Hydrosols and Preservatives

[Guest guest]

Folks .. I am sending this again because I violated my own principle in not

changing the subject line so that if reflects the actual discussion. And

... I have tried to delete the original post from the archive. ;-) Butch

 

Hello Jessica,

 

I do not produce, sell or use cosmetic products .. or preservatives .. but I

am going to give you my 3 cents on this. It might not really answer your

question but it might enlighten you on a couple of different issues while

posing even more questions. ;-)

 

I just bought 3 gallons of certified organic witch hazel hydrosol to

> use in two of my products. It does not contain alcohol which I am told is

> the best preservative to use.

>

 

As far as I know alcohol is not the best preservative .. the amount needed

to be an effective preservative is too much .. and besides that alcohol

dries the skin .. so unless you are looking to produce a cosmetic that dries

the skin I would think alcohol is not a good choice. I sell Witch Hazel

Hydrosol and feel good in saying that it contains no alcohol.

 

 

> I tried to purchase organic grain alcohol and was told that I need a

> permit to handle industrial alcohol...??? This is way too much hassle for

> me.

>

 

On most things today different states have different requirements .. Thank

The Great Spirits. If the Federal government gets their way States

Rights might become a thing of the past.

 

On Hydrosols .. and preservatives. First .. all Hydrosols exit the still

sterile. If they are then placed in NEW barrels they remain sterile ..

unless .. the distiller cuts them with tap water. New Barrels are a

requirement to ensure against contamination. When I ran my company in

Turkey (1995-2005) I had my own barrels produced by a company in Istanbul ..

they stamped my company logo on the barrels and then shipped them directly

to the stills I wanted to have them. Why? Because even in the U.S. ..

and more so in many Third World and Emerging Market Countries .. hygiene and

general avoidance of bacterial, fungal, etc., contamination is not always a

matter of knowledge .. and if it is .. not a matter of practice. Even more

so today that the economy is on its knees we can count on some businesses

looking for ways to cut costs .. recycling is one of those ways .. but

recycling of barrels used for Hydrosols is a guaranteed way of contaminating

the product because even a drop or three or moisture remaining in that

barrel will start culture growth within hours.

 

Unfortunately .. now that I am back living in the U.S.A. it is not

convenient for me to do the things I could do while living in Turkey.

 

I have always tested ALL of my Hydrosols for contamination .. it is an

inexpensive test .. $30 a whack .. and the testing facility is shown on my

site at http://www.av-at.com/hydrosol.html

 

I have been seeking an uncontaminated Neroli Hydrosol for almost 18 months

... I need 5 or 6 each 55 gallon drums and I have tested many .. all

failed. The latest test arrived from the lab just yesterday and the

results were:

 

Total Plate Count*

14,800

 

Total Coliform*

<1

 

Yeast Count*

2,700

 

Mold Count*

40

 

* Colony forming units per 100 milliliters

 

Note: Bottled water standards are, Total plate count of <500 per 100 ml's

and Total Coliform negative (<1) per 100 ml's.

 

The Hydrosol tested does not meet the standard for drinking water.

 

I obviously will not purchase this Hydrosol.

 

The point here is .. if you had a Hydrosol that tested this badly .. and its

not the worst I have ever tested .. could you or should you be concerned

about preserving it? The answer is obviously NO and even if the answer was

YES .. a question might be .. in what condition is your Witch Hazel Hydrosol

in now?

 

Some might think I am straying with this next statement .. but I am not

because there is a direct connection. We often see folks asking .. maybe

more accurate is assuming .. that since a carrier like Jojoba or

Fractionated Coconut has an indefinite shelf life .. that these carriers

will protect an essential oil if it is mixed in .. that it will extend the

normally expected life of the EO. This is just not good logic and it is

totally false because (1) Though microbial/fungal contamination can ruin a

Carrier .. its Rancidity that we are most concerned with in Carriers. While

we are also concerned about contamination in EO (though some EO .. Oregano

for example .. can protect themselves from contamination) its chemical

changes and/or chemical degradation of the oil that is our major concern.

