Bitter Almond EO, CP Soap Usage... Safe??

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

I purchased a bottle of Bitter Almond EO about a year ago to use in

Cold Process (CP) soaps. In that year, I did a lot of reading.

 

To date, I have never used it because of the conflicting information

out there on its safey. I understand it is considered too toxic for AT

but can someone in the group tell me if this is indeed safe for use in

soaps (if any of you have used it yourselves in CP soaps) and at what

percentage per pound of carrier/base oil is considered safe (I've

seen .5%/lb in some monographs)?

 

Thanks for any help on this!

 

Melissa

[Guest guest]

As no one else has replied I suppose I better. Do not use this oil if

you do not know what grade it is. Unrectified bitter almond is about

as toxic as you can get. There is a safe form called FFPA meaning free

from prussic acid, but if the bottle does not state that then do not

use it.

 

If you are using any essential oils in soaps you should get proper

safety data and not rely on the internet.

 

Martin Watt

http://www.aromamedical.com

 

-- In , " mazinkosky " <mazinkosky wrote:

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I purchased a bottle of Bitter Almond EO about a year ago to use in

> Cold Process (CP) soaps. In that year, I did a lot of reading.

>

> To date, I have never used it because of the conflicting information

> out there on its safey. I understand it is considered too toxic for AT

> but can someone in the group tell me if this is indeed safe for use in

> soaps (if any of you have used it yourselves in CP soaps) and at what

> percentage per pound of carrier/base oil is considered safe (I've

> seen .5%/lb in some monographs)?

>

> Thanks for any help on this!

>

> Melissa

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the response Martin. I appreciate you making the time and

effort to give your expert insight.

 

The distributor assures me it is illegal to sell anything BUT the

rectified/FFPO form of Bitter Almond in the USA. And, the EO I have

is actually a 50/50 blend of bitter and sweet almond oil.

 

I did request the Material Safety Data Sheet, however, nowhere on the

MSDS does it say that it is the rectified form. The reason for this,

it was explained to me, is that since it is illegal to sell it in any

other form than the FFPO in the USA, this information will NOT show

up on the MSDS. I find myself in a catch-22 situation. Outside of

having this tested I have no one else with whom to compare

information, so I turned to this group. So, the next step is finding

a lab to test it or cut my losses and just not use it all.

 

Is there a test lab in the USA that you, Martin, or anyone can

recommend... or dispose of it as hazardous waste?? Please feel free

to contact me off list.

 

Please note: I know you don't know me, so it's difficult to know how

maticulous and cautious I am. Please be aware I do not rely on the

internet for my information. I seek only opinions, an opportunity to

get to know others in my field of interest and for good old

entertainment.

 

Gratefully,

 

Melissa

 

, " Martin Watt "

<aromamedical wrote:

>

> As no one else has replied I suppose I better. Do not use this oil

if

> you do not know what grade it is. Unrectified bitter almond is about

> as toxic as you can get. There is a safe form called FFPA meaning

free

> from prussic acid, but if the bottle does not state that then do not

> use it.

>

> If you are using any essential oils in soaps you should get proper

> safety data and not rely on the internet.

>

> Martin Watt

> http://www.aromamedical.com

>

> -- In , " mazinkosky " <mazinkosky@>

wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I purchased a bottle of Bitter Almond EO about a year ago to use

in

> > Cold Process (CP) soaps. In that year, I did a lot of reading.

> >

> > To date, I have never used it because of the conflicting

information

> > out there on its safey. I understand it is considered too toxic

for AT

> > but can someone in the group tell me if this is indeed safe for

use in

> > soaps (if any of you have used it yourselves in CP soaps) and at

what

> > percentage per pound of carrier/base oil is considered safe (I've

> > seen .5%/lb in some monographs)?

> >

> > Thanks for any help on this!

> >

> > Melissa

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Howdy Melissa,

 

I'm sorta busy (actually .. sorta dumb) but I'm gonna take time to give my

opinion on a portion of your questions. I'm sorta busy cause I'm busting

my butt to get some form of order in my updated web site .. sorta dumb cause

I did a 39 hours stretch working on it afore crashing for 7 hours and going

back at it .. and giving my opinion on Material Safety Data Sheets cause I

don't believe that the Emporor has New Clothes. ;-)

 

(Snipped a bit)

 

>

>

 

 

> did request the Material Safety Data Sheet, however, nowhere on the

> MSDS does it say that it is the rectified form. The reason for this,

> it was explained to me, is that since it is illegal to sell it in any

> other form than the FFPO in the USA, this information will NOT show

> up on the MSDS. I find myself in a catch-22 situation. Outside of

> having this tested I have no one else with whom to compare

> information, so I turned to this group. So, the next step is finding

> a lab to test it or cut my losses and just not use it all.

