Guest guest Posted December 12, 2007 Report Share Posted December 12, 2007 Howdy Kunzang, Good it is to see you posting. Knowing who you are and what you think its not surprising to me to see your post and glad I am that you decided to come out and play. :-) > > Once we get past the smoke and mirrors we can see > > that Organic Farming is a luxury for the privileged. > [snip] > > Butch, You know I love ya. You know I love the > generosity of all your information and all the time > you give making it available. And you know I often > even agree with what you say, but this is just flat > totally and completely wrong! There is only ONE point > in the whole post with which I can agree at all and > that's that gardening can be therapeutic for the > gardner. Thank you ma'am and I love you too .. that it is both logical and normal cause we are Lovable Folks. ;-) Also normal it is that you would agree that gardening is great therapy. Aside from these two points I reckon that its also normal on most News Groups that .. (1) some folks don't read ANY long posts .. (2) some folks read only those portions they want to and miss the point of the post. ;-) Lemme tell you that I have worked hard to answer your post .. was replying on the list system and was about to hit Send .. then I touched some key on my keyboard and all I had written disappeared. It went back to the main message link .. so this is the second reply. ;-) > The rest, each and every point made, is the " industrial > agriculture " point of view which only serves likes of > Monsanto/ADM/BigPharma corporate interests. Each and every point? I oughta send that post to them and ask them for a bitta Bakshish . ;-) Seriously, I think your comments fit you into Category (2) above. > I could write a book on what's wrong with the ideas > expressed in the " organic farming " post, but > fortunately I don't have to---several other folk have > already done so starting in, oh, around 1930ish. Folks who believe in something write books that support their beliefs. Sometimes they write to disagree with the beliefs of others but still, they are writing in support of their beliefs. This is not unusual and its not only those who write books and articles who do this .. folks like you and me do it too. ;-) Though Organic Farming in Africa and Climate Change are both controversial subjects they are within the scope of discussion on this list .. as approved by the List Mama. So instead of writing a book .. why don't you take the time to address each of the points I made instead of making a blanket statement saying the entire post is rubbish? ;-) Being as I love you too I'll not put you on the spot to do this because I doubt that you or other list members I know (that is only those who post) can do it .. because .. but two points I made are worthy of disagreement. My lead in to the Left Leaning New York Times article, " Ending Famine, Simply by Ignoring the Experts " , was very short (for me) .. short enough that it is repeated below and further on .. herein. I wrote: > Once we get past the smoke and mirrors we can see that Organic Farming is a luxury for the privileged. The context and intent of this statement should have been clear from the article that followed .. it pertained to Africa. For those who skip over subject lines I have modified this post to read that way. ;-) I stand behind the above statement .. within the context that it was intended .. in Africa . . or in other places where folks are concerned about filling the bellies of their younguns right now instead of wondering which brand of Organic peanut butter should they buy tomorrow. I would enjoy seeing comments from any list member that show that Organic Farming is keeping folks from starving in such places .. and an example of one or two small villages in areas where there is plenty of green materials and manure will not count .. folks in those areas are not usually the ones who are starving and they have generally, traditionally practiced Organic Farming as a matter of necessity. Then I wrote: You and I and most other Westerners can grow our vegetables in our garden plots organically .. without pesticides, fungicides or commercial fertilizers and they will be more healthy than those grown with pesticides and fungicides .. though not really more healthy than those grown with commercial fertilizers. Aside from the point on Commercial fertilizers .. which Zo disagreed with and has posted a link to support that disagreement .. I see nothing worthy of disagreement. Thank you Zo .. I will reply to your post and discuss that link later. :-) Then I wrote: In our gardens we can use crop rotation and compost to fertilize the soil .. and ladybugs and such to control pests .. and of course gardening is great therapy for those living in today's rat race. And you agree with this so all is well there. ;-) Then I wrote: However, classic Organic Farming is not practical or economically feasible on a very large commercial scale .. and it is doubtful that it will ever be practical for even small garden plots in countries where folks must depend on crops to avoid starvation. If you disagree with this .. you haven't made that disagreement