and how accurately they were recorded by participating HMO's. It also

questioned whether those HMO's offered adequate services for autism

families, who might have sought alternative healthcare in more specialized

settings.

These and other problems could easily have contributed to an

" under-ascertainmen t " of autism cases within the VSD. As I report in my book

" Evidence of Harm, " most of the VSD kids lived in California, where autism

rates at the time were about 30-40 per 10,000 children. But within the VSD

itself, the reported rate was just 11.5 per 10,000.

The panel cited many other problems with the original VSD study

design, particularly what it called " a large proportion, around 25%, of

births excluded from the analysis. "

Government researchers claim they excluded one-quarter of the kids to

eliminate " statistical noise. " But the panel argued that these same children

" may represent a susceptible population whose removal from the analysis "

might unintentionally reduce " the ability to detect an effect of

thimerosal. "

And there were still more " serious problems " to deal with. According

to the panel, a proper study design should include prenatal factors such as

maternal receipt of thimerosal-containi ng Rhogam (immune globulin) or " other

vaccinations given during pregnancy, " (including, by the way, the annual flu

shot).

Finally, panel members worried that thimerosal alone did not paint the

full picture of " the cumulative exposure of a child to organic mercurials

through diet or other environmental sources. " In other words, panelists

said, we need to look at " total mercury burden " when assessing autism risks,

and not just the shots.

All of these problems, as the panel put it mildly, " reduce the

usefulness " of the VSD to prove or disprove a link between thimerosal and

autism, (which happens to be precisely what the anti-mercury group SAFE

MINDS told the government seven long years ago).

Which brings us to another problem. The VSD study is constantly held

up by public health officials as EXHIBIT A in the defense of injecting

mercury into little kids.

The study is perpetually cited by the CDC -- which conducted the study

-- as the justification for keeping a neurotoxin in flu shots that the

agency is currently imploring upon pregnant women and six-month-olds (who

receive mercury on flu-shot days in quantities several times over the EPA

limit).

The VSD is cited by the American Academy of Pediatrics as proof that

mercury in vaccines is just fine for kids, even while warning us that

mercury in the air, water and fish is not. It is cited by drug companies who

stand to lose billions and billions of dollars in litigation if a link to

thimerosal is ever determined. It is cited by incoming House Government

Reform Chairman Henry A. Waxman, an avid vaccine supporter, who now has the

power to investigate this potential medical and political scandal, but

almost certainly will chose not to do so.

And, most importantly, the VSD study was the cornerstone of a 2004

report issued by the Institute of Medicine which not only ruled against a

thimerosal-autism link, it took the extraordinary step of calling for a

prompt end to all research into the matter. (And this despite an honest

admonition from the VSD's lead investigator that his study was " neutral, "

and that it " found no evidence against an association. " )

Which leads us to Vaccine Court. Armed with the new NIH panel report,

lawyers for families seeking monetary relief can now effectively disarm the

most powerful arrow in the government's mercury-defense quiver - even before

the opening gavel.

This means that government lawyers will have to rely more heavily on

the four remaining population studies, all conducted in Europe. Two were

done in Denmark, where autism record keeping changed so radically during the

study period that it " may have spuriously increased the apparent number of

autism cases, " after mercury was removed from Danish vaccines, according to

the authors themselves.

In fact, Dr. Irva Hertz-Picciotto, the UC Davis public health

professor who chaired the expert panel, told Olmsted that the US study was

actually " an improvement on other studies, including the two in Denmark,

both of which had serious weaknesses in their designs. "

Then there is the fourth study, from Sweden, which only looked at

autism cases that were diagnosed in hospital settings - a very low and

wildly varying number each year. Of the five population studies, this is the

probably the weakest and most easily dismissed, which is why you almost

never hear about it.

That leaves the UK (a recent Canadian study not presented to the IOM

failed to prove or disprove a direct link between childhood autism and

thimerosal use in Canada, despite claims to the contrary).

