OT: Liberals & Conservatives

[Guest guest]

Hey Bill,

 

>

>

> Hey, something has always bothered me. I know what conservative and

> liberal used to mean. Then I learned they didn't mean the same as the

> dictionary says. So, when speaking about political parties. What is

> Liberal and what is Conservative?

>

 

I expect that anybody on this list could answer this question and all the

answers would be different. ;-)

 

It would be safer to approach an answer from an academic point of view

rather than a personal one. And though this post might appear to be long

... believe me .. its short. ;-)

 

My primary specialty while in uniform was Military Police but Regular Army

Officers must also have an alternate specialty .. mine was Foreign Area

Officer .. a type of political military analyst. I also taught some

political science subjects at the John F. Kennedy School of International

Studies .. so I'll stick to academic discussion here. ;-)

 

To really distinguish between the two terms .. Conservative and Liberal ..

would be an exercise in futility and little agreement could be reached on

this list or any any other group. One problem we would run into is that

many folks try to identify the other side with descriptions that should

really be used to describe extremists of either side.

 

I suspect that your question is a " ringer " type question and you already

know the answer. Trying to distinguish between what was and what is and

how what was became what is is is difficult to get a handle on .. but not

knowing and not caring might be the most comfortable position for folks.

;-)

 

Its kinda like asking .. which direction is East and which direction is

West? The answer is gonna depend on where you are when you ask the

question. ;-)

 

Also .. the definitions found in dictionaries and such are classic but not

necessarily what is practiced in the real world .. nor are the ideal

charters of various political parties adhered to .. or even given attention

from time to time.

 

Originally (historically) Liberals were what now could be described as

Conservative .. and vise versa.

 

Go back to ancient times and the systems of royalty and feudalism were

considered Conservative .. they did not want change .. and those who opposed

them were considered to be Liberal. In the late 1600's, John Locke began

actions and thoughts that some say credit him as being the Father on Modern

Liberalism .. but his thoughts ran along these lines .. " " No one ought to

harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions. " I am right on

with that .. but I am not a Liberal.

 

The American Declaration of Independence echoed Locke's words with, " All men

are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain

unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of

happiness: that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among

men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. " The

Founding Fathers were classic Liberals. I am more than right on with the

thoughts of the Founding Fathers .. but I am not a Liberal.

 

An extreme contradiction to this is the John Birchers .. who basically say,

" Don't mess with my life, liberty or property. " And nobody could call

them Liberal. The Birchers are anti totalitarian, anti socialist and lean

toward a Right Wing (which most folks incorrectly call Conservative)

Libertarian philosophy. The Birchers always found a Communist behind every

tree .. they could do this even in the desert. I am right on with the

basic comment in parenthesis above .. but I dislike the Birchers as much as

I do Socialism.

 

But today, British political philosopher John Gray describes Conservatism as

being an attack on humanity and he says the source of this mentality is

religious ideologies. He says morality is an illusion and humanity is a

species engaged in wiping out other forms of life on Earth. Quite a turn

about there. ;-) Though I do believe (and history supports this) that

religion has been one of the causes of man's inhumanity to man, and I do

believe that overpopulation can destroy our environment .. I am certainly

not able to share his extended philosophy.

 

I think that today a good definition of Conservative would be one who

believes that we should preserve the best in our society .. and oppose what

they see as radical change. They believe in maintaining tradition and

traditional values .. but this belief is like my example above .. it changes

based on where you are at the time. For example, while in Tennessee I can

honestly say that I am a Conservative .. NOT a Republican .. a

Conservative. I live in a Blue Dog Democrat environment. But during

all of my years in Turkey I was a Liberal .. I wanted change.

 

The Islamic Fundamentalist is a Conservative .. he sees non practicing

Muslims as being Liberal. I could not share their Conservative views.

 

Democrats are generally considered to be Liberals .. but that is not really

the case .. one should not make such a broad statement. If I read their

party platform I find many things I agree with.

 

Republicans are generally considered to be Conservative .. but that is not

really the case .. one should not make such a broad statement. Many

Liberals will find things they agree with in the GOP platform.

 

The parties have switched roles over the years .. for example, Abe Lincoln

was a Republican .. but it can certainly be said that he was not a

Conservative .. and though Jefferson Davis (President of the Confederacy)

was actually against slavery .. it can not be said that he was a Liberal.

 

Neither party does a good job at following the ideals they claim to abide by

... or the ideals that should drive their efforts. I believe that in time we

will see a need for a third party .. and likely it is that I will be able to

more closely associate with their values because on many issues I am

eclectic. And .. I have no tolerance for extremism regardless of what one

calls it or what clothes it wears.

 

America once had a Democratic-Republican Party. ;-)

 

If we wanna get real personal we can say that those who give total support

to the Obama administration today can generally (though not exclusively) be

called Liberal .. though they prefer to be called Progressives. Those who

also believe that we do need health care reform, energy independence, better

educational standards and performance and better relations with other

countries .. but do not believe that the actions of the current

administration can accomplish these goals with current plans without putting

the nation in deep debt .. and increasing the size of government .. which is

a user of wealth rather than a creator of wealth .. can generally (though

not exclusively) be called Conservatives .. but here in TN we find almost

all Blue Dog Democrats to be Conservative when it comes to dealing with

these issues.

 

Maybe a good but simple explanation would be that Conservatives believe in

Ronald Reagan's philosophy that government is a part of the problem rather

than the solution .. but there are many Democrats who also believe this ..

so it would not be fair to say that being a Democrat means one is a

Liberal. Those who believe that government exists to solve problems can

generally be considered to be Progressives (or Liberal) but there are some

Republicans who also go along with that line of thinking.

 

Lemme close by saying that just today I wrote to some friends .. regarding

the upcoming Pakistani offensive against the Taliban in South

Waziristan. A retired Pakistani Brigadier General (Javaid Hussain) was

quoted as saying he sees some problems with the operation. I know him

well .. sat beside him for one year during the Turkish Command & Staff

Course at the Turkish War College (1981-1982). He and I were the only

foreigners in the class .. and while I got along well with my counterparts ..

ran with them and drank with them, etc., he kept himself insulated. The

Turkish officers were too Liberal for him. He was an Islamic Fundamentalist

... he would not drink or even go out to dinner with the Turks .. and he

hated America and Americans.

 

We were both Majors at the time .. and our Class Sponsor then is now a

retired Turkish Major General. He and I got along well and remain friends

to this day .. and he also could not tolerate Hussain. It is my

opinion that if Hussain has doubts about anything Pakistan can do .. it

either means they are in deep trouble because he was a hard core

Conservative Islamic Nationalist .. or .. it means that he sympathizes with

the Taliban .. which would not surprise me at all.

 

During the time I was in Turkey I was philosophically a Liberal Kemalist

... a follower of the path Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Father of Turkey .. laid

out for Turkey .. that was modernization, industrialization, Westernization

, secularization and democracy. The retired Major General I spoke of was

also a Kemalist .. but he was a Conservative in that he did not want to see

the military lose control to an Islamic government .. which in fact would

have been Conservative but because they wanted change the general saw them

as being Liberal. ;-) So the general and I had (still have) the same

beliefs but technically we were (still are) opposites in one regard.

Hussain was also a Conservative but not acceptable to the Turkish general

because he was an Islamic Conservative.

 

Confused yet? ;-)

> Thanks,

> Bill

 

Welcome U B .. y'all have a good one .. and keep smiling. :-) Butch