clear enough for this ol' boy to get the point. Chris sorta disagreed .. I reckon. She posted a link that was in opposition to my points. Also .. somebody please tell me that Organic Farming is cheaper than Conventional methods and that Organic produce is less costly. Can anybody do that? Lemme hear a YEA! ;-) Organic Farming has been around for tens of thousands of years .. and modern Organic Agriculture is nothing new .. in the West it was hot back in the 1930s .. then it cooled off and didn't warm up again until the 1980s and now the experienced theorists and idealists are saying that it is the solution to end hunger in Africa. I'd like to know which international organization has done something to prove this .. and I mean more than little pilot projects that look good on a web site and help to get funding from those who are easily impressed . If it is such a good idea then why are none of the talkers walking the walk instead of just talking the talk? I've seen a fair bit of Africa and odds are that with over 1,600 members on the list there are some others who have experience in Africa. I would be interested in their comments .. idealism is fine, I guess, but input from those who have walked the ground is more credible. Short vacation trips or visits to North Africa (other than Chad and Sudan) probably should not count because Africa Above the Sahara (except for refugees suffering from causes no form of agriculture can prevent) are doing fairly well .. it is Africa Below the Sahara that is in Deep Doo Doo! Read this from the European Regional Development Fund: http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/international_programme/ip_crop_ssa.php Please read it all .. not just the parts that you might agree with. Then I wrapped it up with: Use of manure as fertilizer is a source of E-coli contamination .. but its commonly used in the poorer countries due to lack of ability to purchase commercial fertilizers. Crop rotation can enrich the soil but not every nitrogen producing plant can be grown everywhere in the world. It would be great if poor countries could farm the insects needed to control other pests but its not practical and I know of no insect that can control swarms of locusts when they devour crops. USDA organic standards state that manure must be composted and reach a sterilizing temperature. If raw manure is used (a norm in the 3rd World, you must wait 120 days between application and harvest. That is four months and as we know from recent E-coli problems in the USA .. its not always practiced here and its dang sure not practiced in most 3rd World countries. Some of the Global Warming groupies who might also be vegetarians might suggest that we kill all the cows anyway because their farting and belching is contributing to the problem. Damned if we do and damned if we don't. ;-) More on availability of manure in my reply to Zo. Its not just a matter of poop scooping and composting. If you disagree with any of my other points lemme know cause I am not too sure exactly what it is you disagree with. Maybe you disagree with the NYT article. Maybe Malawi didn't really come back from the brink of famine. Maybe its not really true that the World Bank (who I dislike as much as I do the DisUnited Nations) and some Western nations got Malawi into deeper Doo Doo and President Bingu wa Mutharika got them out of the Doo Doo by not listening to the West .. and successfully feeding his people. Maybe he was wrong to use Commercial fertilizer. Maybe he should have told his people that that they are backward and lack patience and if a few more of them go under snakes due to starvation it will be a lot easier to convert to Organic Farming cause we won't have to feed as many folks as we have now and we can compost all the dead bodies to help kick off the Organic program. And .. maybe I am being sarcastic but in this case I think it is justified. ;-) ALSO .. I think that repeating the NYT article is justified because lots of new folks have joined in the last couple of days and they don't know what we are talking about .. plus .. likely it is that some folks didn't read it anyway .. maybe they will this time. If the article had been published by the New York Post or the Washington Times .. both Conservative papers, I can understand Liberals and Greens questioning it .. but it was from the New York Times, and though they are not as Liberal as the Los Angeles Times (who is?) they are pretty danged Liberal and traditionally support Green causes. Maybe they allowed it cause it showed how screwed up the World Bank is .. they don't like the World Bank either. ;-) BTW the first thing you have to do is to define " organic " ... is it the USDA's fairly new legal definition c. 1997ish (aiding only corporate and industrial interests) or is it the intention as understood by the folk who pioneered the INTENT of the organic movement (sustainable agriculture methods in addition to lack of chemicals added to soils and plants.) Once again, the books have already been written. I don't have to define Organic for folks on this list .. to them Organic Farming means absolutely NO synthetic pesticides, herbicides, fungicides or