There were actually two studies conducted in Britain (whose rates of

thimerosal exposures and autism spectrum disorders roughly paralleled our

own). Remarkably, both of them showed that children who got mercury in their

shots were LESS likely to develop autism, leading the authors (some of whom

had reported conflicts of interest with vaccine makers) to conclude that

thimerosal had an apparent " neuro-protective " effect. That's right,

according to the Brits, mercury is a wonder drug for kids.

That ought to impress the judge.

With so many holes shot through their " five large studies " defense,

the government lawyers will be left to argue that autism is purely genetic,

that there is no environmental component, and that the rates of illness have

not " really " gone up. We are simply better at recognizing and diagnosing the

disorder, that's all.

Well, if that is the case, the mercury-defense lawyers should have no

problem proving it. All they need do is produce irrefutable evidence that

1-in-166 American adults of ALL ages (and 1-in-104 men) fall somewhere

within the autism spectrum disorder, at the same rate as kids. But they

can't, and they won't.

The government wants to defend its use of mercury in vaccines based on

evidence drawn solely from epidemiological data ( " population studies " ), and

highly questionable data at that. But its attorneys are trying to win their

case in a Federal Court, and as Special Master Hastings, the presiding

judge, must surely know, epidemiology is " not acceptable " to disprove

causation, according to the Federal Court System.

Instead, one must also consider biological studies (animal, clinical,

test tube) when assessing causation. And that's where the plaintiffs will

come to court armed with reams of published evidence - produced at Harvard,

Columbia, Davis, etc., and printed in prestigious journals - to suggest a

highly plausible biological mechanism that would link a known neurotoxin

with a neuro-developmental disorder, one that has become epidemic, (and

expensive) in America.

Does the NIH report make it easier to claim that thimerosal harmed

kids? Of course not. But it sure does make it harder to argue - let alone

prove in a court of law - that it did not.

++++++

--

Dale

The people who make a difference are not the ones with the credentials, but the

ones with the concern. ~ Max Lucado

Believe in the power of words at birth: http://tinyurl.com/3748nc

November 18, 2007

Unfortunately there is stock of the old vaccines and you have to ask the

pediatrician to give you the lot number and proof it is mercury and thimerosol

free.

Don't think for a second these " old " vaccines are going to waste. They are

being sold or " donated " to other countries.

How's that for the pharma's and the pediatricians on board with it's conscious?

Dale

The people who make a difference are not the ones with the credentials, but the

ones with the concern. ~ Max Lucado

Believe in the power of words at birth: http://tinyurl.com/3748nc

-------------- Original message ----------------------

Patricia West <tribalpatty

> Hi all

>

> For what it's worth, the CDC's website says:

>

> Today, with the exception of some Influenza (flu)

> vaccines, none of the vaccines used in the U.S. to

> protect preschool children against 12 infectious

> diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative.

>

> Here's the link (hope it works):

>

> http://tinyurl.com/3exhoo

snip.....

November 18, 2007

Jenn, that's FEAR (a False Education Appearing to be Real) in action for you.

Sometimes I get very close to considering it all a conspiracy theory as vax are

aimed at the weak and defenseless (newborns, elderly and pregnant women).

Dale

The people who make a difference are not the ones with the credentials, but the

ones with the concern. ~ Max Lucado

Believe in the power of words at birth: http://tinyurl.com/3748nc

November 18, 2007

> Dave, I'm sure his parents are not leaving any stones

> unturned but just in case have they had him tested for

> mercury poisoning? It is a urine test. Secondly, have they

> looked into chelation therapy to remove some of the poisons

> from vaccinations?

[Dave]: Dale, thanks for the great post! I have suggested chelation

therapy to them. I think they are kind of buffaloed by the docs, but they

do shop organic so I hope they will look into it.

