Organic Farming - A Dose Of Reality

[Guest guest]

Butch wrote:

... though not really more healthy than those grown with

commercial fertilizers.

 

Nitrates from chemical fertilizers destroy carotene and vitamin A in our

growing food, in our bodies, and in animals we use for meat. From Adelle

Davis book Let's Eat Right to Keep Fit.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=131

My definition of a fertilizer is anything that improves the soil and helps

to stimulate plant growth. For example, dead leaves that fall off a tree are

fertilizers. As they break down they turn into organic matter or humus and

feed the soil microbes. Microbes such as the beneficial fungi on the roots

protect and feed the root hairs of the plants. This feeding process releases

the nutrients to feed plants. That's how it works on the prairie and in the

forest. We're just speeding up the process.

 

All the basic soil amendments meet that definition, but they are intended

for building the health of the soil more than for routine fertilizing. They

are more gentle and work more slowly over time. The basic soil amendments

are manure-based organic compost, cornmeal, lava sand, Texas greensand,

zeolite and dry molasses.

 

Manure based organic compost - This is the basic building block of organics.

It is the material we would find on an undisturbed forest floor. It acts as

a gentle fertilizer encouraging microbial action.

 

Cornmeal - This natural fungicide is a mild fertilizer and disease fighter

that should be used until your soil gets healthy.

 

Lava sand - You can use as much as you want as long as you want. Remember

that the most productive soils in the world - Costa Rica, Hawaii, and parts

of the West Coast and the Mediterranean - places with a history of volcanic

action, are almost solid lava.

 

Texas greensand - Mined from ancient sea beds, Texas greensand is a marine

deposit that is loaded with iron -and other trace minerals. It can end up

being a bit of a problem in soils with high levels of iron.

 

Dry molasses - This is not solid dried molasses. It's organic material like

rice hull bits that have been sprayed with molasses and dried. It is a

powerful carbon source that really kicks up microbial activity.

 

 

Zo

 

 

_____

No viruses found in this outgoing message

Scanned by iolo AntiVirus 1.1.15.10

http://www.iolo.com

[Guest guest]

Howdy Dave,

 

> Butch, You know I love ya. You know I love the

> generosity of all your information and all the time

> you give making it available. And you know I often

> even agree with what you say, but this is just flat

> totally and completely wrong!

 

[Dave]: THANK YOU!!!

 

For what? Did you need a nudge to get you moving? ;-)

 

I didn't have the energy to jump into this one.

 

Maybe you should have just sat back a while longer and waited to see what

came up. Getting involved in this discussion is gonna take a heckuva lotta

energy if you expect to have an impact beyond cheering the efforts of

others.

 

You are so right.

 

About what? About my entire post being " just flat totally and completely

wrong! " ? That is the major point I got out of Kunzang's post .. but her

post didn't even address the point I was making in my post. I think that

she thought someone was kicking one of her sacred cows .. the one named

Organic Farming .. but that was not the case at all.

 

She has a good excuse for doing that because she has not been on this list

long enough to know that I choose my words carefully and folks might oughta

read my posts well before they disagree. Maybe you have a good excuse

for assuming she was discussing fertilizer .. or maybe she was discussing

it even though she didn't say she was and maybe you are psychic and knew it

anyway .. or .. maybe it was because you were low on energy and like

Kunzang you might have read only what you wanted to read in my post and

missed the real .. and clear.. intent. ;-)

 

For most of the 100,000 years, give or take an eon, that we've been

practicing

we've been practicing agriculture, Monsanto didn't exist.

 

Not sure if your time line is accurate but I am sure that Monsanto wasn't

around back then. But how the heck did Monsanto come into this? I was

about feeding folks in Africa cause the Organic Farming fanatics couldn't do

it.

 

Organic was the only kind of farming that existed until less than a century

ago.

 

That is not exactly true .. Justus von Liebig invented the first nitrogen

based fertilizer in the 1830s.

 

Chemical fertilizers greatly increase yield, but at the expense of other

factors such

as nutrition and soil quality. You don't get something for nothing.

 

 

If they greatly increase yield .. and we are talking (or should be talking)

about producing greater yields so we can keep a few thousands of people from

going under snakes due to lack of food .. then I think that the immediate

problem should be easy to recognize .. even for those who have the

stubbornness of a Pit Bull. ;-)

 

The fertilizer industry is one of two major offshoots of military

technology.