fertilizers. Of course .. folks do accept one synthetic product .. though like petroleum its classified as being a natural and organic substance but that is spin because its not .. that is Urea I'm familiar with the USDA definitions of Organic and also those of a half dozen U.S. States. I have no interest in being anything other than an Organic gardener so I don't give a crap what the USDA thinks .. or what anyone else thinks .. I'll grow my vegetables the way I do everything else ... my way. I've always tried to do my best to do my best and I was pretty successful doing it .. now that I have a family again I try even harder to do my best in situations that could impact their health and welfare. I'm not a supporter of American or Multi-National Corporations .. or Industrial Interests .. I'm not indebted to them, I draw no salary from them and I owe them no loyalty. I would like them clean up their Corporate corruption but I also accept that they are a necessary evil. I expect that a good many folks who are reading this post now agree with me and are buying their daily bread and paying their mortgage payments because these " terrible " organizations are employing them or theirs. As for the pioneers .. I know a good bit about Daniel Boone .. and also about Sir Albert Howard, the Father of Organic Farming .. and a little bit about Rudolph Steiner and Jerome Rodale. History is one of my hobbies. I also have a bit of dirt under the fingernails experience with Organic Farming. I spent half my younger years working in the fields .. all that we grew (except Tobacco) was Organic .. and at the same time I was an active member of the Future Farmers of America (FFA) and the Kentucky Soil Conservation Club. I joined the Army two weeks after graduation from high school to escape those fields. After retirement I opened my own company in Turkey and shortly thereafter became one of the three founding members of the Black Sea Agri Business Group, a Non Profit with the mission of modernizing Turkish farming in Eastern Anatolia by importing American technology and assisting them in growing the correct grasses for grazing and silage and feeding it to the correct livestock so that Turkey could again become an exporter of red meat and feed their people with a lower priced and finer quality of beef. We also worked projects with other countries in the Black Sea Region. I had the opportunity to meet and learn a lot from Agriculture Ministers from a number of East and West European countries as well as Israel and Palestine. I arranged, organized and attended meetings in D.C. between the Turkish Agriculture Minister and the USDA .. some of these meetings included Ministers from other countries. Our organization was head quartered at my company in Ankara (with branches in Istanbul and Washington, D.C.) so we operated under the scrutiny of the Turkish government organization that approved NGOs and Non Profits and when it came time for Turkey to take their turn as President for a year of BSEC ( Black Sea Economic Cooperation Council .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Economic_Cooperation_Business_Council.. I was invited to their meetings and conferences and had the opportunity to meet in conference and at cocktail parties many Presidents and Prime Ministers and their staffs .. and hear discussions concerning agriculture issues and problems from folks who were operating on the ground. Some of my ideas and reports were published by newspapers in Turkey and other countries, and I was able to travel and observe agricultural practices in member states Albania, Bulgaria, Greece and Russia .. and in observer states Germany, Israel and Tunisia. I was the sole consultant on and supplier of aromatic products for a large U.S Agency for International Development (USAID) project in Madagascar .. Organic cultivation of Damask Roses .. that project was completed. Later I consulted on a similar project and worked with an Aide to President Karzai of Afghanistan and with the Asian Development Bank (ADB) .. that project was canceled in time because the Taliban regained strength in the area that we were to start the program in .. the ADB then wisely refused to finance it. I have not always been a soldier and a source for essential oils .. I have a bit of Ag experience down where the rubber meets the road. It's been 18 years since I retired from the U.S. Army .. 18 years of experience for me is just that though I realize that for some folks it means one year of experience 18 times. My opinions on the subject being discussed were not formed by reading books that conformed to my way of thinking or searching the I-Net for the opinions of others .. and I am firmly convinced that Organic Farming is not NOW the solution to the problems of feeding people in many nations in Africa. In time it will become a norm .. but not now. My recommendations begin with: <http://www.westonaprice.org/splash_2.htm> (Snipped) I hope anyone who feels strongly either way about that post will read at least those four recommended books and educate themselves to a deep level about the issues and the history involved. Even if you disagree with me, those books are a good read