>

 

MSDS is not a sound source document for determining the composition of an

Essential Oil .. in fact .. MSDS is all but useless for 99.99% of the folks

on this News Group. I'm not saying that MSDS is a useless document for all

purposes .. just saying it is for most of y'all and since its not an

analysis .. but rather a standard format for how to deal with emergencies ..

its useless for determining the composition of an oil in your possession.

 

Why do some sellers have MSDS access on their web sites? Because they had

the time to give to copying the standard information from some other source

and putting their logo on it and such .. and they will run into a customer

from time to time who demands one .. folks who are going to use the oils in

a hospital must have them .. must file them even if it is probable that they

will never be seen (or maybe even found) again .. because .. just as all

Military buildings and most other U.S. government buildings have a sign

hanging above the fire extinguisher saying who is the Primary and Secondary

operator of the extinguisher .. hospitals and some other outfits need to

cover their butts if they are inspected and the requirement to have an MSDS

on file for all chemicals is an item on the inspector's checklist.

 

Somebody might say .. but we need it in case of spills .. or in case of

ingestion .. or in case an oil gets in our eyes. I won't disagree with

those who truly think an MSDS is a valuable source document for directing

actions in these cases .. but I would suspect that few folks have them and

even fewer have ever referred to them even in cases such as those mentioned

above .. pure logic tells us most of what we want to know and besides that

... I have seen MSDS that had incorrect information on how to handle spills

of EO in the eyes .. some don't even address that. The value of an MSDS

(if one is going to use it) is nonexistent if the information on it is not

correct and incorrect is a norm because folks create them by making

composites from other MSDS .. some of which might also be incorrect.

 

The true value of an MSDS is to tell transporters and fire fighters how to

deal with emergencies .. but if you ship a barrel of essential oil you'll

find that its a rare transportation company that will ask for one .. and if

you check with the local fire department to see if they want copies of them

from you .. I betcha they will say NO.

 

What I am saying is .. MSDS is overrated .. its a CYA tool that folks use

because the Government demands certain folks and certain agencies have them

on file. And MSDS is not a reliable source for telling you if your Bitter

Almond EO is safe.

 

Am I gonna have MSDS access on my updated web site? Yep! Why? For the

reasons I mentioned above .. to accommodate those who really need them and

to make those who don't need them but think they need them feel good about

being able to get them. ;-) It is not a priority for me now .. it will

be something added a bit at a time cause its gonna take me a lotta time to

research the data and ensure they are not just pencil whipped documents.

 

I don't sell Bitter Almond .. not really sure if the source you purchased

yours from really sells it either. This might have changed .. but there

was a time when I lived in Turkey and was exporting Turkish oils that it was

controlled by the Drug Enforcement Administration .. DEA wanted all kinds of

information and Turkish Customs demanded that all that be provided before it

could be shipped .. I'm not just talking name, rank, service number, date of

birth and your dawg's name. It was like shipping firearms .. those who

received the product had to have a business license and indicate how and

why they wanted to use it. Like I said, this might not be the case now but

it was when a buyer in the USA wanted a large volume from me .. I researched

it and decided to tell them I couldn't deal with it. Turkey still produces

a lot of it and exports it.

 

Also .. far as I know the only use for Bitter Almond oil is for food

flavorings .. I know of no proven or traditional therapeutic value for use

of the EO in Aromatherapy. If there is one then somebody please edumocate

me on this .. I am not too hard headed to learn new things .. if .. there is

credible support for changing my opinions. ;-) Is it commonly used in

soaps? I don't know.

 

As far as Bitter Almond being toxic .. I haven't unpacked my Plant Aromatics

Safety Manual yet .. gotta lotta things not yet unpacked from the last move

... but those of you who have yours out beside you might wanna comment on the

LD50 tests for toxicity. My guess is that what you have is not gonna

knock you out if we touch your tongue to it because the way you described it

... its an adulterated oil .. adulterated with Sweet Almond .. and probably

not for the purpose of making it more safe .. but because the yield from

Sweet Almond is much higher than from the Bitter .. so the producer or

seller makes more profit. Even so, accidental ingestion of a milliliter

or so could make one pretty sick but I doubt if it would put them at death's

door .. of course .. it is not an oil to be ingested. Even after removal

of Prussic acid .. rectification and such .. there will be some Prussic

acid remaining .. I can't remember the percentage but its low .. like maybe

..10% - .15% or something like that .. far less than 1%. Not all that bad

when we consider that it started out with like 5% - 8% Prussic acid.

 

 

> Is there a test lab in the USA that you, Martin, or anyone can

> recommend... or dispose of it as hazardous waste?? Please feel free to

> contact me off list.

>

 

There are numerous sources for Gas Chromatography and Mass Spectrometry

testing out and about but the least costly analysis is gonna run over $100

for sure and most likely over $150 .. they will cut bargains for routine use

but there are no bargains for one shot deals. So unless you have a

good stash of that Bitter Almond it might be better to get rid of it .. if

... you are uncomfortable about what you have.