After the Civil War, the materials used to make explosives were used to

develop nitrocellulose lacquer, probably the best wood finish ever

developed.

After WWII, the fertilizer industry arose from the same source.

 

 

You might be right .. but the British were shipping commercial super

phosphates all over the world in the 1850s.

 

There's a certain swords-to-plowshares thing, but as always when one set of

problems is solved, another is created

 

Agree .. though some folks seem to believe I had my head up my butt when I

wrote my post on Africa .. I agree that

those who swear on their Mama that Organic Farming is the solution to famine

and we oughta try it where the soil is not as stable as the lava rocks used

in Hydroponics Farming .. and there is no natural humus and no available

manure or green matter with which to create compost .. need to walk the

ground and take a dose of reality.

 

I have walked fields in Israel and Palestine where dry farming had been

practiced for thousands of years before the Ottomans and later the Brits and

then the Israelis began to modernize .. and which now produce fine crops

from what was desert land .. but it took them more than 70 years to get

where they are today .. and they were not starving during that period .. and

the Western world was helping them out until they got ahead of the West and

started selling their technology to them and today something like less than

5% of the folks there are producing all the crops and the others are making

money doing something else. There are still areas in Palestine and Jordan

where dry farming is the norm .. and all of them are way ahead of most

nations in Africa .. plus they have the opportunity to do something else

whereas most Africans don't.

 

My Grand Pappy always told me to never come to a gun fight armed with a

knife .. and don't set fire to my home to get rid of the mice or to check

whether or not my fire extinguisher is working properly. Gambling is fine

for those who can afford to lose but placing some African nations into

experimental programs in order to prove .. or disprove a point is like

starting the fire to check out the extinguisher .. and trying to justify

such actions is bringing a knife to a gun fight.

 

Trading one problem for another is old hat .. choosing the least damaging

option when there are but two less than desirable options is something all

responsible folks face from time to time and its something we try to teach

our children to learn to deal with. We teach young lieutenants to face the

possibility of having to bet the lives of their troops on a decision to

attack or defend .. but we also allow him the option of giving up ground for

now .. falling back and regrouping and increasing his strength and/or

improving his tactical position before making a decision .. meaning

sometimes doing nothing is the best option .. for the time being. I am

convinced that regarding Organic Farming, doing nothing different now is in

the best option for many African nations .. it is not in the best interests

of their people to be concerned about the whims of Western folks who think

they have all the answers and who will not suffer if they are full of crap.

Feed them now .. fill their storehouses with foods grown with commercial

fertilizers and protected by commercial pesticides and when they have a

surplus and folks are smiling because their bellies are full .. we will find

it a helluva lot easier to get them to try new things.

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi again Butch:

 

--- Butch Owen <butchowen wrote:

> my entire post being " just flat

> totally and completely

> wrong! " ? That is the major point I got out of

> Kunzang's post .. but her

> post didn't even address the point I was making in

> my post.

 

Well, perhaps I did miss your point. BTW did you

write that post? Or just forward one from somewhere?

Seems to me I have seen it before over the years, and

the formatting that came though on the list, at least

the post I got, looked like a forward.

 

> I think that

> she thought someone was kicking one of her sacred

> cows .. the one named

> Organic Farming ..

 

Well, I don’t think I would call it my “sacred cow” (I

have others far more sacred ;-) but I do believe that

conventional farming methods have failed and will

continue to fail on an ever-increasing level. And

that worldwide corporate interests have a death-grip

on the proceeds of conventional farming and will do

pretty much anything to keep from losing their

money-machine. Further, I believe Monsanto/ADM and

their lik are in bed with BigParma and its ilk; both

benefiting from the ever weakening and ignorant

populace.

 

Furthermore, while I have issues with Maslow in

general, his “hierarchy of needs” idea that without

food, humans cannot concentrate on the just about

anything else seems true enough. Our (conventional)

“food” is no longer food, IMHO, it’s not only not

nutritious, it’s actively harmful. Plus the areas of

the world in which to grow food that is not only

nutritious, because the soil has nutrients to give the

plants which feed the animals and humans, but is not

contaminated grows alarmingly smaller each year.