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1137 - Release 11/18/2007

5:15 PM

November 18, 2007

For those who have concern or interest here is a good web site

http://www.vaclib.org/indexdoc.htm#basic

My children are not vaccinated. Interesting point, for past two years

there has been sickness to the point where the school was about to

close (65% students and teachers out sick). All who were sick were

immunized...my son did not get sick.

By the way, we did not defeat Polio with a vaccine, we just gave it a

new name.

John

www.AncientHealingOils.com

, " jennsbellamiaskin "

<jennsbellamiaskin wrote:

>

> Hi Chris:

> I just learned that our flu shots are made using mercury. I

> confronted my doctors nurse with this and she looked embarrassed

and

> verified it for me. You have to " ask " for the one that doesn't

> contain mercury and then need to pay more for it in order to be

> vaccinated against the flu. I was appalled and so was she

according

> to the look on her face. Who says they are honest !!! If I hadn't

> known about the mercury, no one guaranteed, was going to warn me

about

> it at all. That one is free. And they warn us about consuming too

> much fish because they are so full of mercury nowdays ? I passed

on

> the flu shot. Just thougth I would mention this in case you all

> didn't know. I also have 2 friends that were forced? to vaccinate

> their babies at or very near birth, about 6 weeks old, and both

> children had seizures and they finally admitted it was from the

baby

> shots. I had a nurse chase me down the hall of Kaiser Hosp. in

Calif.

> insisting she would see to it that my son was taken from me because

> they wanted to give him his first baby shots and I told her no,

he's

> not having something foreign put into him at this tender age. I

left

> and he didn't get his shots for many months. She actually

threatened

> to have him taken from me as well as my other child. We're not

free

> here as far as I'm concerned.

> Jenn in Oregon

>

November 18, 2007

> By the way, we did not defeat Polio with a vaccine, we just

> gave it a new name.

[Dave]: Elucidate, please?

Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1137 - Release 11/18/2007

5:15 PM

November 18, 2007

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/diffdx/polio1.html

-

" David Lambert " <dlmbrt

Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:14 PM

RE: Re: OT: Should a Parent Be Jailed Over

Vaccinations?

>> By the way, we did not defeat Polio with a vaccine, we just

>> gave it a new name.

>

> [Dave]: Elucidate, please?

>

> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1137 - Release Date:

> 11/18/2007

> 5:15 PM

>

> The information contained in these e-mails is not a substitute

> for diagnosis and treatment by a qualified, licensed professional.

>

> Step By Step Instructions For Making Herbal Labna Cheese! So easy, SO

> yummy!

> http://www.aromaticsage.com/cz.htm

>

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> /join

>

November 18, 2007

John wrote:

By the way, we did not defeat Polio with a vaccine, we just gave it a

new name.

??explain please?

November 18, 2007

Hi Ieneke

Zonella sent this link a short while ago, in explanation of the

renamed polio comment by John.

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/diffdx/polio1.html

HTH

LLx

On 18/11/2007, Ieneke van Houten <ienvan wrote:

> John wrote:

>

> By the way, we did not defeat Polio with a vaccine, we just gave it a

> new name.

>

> ??explain please?

November 18, 2007

You can read the full article here: http://www.mercola.com/2001/aug/

18/vaccine_myths2.htm

Vaccination Myth #6:

" Polio was one of the clearly great vaccination success stories... "

....or was it?

According to researcher-author Dr. Viera Scheibner, 90% of polio

cases were eliminated from statistics by health authorities'

redefinition of the disease when the vaccine was introduced, while in

reality the Salk vaccine was continuing to cause paralytic polio in

several countries at a time when there were no epidemics being caused

by the wild virus.

For example, cases of viral and aseptic meningitis, which have

symptoms similar to polio, were routinely diagnosed and recorded as

polio before the vaccine, but were distinguished and removed from

polio statistics after the vaccine.

Also, the number of cases needed to declare an epidemic was raised

from 20 to 35, and the requirement for inclusion in paralysis

statistics was changed from symptoms that lasted for 24 hours to

symptoms lasting 60 days (many polio victims' paralysis was temporary).