and will give plenty of ammunition for further discussion. I believe that folks would have to feel mighty strongly about my post to read four books. ;-) But I ask you this .. do those books justify and promote Organic Farming only .. or are they concerned with Organic Farming in Africa as a means to deal with real food shortages now and in the near future? As for folks needing ammunition for further discussion .. I'm gonna give'em a lotta opportunity to disagree in some of the replies yet to come .. so they might wanna clean the dust off'n their front sight .. adjust the rear sights .. make sure they're not loading their weapon with blank ammo .. then fire away. But if they do disagree on something I wish they would be specific as to what it is they disagree with and why they disagree .. like Zo and Chris did .. cause its too danged hard to shoot at a moving target. :-) Anyone who wants even more recommendations, need only ask. I hope you get some requests and nice of you it is to offer. :-) Now .. afore I sign off lemme tell y'all how I really feel .. I haven't done that yet. ;-) I believe that Organic Farming is an Ideal (as in damn great) idea and in time the entire world will be forced to implement it .. like it or not. The World Bank and IMF and Western countries will use it as a hammer to beat other countries into submission .. same as we beat them to force them to conform with other Western norms .. we call it progress and modernization and its not all that bad a thing but convincing them of this is not always easy .. been there and done that.. I also believe that those who talk about African countries going Organic before they are in a position to afford this LUXURY .. before they can FEED their children instead of watching them die with swollen bellies and limbs like a skeleton .. before the DisUnited Nations gets off their CORRUPT and INEFFICIENT asses and does something positive to better the lives of these unfortunate folks .. should shut up .. go to Africa and see with their own eyes what is really going down .. and do something besides push their own idealistic and selfish agendas. Such people upset me more than I am allowed to write on this list. I've met some face to face and they know how I feel. There are many Relief Organizations .. some operate just to keep themselves employed .. its legal .. and any of us can kick off a Non Profit tomorrow and make some money. Though those that are controlled by the DisUnited Nations and some other international organizations operate with bureaucratic handicaps similar to those of teachers in the average U.S. school, I have been close friends with management folks in UNICEF who were dedicated and professional and I have a fair handle on their inner workings. In various roles I've had contact with numerous organizations who had a mission of helping others .. some did a better job than others. The organization I have TOTAL respect for is Doctors Without Borders .. I worked with them in August 1999 while working search and rescue following the earthquake in Turkey which killed close to 22,000 people. NEVER have I seen more dedicated and professional volunteer folks doing any kind of work. Up to their armpits in blood while operating out of tents with generators providing electricity .. those young folks worked on and on and it was easy to see that some of them were in great need of sleep .. but they kept on charging. If they are the slightest bit idealists that idealism is directed toward helping those less fortunate than they are. They are unsung heroes in my book. Those folks who know little about Africa .. those who push and lobby to get their way and force systems on people who are not ready for those systems .. who operate with total disregard for people and are only concerned with achieving success in order to prove a point .. get their name up in lights ... and be able to stick another feather in their caps .. need their sorry butts kicked. KD Took a while to answer this one and I hope that my statements were clear enough so that there is no chance for folks to not understand my opinions. Y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch December 2, 2007 Ending Famine, Simply by Ignoring the Experts By Celia W. Dugger <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/celia_w_dugger/ind\ ex.html?inline=nyt-per> LILONGWE, Malawi — Malawi hovered for years at the brink of famine. After a disastrous corn harvest in 2005, almost five million of its 13 million people needed emergency food aid. <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/f/food_aid/index.h\ tml?inline=nyt-classifier> But this year, a nation that has perennially extended a begging bowl to the world is instead feeding its hungry neighbors. It is selling more corn to the World Food Program of the United Nations than any other country in southern Africa and is exporting hundreds of thousands of tons of corn to Zimbabwe. In Malawi itself, the prevalence of acute child hunger has fallen sharply. In October, the United Nations Children's Fund sent three tons of powdered milk, stockpiled here to treat severely malnourished children, to Uganda instead. " We will not be able to