 

So what is the connection? Any preservative we use is going to protect the

strongest of the weak .. like in reverse the strength of a chain is

determined by testing its weakest link. So .. we might effectively protect

one ingredient but not another ingredient .. and if there is contamination

to begin with .. use of a preservative is a waste of money. There

are preservatives out and about that can kick big bad bug butts right and

left but the amount we would need to use .. and the nature of the

preservative itself .. will probably render the final product useless .. the

odor and the pH and maybe even the color will change and .. we might then

have produced a product that can easily irritate the skin .. or even worse

... one that can cause sensitization.

 

 

> Anyone know of any other options? Can I use any cosmetic preservative? I

> am wondering if I can get away with not using a preservative in a formula of

> 90% rosewater and 10% witch hazel.

>

 

The smart folks can answer the above .. those who deal in cosmetic products

... my 1 cent position on that question is that even if you start with a pure

product .. end users are most likely to contaminate any product they get

their hands on. Telling folks that they *should NOT touch bottle rims, or

inside bottle caps with fingers, or put unused Hydrosols/Cosmetic products

back into the container .. and that they should avoid direct sunlight and

avoid extreme heat for long periods of time .. is wise .. but many people

will not listen to this advice.*

 

*If you begin the process with a Hydrosol that is already contaminated ..

like many of those I have tested and rejected .. then all bets are off from

the git go!*

**

*Note that I have avoided use of the term " Rose Water " because it is not

always what it appears to be .. I have always and will always use the term

Hydrosol or Hydrolat because it makes it more difficult for the con artists

to bamboozle us.*

**

*Finally .. I reckon that adding 10% Witch Hazel Hydrosol to 90% Rose

Hydrosol might look good on the label but I wonder what it will really do

that could not be accomplished by 100% uncontaminated Rose Hydrosol.*

 

 

> Your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

>

 

Not sure if you will appreciate my input or not .. cause like I said above

... I doubt if it answered your question .. but I hope it created some more

questions. ;-)

 

 

> Jessica Burman

> http://www.cocoonapothecary.com

>

 

Y'all have a good one .. and keep smiling. :-)

 

Butch ... http://www.AV-AT.com <http://www.av-at.com/>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Butch!

 

That saved me hours of research. Like all of your emails, it was incredibly

informative.

 

>As far as I know alcohol is not the best preservative .. the amount needed

>to be an effective preservative is too much .. and besides that alcohol

>dries the skin .. so unless you are looking to produce a cosmetic that dries

>the skin I would think alcohol is not a good choice. I sell Witch Hazel

>Hydrosol and feel good in saying that it contains no alcohol.

 

Good to hear because my customers don't want alcohol in their products

regardless of percentage. They look for alcohol-free toners so I'd be happy to

take this ingredient off of my label.

 

>*Note that I have avoided use of the term " Rose Water " because it is not

>always what it appears to be .. I have always and will always use the term

>Hydrosol or Hydrolat because it makes it more difficult for the con artists

>to bamboozle us.*

 

I prefer 'hydrosol' as well but people don't seem to know what it is yet. It is

hard to know when to educate your customers or when to dumb things down.

 

*Finally .. I reckon that adding 10% Witch Hazel Hydrosol to 90% Rose

>Hydrosol might look good on the label but I wonder what it will really do

>that could not be accomplished by 100% uncontaminated Rose Hydrosol.*

 

Witch Hazel seems to work very well on acne so I added it for the additional

astrigent properties. Besides, the 3 gallons have already been shipped - I have

to use them now:)

 

 

>Not sure if you will appreciate my input or not .. cause like I said above

>.. I doubt if it answered your question .. but I hope it created some more

>questions. ;-)

 

Your imput is golden.

 

 

 Jessica Burman

http://www.cocoonapothecary.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Butch Owen wrote:

 

Keep writn, as ya can Old Hoss...

 

New puter here, and new operatin system, so didn't mount old drive in it....

 

--

Gary W. Bourbonais

L'Hermite Aromatique

A.J.P. (GIA)