 

 

> Please note: I know you don't know me, so it's difficult to know how

> maticulous and cautious I am. Please be aware I do not rely on the

> internet for my information. I seek only opinions, an opportunity to

> get to know others in my field of interest and for good old

> entertainment.

>

 

Asking Martin such questions will certainly get you some serious safety

information .. a more cautious feller I ain't yet run in to. ;-) I printed

and sold his Plant Aromatics Safety Manual for years here in America but it

was so good that we saturated the market .. all the serious folks bought one

and since I was having them professionally printed 1,000 copies at a time to

keep the price down .. I decided that sales had been so good it would take

me two years or so to sell another 1,000 .. so I no longer offer it ..

Martin is the only source .. world wide. Those who don't have that safety

manual oughta think hard about getting one .. they can review it and order

it directly from Martin at the following link .. and .. I have no

commercial interest in this now .. I get no commissions .. but I think folks

do need it .. http://www.aromamedical.com/paper.html

 

 

> Gratefully,

>

> Melissa

>

 

Not sure if I was much help.. but you are welcome. I left your message

attached at the bottom cause nobody has answered it yet .. maybe they don't

know the answer .. I don't know .. but there are some knowledgeable soap

makers on the list.

 

Y'all keep smiling. :-)

 

Butch .. http://www.AV-AT.com <http://www.av-at.com/>

 

PS: Back when I was exporting 10-12 metric tons of EO a year from Turkey ..

the only airline ever to demand MSDS was Lufthansa .. but Germans are known

to be serious about following the rules. ;-) What was real tough was ..

getting Tea Tree and Lemon Myrtle out of Australia .. a real bureaucratic

pain in the butt that was.

 

 

>

>

> --- " Martin Watt " wrote:

> >

> > no one else has replied I suppose I better. Do not use this oil if

> > you do not know what grade it is. Unrectified bitter almond is about

> > as toxic as you can get. There is a safe form called FFPA meaning > free

> from prussic acid, but if the bottle does not state that then do

> > not use it.

> >

> > If you are using any essential oils in soaps you should get proper

> > safety data and not rely on the internet.

> >

> > Martin Watt

> > http://www.aromamedical.com

> >

> > -- I " mazinkosky " <mazinkosky@> wrote:

> > >

> > > purchased a bottle of Bitter Almond EO about a year ago to use

> > > in Cold Process (CP) soaps. In that year, I did a lot of reading.

> > >

> > > I have never used it because of the conflicting information

> > > on its safey. I understand it is considered too toxic for AT

> > > can someone ... tell me if this is indeed safe for use in

> > > soaps (.... CP soaps) and at what percentage per

> > > pound of carrier/base oil is considered safe (I've seen

> > > .5%/lb in some monographs)?

> > >

> > > Thanks for any help on this! Melissa

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Butch!

 

Thank you for taking the time to jot me a note. I will hold onto the

Bitter Almond EO for awhile longer with the hope I can find a way to

have it tested that won't cost me a bundle. Meanwhile, I will continue

my search and wait to see if other soapers on this listserv can give me

their insights too.

 

I appreciate you sharing your point of view.

 

Take care --

 

Melissa

[Guest guest]

Oral LD50 of bitter almond unrectified is lowest 0.44 g/kg (average 0.9)

That makes it one of the most toxic essential oils with death

in humans reported after ingestion of only 7ml.

 

Oral LD50 of bitter almond FFPA is 1.49 g/kg.

 

I suggest you ask your supplier for proof that what they are

selling is the FFPA type. Taking someone's word for it on

such issues is unacceptable.

 

If the oil is diluted in a fixed oil, is that indicated on the bottle?

 

Most MSDs are hardly worth the paper they are printed on and

few give exact toxicity or skin reaction data. Even the ones

issued by the big chemical companies are a scam to satisfy

idiots in Government regulatory departments.

 

Lastly, please bear in mind that there are many on soapers groups who

do not have a clue on the safety of what they use. I have sold my

manual to some of them but there are hundreds more who try to look

knowledgable but who have had no training is such matters. Added to

that some of their suppliers don't know much either. You are dealing

with an aspect of the home production trade where there is little real

expertise as they tend to ignore the safety and other information that

the big producers have.

 

Martin Watt

http://www.aromamedical.com

 

, " mazinkosky " <mazinkosky

wrote:

>

> Hey Butch!

>

> Thank you for taking the time to jot me a note. I will hold onto the

> Bitter Almond EO for awhile longer with the hope I can find a way to

> have it tested that won't cost me a bundle. Meanwhile, I will continue

> my search and wait to see if other soapers on this listserv can give me

> their insights too.

>

> I appreciate you sharing your point of view.

>

> Take care --

>

> Melissa

>