It is no wonder that polio decreased radically after vaccines-at

least on paper. In 1985, the CDC reported that 87% of the cases of

polio in the US between 1973 and 1983 were caused by the vaccine, and

later declared that all but a few imported cases since were caused by

the vaccine-and most of the imported cases occurred in fully

vaccinated individuals.

Jonas Salk, inventor of the IPV, testified before a Senate

subcommittee that nearly all polio outbreaks since 1961 were caused

by the oral polio vaccine.

~~~~~~Vanessa~~~~~~

www.herbsofgrace.com

Natural Look Mineral Makeup

On Nov 18, 2007, at 12:14 PM, David Lambert wrote:

>> By the way, we did not defeat Polio with a vaccine, we just

>> gave it a new name.

>

> [Dave]: Elucidate, please?

November 19, 2007

, " Zonella Gould " <zgould

wrote:

>

> http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/diffdx/polio1.html

> -

> " David Lambert " <dlmbrt

>

> Sunday, November 18, 2007 2:14 PM

> RE: Re: OT: Should a Parent Be Jailed

Over

> Vaccinations?

>

> >> By the way, we did not defeat Polio with a vaccine, we just

> >> gave it a new name.

> >

> > [Dave]: Elucidate, please?

> >

Thanks, Like I said, I am an educated consumer...

I read the article referenced...here is the link to " The proceedings

of the first intemational scientific conference on the Post-Polio

Syndrome in the US have been collated in the Annals of the New York

Academy of Science. It includes 50 papers written by 118 contributors

from a wide range of specialties, including clinical neurology "

referenced in the above article....It's a book review that is quoted

in the Annals not research

papers....http://www.nyas.org/annals/detail.asp?annalID=627 and

it's out of print.

I researched a number of medical sites to find this info as well, but

unfortunately couldn't find reference to Dr Bruno, but here are a few

websites that reference him;

http://members.aol.com/harvestctr/pps/polio.html his hospital with

a price list for sevices.

http://irap-pari.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/bios/bruno_e.html a list of other

jobs

http://www.ott.zynet.co.uk/polio/lincolnshire/library/cs_b.html

this is a website for post polio victims, and references a lot of

interesting information with some good references.

Here is medscapes current article on Global polio virus and it's

impact.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/482414

As I said before, it is the educated cumsumer who makes personal

choice based on their own belief system, and hopefully a good review

of information given to them.

To each and every one on this list. i firmly celebrate your right to

opinion and choice to make such...Let freedom ring.

Thanks,

Lynn

PS I didn't read all pages in their entirety. I didn't feel for my

own edification at this point I needed to. I do believe that the

CFS and other diseases in this area are related to auto immune

issues, and connective tissue disease as well. I also believe polio

was and is a virus. Indeed the two may have a link as viruses attack

bodies which immune systems within those bodies are meant to

protect. Research in this area has value, and I will always review

well referenced research.

November 19, 2007

I HAD POLIO AS A YOUNG GIRL. ACCORDING TO MY DOCTOR WHO HAS RESEARCHED THIS

SUBJECT FOR MANY YEARS, DR. RICHARD BRUNO, POST POLIO CLINIC, ENGLEWOOD

HOSPITAL, NJ., POLIO WAS ON IT'S WAY OUT.

NOW I HAVE POST POLIO SYNDROME. NOW YOU KNOW THE REASON I AM INTERESTED IN

THE OILS.

NO WAY SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT CONTROL WHAT PARENTS DECIDE WITH REGARD TO

IMMUNIZATION.

GRANDMA PAT

----

Vanessa Nixon Klein

11/18/2007 05:24:13 PM

Re: Re: OT: Should a Parent Be Jailed Over

Vaccinations?

You can read the full article here: http://www.mercola.com/2001/aug/

18/vaccine_myths2.htm

Vaccination Myth #6:

" Polio was one of the clearly great vaccination success stories... "

.....or was it?