 

> She has a good excuse for doing that because she has

> not been on this list

> long enough to know that I choose my words carefully

 

Well, if I need an excuse that one won’t do. I have

long read your posts with great interest and gratitude

for all the time and effort you most generously expend

on educating your fellows. I have been lurking on

this list for quite some time. I even lurked on a

previous list upon which you were active.

 

> and folks might oughta

> read my posts well before they disagree.

 

I thought I did, but perhaps I did miss your point.

It was late and I am exhausted due to season and other

responsibilities.

 

> Maybe

> you have a good excuse

> for assuming she was discussing fertilizer .. or

> maybe she was discussing

> it even though she didn't say she was

 

All the issues of “organic farming” are so intertwined

that it’s hardly possible to separate the fertilizer

from the earthworms ;-) or anything else. That’s why

I recommended those four books, because as a set, they

do the best job of explaining the bulk of the issues

to a reasonable depth and historical perspective of

the literally hundreds of books that I have read on

organics and sustainable agriculture issues over the

years.

 

> like

> Kunzang you might have read only what you wanted to

> read in my post and

> missed the real .. and clear.. intent. ;-)

 

Once again, I admit a possibility that my muddy

perception missed your clear intent ;-)

 

> But how the heck did Monsanto

 

Me. I brought them into it in my post objecting to

your post because... well, probably because I was too

lazy to do better. Kinda like using obscenities when

one could or should use clearer, non-obscene language.

Monsanto/ADM is/are a shorthand term in sustainable

agriculture circles for the corporate/political

interests that many of us feel are looming evil of

conventional agriculture and all the webs they spin.

 

> I was

> about feeding folks in Africa cause the Organic

> Farming fanatics couldn't do

> it.

 

Well, Butch, I disagree with the idea that sustainable

agriculture methods cannot meet or exceed the

modern/conventional methods in Africa. So, if that

was your point, I didn’t miss it, I just don’t agree.

 

 

See that movie I sent out the link to (it’s about

conventional vs sustainable methods in India), read

the four books if you have or will take the time (I

think you would find them quite interesting and

worthwhile even if you disagree). Omnivore’s Dilemma

is also available in audio format, and unlike the

norm, both the book and the audio presentation of the

book are equally fantastic. In fact, I found I got

different things from the book vs the audio format.

 

> If they greatly increase yield .. and we are talking

> (or should be talking)

> about producing greater yields so we can keep a few

> thousands of people from

> going under snakes due to lack of food ..

 

Once again, I disagree. The increase of yield gained

by conventional/modern agriculture methods is a very,

very short term solution for a long term problem.

Plus, if used continuously, it fails quite quickly.

Not only does the yield drop dramatically even with an

increase in chemical fertilizers and pesticides, but

the fertility of the soil, in fact the very life of

the soil is destroyed making it very difficult to go

back to sustainable methods.

 

A good example of one of the problems that can happen

using conventional agriculture methods is the Irish

Potato Famine. That’s what I mean about a short term

solution for a long term problem. From a broad

perspective, the folks that went, as you put it, under

the snakes during the famine are the folks that might

not have existed (due to not being born, or not making

it in childhood) if the Irish had not adopted

mono-culture conventional agriculture. And yes, I

know there were many other factors in the famine, some

political and economic and not really related to

agriculture... or were they? Those political and

economic factors were (again in broad strokes) the

same that exist in the mega-corporations like Monsanto

and ADM today. It’s a follow-the-money kind of thing.

In the Irish situation, that money-trail lead largely

to the English land barons, today, in agriculture in

Africa and the rest of the world, it’s the Monsanto &

ADMs.

 

> then I

> think that the immediate

> problem should be easy to recognize .. even for

> those who have the

> stubbornness of a Pit Bull. ;-)

 

Well, I would think so too, but since we seem to

disagree (unless I am still missing something) perhaps

that’s not so ;-)

 

(“Pit Bull”... Moi? Perish the thought! ;-)))))))

 

> There's a certain swords-to-plowshares thing, but as

> always when one set of

> problems is solved, another is created

>

> Agree .. though some folks seem to believe I had my

> head up my butt when I

> wrote my post on Africa ..

 

Ah, missed that one, therefore perhaps I did miss part

of your point, or at least the historical perspective

to your point.