use it! " Juan Ortiz-Iruri, Unicef's deputy representative in Malawi, said jubilantly. Farmers explain Malawi's extraordinary turnaround — one with broad implications for hunger-fighting methods across Africa — with one word: fertilizer. Over the past 20 years, the World Bank and some rich nations Malawi depends on for aid have periodically pressed this small, landlocked country to adhere to free market policies and cut back or eliminate fertilizer subsidies, even as the United States and Europe extensively subsidized their own farmers. But after the 2005 harvest, the worst in a decade, Bingu wa Mutharika, Malawi's newly elected president, decided to follow what the West practiced, not what it preached. Stung by the humiliation of pleading for charity, he led the way to reinstating and deepening fertilizer subsidies despite a skeptical reception from the United States and Britain. Malawi's soil, like that across sub-Saharan Africa, is gravely depleted, and many, if not most, of its farmers are too poor to afford fertilizer at market prices. " As long as I'm president, I don't want to be going to other capitals begging for food, " Mr. Mutharika declared. Patrick Kabambe, the senior civil servant in the Agriculture Ministry, said the president told his advisers, " Our people are poor because they lack the resources to use the soil and the water we have. " The country's successful use of subsidies is contributing to a broader reappraisal of the crucial role of agriculture in alleviating poverty in Africa and the pivotal importance of public investments in the basics of a farm economy: fertilizer, improved seed, farmer education, credit and agricultural research. Malawi, an overwhelmingly rural nation about the size of Pennsylvania, is an extreme example of what happens when those things are missing. As its population has grown and inherited landholdings have shrunk, impoverished farmers have planted every inch of ground. Desperate to feed their families, they could not afford to let their land lie fallow or to fertilize it. Over time, their depleted plots yielded less food and the farmers fell deeper into poverty. Malawi's leaders have long favored fertilizer subsidies, but they reluctantly acceded to donor prescriptions, often shaped by foreign-aid fashions in Washington, that featured a faith in private markets and an antipathy to government intervention. In the 1980s and again in the 1990s, the World Bank pushed Malawi to eliminate fertilizer subsidies entirely. Its theory both times was that Malawi's farmers should shift to growing cash crops for export and use the foreign exchange earnings to import food, according to Jane Harrigan, an economist at the University of London. In a withering evaluation of the World Bank's record on African agriculture, the bank's own internal watchdog concluded in October not only that the removal of subsidies had led to exorbitant fertilizer prices in African countries, but that the bank itself had often failed to recognize that improving Africa's declining soil quality was essential to lifting food production. " The donors took away the role of the government and the disasters mounted, " said Jeffrey Sachs, a Columbia University economist who lobbied Britain and the World Bank on behalf of Malawi's fertilizer program and who has championed the idea that wealthy countries should invest in fertilizer and seed for Africa's farmers. Here in Malawi, deep fertilizer subsidies and lesser ones for seed, abetted by good rains, helped farmers produce record-breaking corn harvests in 2006 and 2007, according to government crop estimates. Corn production leapt to 2.7 million metric tons in 2006 and 3.4 million in 2007 from 1.2 million in 2005, the government reported. " The rest of the world is fed because of the use of good seed and inorganic fertilizer, full stop, " said Stephen Carr, who has lived in Malawi since 1989, when he retired as the World Bank's principal agriculturalist in sub-Saharan Africa. " This technology has not been used in most of Africa. The only way you can help farmers gain access to it is to give it away free or subsidize it heavily. " " The government has taken the bull by the horns and done what farmers wanted, " he said. Some economists have questioned whether Malawi's 2007 bumper harvest should be credited to good rains or subsidies, but an independent evaluation, financed by the United States and Britain, found that the subsidy program accounted for a large share of this year's increase in corn production. The harvest also helped the poor by lowering food prices and increasing wages for farm workers. Researchers at Imperial College London and Michigan State University concluded in their preliminary report that a well-run subsidy program in a sensibly managed economy " has the potential to drive growth forward out of the poverty trap in which many Malawians and the Malawian economy are currently caught. " Farmers interviewed recently in Malawi's southern and central regions said fertilizer had greatly improved their ability to fill their bellies with nsima, the thick, cornmeal porridge that is Malawi's staff of life. In the hamlet of Mthungu, Enelesi Chakhaza, an elderly widow whose husband died of hunger five years ago, boasted that she got two ox-cart-loads of corn this year from her small plot instead of half a cart. Last year, roughly half the country's farming families received coupons that entitled them to buy two 110-pound bags of fertilizer, enough to nourish an acre of land, for around $15 — about a third the market price. The government also gave them coupons for enough seed to plant less than half an acre. Malawians are still haunted by the hungry season of 2001-02. That season, an already shrunken program to give poor farmers enough fertilizer and seed to plant a meager quarter acre of land had been reduced again. Regional flooding further lowered the harvest. Corn prices surged. And under the government then in power, the country's entire grain reserve was sold as a result of mismanagement and corruption. Mrs. Chakhaza watched her husband starve to death that season. His strength ebbed away as they tried to subsist on pumpkin leaves. He was one of many who succumbed that year, said K. B. Kakunga, the local Agriculture Ministry official. He recalled mothers and children begging for food at his door. " I had a little something, but I could not afford to help each and every one, " he said. " It was very pathetic, very pathetic indeed. " But Mr. Kakunga brightened as he talked about the impact of the subsidies, which he said had more than doubled corn production in his jurisdiction since 2005. " It's quite marvelous! " he exclaimed. Malawi's determination to heavily subsidize fertilizer and the payoff in increased production are beginning to change the attitudes of donors, say economists who have studied Malawi's experience. The Department for International Development in Britain contributed $8 million to the subsidy program last year. Bernabé Sánchez, an economist with the agency in Malawi, estimated the extra corn produced because of the $74 million subsidy was worth $120 million to $140 million. " It was really a good economic investment, " he said. The United States, which has shipped $147 million worth of American food to Malawi as emergency relief since 2002, but only $53 million to help Malawi grow its own food, has not provided any financial support for the subsidy program, except for helping pay for the evaluation of it. Over the years, the United States Agency for International Development has focused on promoting the role of the private sector in delivering fertilizer and seed, and saw subsidies as undermining that effort. But Alan Eastham, the American ambassador to Malawi, said in a recent interview that the subsidy program had worked " pretty well, " though it displaced some commercial fertilizer sales. " The plain fact is that Malawi got lucky last year, " he said. " They got fertilizer out while it was needed. The lucky part was that they got the rains. " And the World Bank now sometimes supports the temporary use of subsidies aimed at the poor and carried out in a way that fosters private markets. Here in Malawi, bank officials say they generally support Malawi's policy, though they criticize the government for not having a strategy to eventually end the subsidies, question whether its 2007 corn production estimates are inflated and say there is still a lot of room for improvement in how the subsidy is carried out. " The issue is, let's do a better job of it, " said David Rohrbach, a senior agricultural economist at the bank. Though the donors are sometimes ambivalent, Malawi's farmers have embraced the subsidies. And the government moved this year to give its people a more direct hand in their distribution. Villagers in Chembe gathered one recent morning under the spreading arms of a kachere tree to decide who most needed fertilizer coupons as the planting season loomed. They had only enough for 19 of the village's 53 families. " Ladies and gentlemen, should we start with the elderly or the orphans? " asked Samuel Dama, a representative of the Chembe clan. Men led the assembly, but women sitting on the ground at their feet called out almost all the names of the neediest, gesturing to families rearing children orphaned by AIDS or caring for toothless elders. There were more poor families than there were coupons, so grumbling began among those who knew they would have to watch over the coming year as their neighbors' fertilized corn fields turned deep green. Sensing the rising resentment, the village chief, Zaudeni Mapila, rose. Barefoot and dressed in dusty jeans and a royal blue jacket, he acted out a silly pantomime of husbands stuffing their pants with corn to sell on the sly for money to get drunk at the beer hall. The women howled with laughter. The tension fled. He closed with a reminder he hoped would dampen any jealousy. " I don't want anyone to complain, " he said. " It's not me who chose. It's you. " The women sang back to him in a chorus of acknowledgment, then dispersed to their homes and fields. Copyright 2007 <http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html> The New York Times Company <http://www.nytco.com/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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