 

> I agree that

> those who swear on their Mama that Organic Farming

> is the solution to famine

> and we oughta try it where the soil is not as stable

> as the lava rocks used

> in Hydroponics Farming .. and there is no natural

> humus and no available

> manure or green matter with which to create compost

> .. need to walk the

> ground and take a dose of reality.

>

> I have walked fields in Israel and Palestine where

> dry farming had been

> practiced for thousands of years before the Ottomans

> and later the Brits and

> then the Israelis began to modernize .. and which

> now produce fine crops

> from what was desert land .. but it took them more

> than 70 years to get

> where they are today .. and they were not starving

> during that period .. and

> the Western world was helping them out until they

> got ahead of the West and

> started selling their technology to them and today

> something like less than

> 5% of the folks there are producing all the crops

> and the others are making

> money doing something else. There are still areas

> in Palestine and Jordan

> where dry farming is the norm .. and all of them

> are way ahead of most

> nations in Africa .. plus they have the opportunity

> to do something else

> whereas most Africans don't.

>

> My Grand Pappy always told me to never come to a gun

> fight armed with a

> knife .. and don't set fire to my home to get rid of

> the mice or to check

> whether or not my fire extinguisher is working

> properly. Gambling is fine

> for those who can afford to lose but placing some

> African nations into

> experimental programs in order to prove .. or

> disprove a point is like

> starting the fire to check out the extinguisher ..

> and trying to justify

> such actions is bringing a knife to a gun fight.

>

> Trading one problem for another is old hat ..

> choosing the least damaging

> option when there are but two less than desirable

> options is something all

> responsible folks face from time to time and its

> something we try to teach

> our children to learn to deal with. We teach young

> lieutenants to face the

> possibility of having to bet the lives of their

> troops on a decision to

> attack or defend .. but we also allow him the option

> of giving up ground for

> now .. falling back and regrouping and increasing

> his strength and/or

> improving his tactical position before making a

> decision .. meaning

> sometimes doing nothing is the best option .. for

> the time being. I am

> convinced that regarding Organic Farming, doing

> nothing different now is in

> the best option for many African nations .. it is

> not in the best interests

> of their people to be concerned about the whims of

> Western folks who think

> they have all the answers and who will not suffer if

> they are full of crap.

> Feed them now .. fill their storehouses with foods

> grown with commercial

> fertilizers and protected by commercial pesticides

> and when they have a

> surplus and folks are smiling because their bellies

> are full .. we will find

> it a helluva lot easier to get them to try new

> things.

 

Well, I admit I understand your point a bit better

now, I think. I still disagree, in the main. And I

shoulda snipped a lot of the above, but damn Butch,

you just write so entertainingly I just didn’t have

the heart. ;-)

 

Where you and I part company is on the issue of what’s

the best short term solution for the problem. I am an

alternative medicine practitioner and to me this is

loosely the same argument, once again, like Pasteur vs

Antoine Bechamp aka the Terrain vs Disease argument:

In a healthy person there is no disease NOT because

there are no pathogens, but rather because the person

is strong enough to resist having susceptibility to

pathogens. It is not worthwhile to damage the

organism’s strength to fight or destroy the pathogens,

when increasing the strength of the organism can

accomplish so much more---both short and long-term.

 

My point is that we need to cultivate the health of

the soil rather than use methods that will quite

quickly take that health away. If Africa’s problem

were truly a one, two or five year problem, perhaps it

would make sense to get that yield up with

conventional methods and feed the people a less than

optimum diet to save their lives. One of my favorite

teachers used to say “When the house is on fire, it’s

not a time to save the piano!” But Africa’s is not

that short a problem. It’s not short enough to risk

that kind of extensive damage to the soil because (to

use your numbers) in 50 years of conventional farming

methods there might not be an ability to overcome the

damage to the soil and the conventional means, from my

paradigm, will no longer be effective.

 

And you’re right. I don’t live there. Probably never

will. But I do live on this Earth and what happens on

one side of Her, affects all the other sides. So I

*am* affected. Granted I probably will not die of

starvation in this lifetime, but it is quite likely

that I will die of a chronic problem caused by toxins

in my environment and lack of nutrients in my foods.

 

>

> Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch

 

Thanks, Darlin’ You too, always. KD

 

 

 

______________________________\

____

Looking for last minute shopping deals?

Find them fast with Search.

http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping