OT: Health Care Bill ** Who Influences Our Government?

[Guest guest]

Howdy Susan,

 

> Butch, big multi-billion dollar corporations love to see the American

> people divided. They work very hard to drown out the voices of the American

> people.

>

Not sure how or why you came up with that conclusion but it fits right in

with the Blame Big Business rhetoric used by those who wish to see

government control of the private sector. Considering that our government

has screwed up and/or bankrupted every venture they have ever taken on it

appears that logic is not being applied. We have no choice but to deal

with government but we can make choices when we deal with corporations .. to

a point. For example, I won't purchase anything produced by General

Electric .. lots of good reasons for this.

 

> Regardless of how anyone feels about liberals or progressives,

> conservatives or independents, we are all Americans.

>

Those of us who are legal are Americans .. and that does not mean we must

hold citizenship .. just be legal. I spent thousands of bucks and lots of

time getting my wife a Green Card but I am soon going to see others get one

a lot easier than we got hers.

 

> But it doesn't matter. Liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican,

> Green Party or Tea Party, it's the big corporations who are hiring full-time

> lobbyists to represent them and spending millions to manipulate our media,

> our politicians, and public opinion.

>

One of the reasons that even Obama could not stick to his promise to not

hire Lobbyists was because they serve a useful purpose. Lobbyists are like

pets .. they serve some purpose or we would not keep them around .. while at

the same time they occasionally destroy things and crap all over the place.

;-) The symbiotic relationship betwixt Lobbyists and the Gummit is like

that of Big Pharma and the FDA .. both do the research the Gummit doesn't

have the time and money to conduct. And .. both have their own best

interests at heart .. otherwise they would be fools .. or candidates for

Sainthood. If we want to distinguish between Lobbyists and Lawyers we will

need a tool so fine that we'll need a microscope to see it. The only way to

avoid Lobbyists is to have a Totalitarian Gummit that makes all decisions

based on the weight and strength of the gorillas sitting around the

conference table.

 

I''m not sure there is a way to avoid hypocrisy .. maybe outlawing

government and organized religion would work .. but then we would be stuck

with chaos.

 

> They are running this country, not us.

>

I can't recall when the last time was that citizens ran the country. It

was probably some time around that period when the ink on the Declaration of

Independence was still wet. Citizens can have a BIG say in how their rural

city and county gummit is run .. less so in major cities .. less so in state

gummit .. and absolutely none in the federal gummit. As a minimum there

will always be at least 51% of the folks who are not satisfied. Over time,

that percentage will change upward or downward depending on lots of things

... to include what we can get for ourselves vs what might be good for the

country. We see now that the percentage of folks who various polls claim

are not happy with this Bill is still in the 70% range .. and we can bet our

bottom dollar that inside 6 months this percentage will drastically change

... one way or the other. This is a fact and its what both political

parties are betting their futures on now.

 

> We Americans should be running our government, not fighting each other,

> demonizing each other.

>

Nice it would be .. but unrealistic. In 1215, the England forced the Magna

Carta on King John because his gummit was running them over. In 1776, our

Founding Fathers published a Declaration of Independence because they

believed we were being run over by Fat Farmer King George. Then in 1787

they created our Constitution .. a fantastic document it is. In 1848, Marx

and Engels composed what we call the Communist Manifesto because they

believed the people were being run over. These are but a few of the

revolutionary and philosophical moves throughout history that were based on

perceived inequality. For a time, all of them worked well (to some

degree) but in time they all were fine tuned and some of those modifications

were modified but in one way or the other there was forward movement ..

sometimes three steps forward and two steps back.

 

Our Constitution has been modified but 27 times .. and it still is the

shortest and oldest written constitution still in use by any nation in the

world. But .. it is not possible to legislate against ignorance and greed

... and in my opinion we have not seen such wise and avant garde Patriots in

our government since our Founding Fathers. They gave us a clear path but

our elected officials in both the Executive and Legislative Branches .. as

well as those appointed in the Judicial Branch .. have made many decisions

that have allowed us to stray from that path. Our Founding Fathers were

heroic rebels .. such folks can not survive in government today. Just as

Frank Serpico found it tough to be himself inside the NYC police department

... freshmen entering Congress are soon consumed by the self serving powerful

positions they find themselves in and they go along with the program because

everyone else does .. if they wanted to be rebels they would be ostracized

by their party and isolated. Bottom line .. they would be

disenfranchised. Many folks (to include me) will give Ron Paul credit for

having some ideas that are worthwhile .. but many folks (like me) would not

waste a vote on him because we believe that our system is not going to allow

such folks to survive .. even his own party would castrate him on the floor

of the Congress. If Jesus Christ were to suddenly appear on Earth ..

unless He was prepared to pull off some miracles in public .. He would

probably be locked up in a Nut Ward and be labeled as an anti government

revolutionary who is under the influence of hallucinatory drugs.

 

Even though our Constitution is the shortest and oldest one still in use ..

most of our population .. to include our elected officials .. don't always

know what it really says. Lots of assumptions are made and lots of quotes

from other documents are often attributed to the Constitution .. but they

aren't there. What is there is often disregarded or misinterpreted or

abused .. like Executive Privilege .. one of the most abused portions of the

law .. abused by presidents from both parties for as long as I can

remember. And when this happens it further separates the government from

the will of the people or the Owners of the Constitution. The Constitution

was " supposed " to be a declaration made by the People .. not by the newly

formed government and not even by the Founding Fathers. Also disregarded

is the 10th Amendment .. which has been so liberally interpreted that it is

now being challenged by many states. This too was a process of evolution

... a dangerous one if we look at it as a matter of principle .. which I

think we should .. because if we don't then the Federal Gummit can in time

become even more dictatorial than they are now.

 

So .. the idea of a government " Of The People, By The People, For the

People " is not really codified .. though its mentioned in Lincoln's

Gettysburg Address.

 

> My opinion doesn't come from the I-net either. It comes from first hand

> experience, as a person who has lived in England as a teenage military brat

> who observed the medical system via my English friends, as someone who

> formerly participated with American big insurance as an hrd, (because their

> practices are antithetical to my personal values I regret this now) as a

> full time caregiver of my disabled child whose survival has been heavily

> dependent on the American medical community, and as a consumer of American

> health insurance and a recipient of their immoral and unethical practices.

>

 

I believe that you believe as you state here and I believe you have good

reasons for believing as you do. My experiences are different than yours.

I have lived more than half my adult life outside the U.S.A. Close to 30

years total outside. I have seen Universal Health Care programs that

ranged from pretty danged good to absofrigginlutely atrocious .. and though

I have not had to personally live with any European health care system I

have close friends and some relatives in European countries today who will

argue for and against their health care systems. What we see depends on

where we are sitting .. and opinions are based in great part on our personal

experiences. Some have good experiences and some don't. I've been doing

a tad of research on comparing health care systems but it is not ready for

posting yet. Its danged confusing data.

 

I do have personal experience living with universal health care systems in

Turkey and in Russia .. and they both have some positives and some negatives

... but they are not easy to compare to those in Europe. Fact is, the

Canadian and American health care systems are not all that easy to compare

when all the variables are laid out.

 

> Because my opinion is based on real life experience, I am skeptical of

> what I see online, and tend to be skeptical that others might get their

> opinions transplanted into their brains by Fox News.

>

 

Good it is to be skeptical of the news media but its probably not good to

assume that Fox News is a tool of Right Wing Propagandists. I watch CNN,

Fox and MSNBC .. both Fox and CNN have a lot of interaction between Left and

Right .. their panels almost always have members of both sides .. but as of

today I have not seen a single Conservative given fair air time on Maddow or

Olberman's programs. I say again that Fox is not just Glenn Beck (and I'll

add Hannity) and MSNBC is not just Maddow and Olberman. Likewise, CNN is

not just Anderson Cooper and Wolf Blitzer. When I owned my Turkish company

I once gave administrative support to a Cronkite-Ward production in Turkey

... and though Walter Cronkite was long considered to be the most trusted

name in news .. and in fact was a pretty nice feller .. I believe that there

was a side of him off camera that the American people never saw.

 

> In my opinion, based on my years of experience, (I'm no spring chicken,)

> our health care system would not be substandard if we could get big

> insurance out of the way.

>

 

I am not ready to accept that our health care system is substandard .. at

least as far as quality of care is concerned. I think in that area its

right up there at the top. Cost of our health care system is down there

around the bottom but I am not ready to accept that its due to anything

insurance companies have done .. they are not into increasing costs .. they

are into decreasing costs .. they survive by denying claims when they can.

The current bill .. as written .. will do little to nothing to address cost

and we have to accept that cost drives the train when we want to reform

anything. There are many reasons why our health care system gets less bang

for the buck than does the systems in some other countries .. that's a part

of the research I am doing now. The reason why such research is not easy

is because I have to separate the white from the black in the chicken manure

when researching. Its too easy to accept what one believes but I am doing

what I can to not do that. I really want to prove myself wrong and in some

cases .. on some points .. I have been able to do that. For now I will just

say that the differences in our system and those of some other countries are

due in part to our form of government, our philosophical attitudes, and the

demands made on us as a World Power. We must change many things if we

want to create a sustainable government .. we don't have one now. More on

that later.

 

> With millions of people unable to access care, it really doesn't matter

> how well our doctors and hospitals are capable of doing their jobs when big

> insurance prevents them from doing it. All of the state of the art equipment

> in the world doesn't help us when the insurance companies are the ones who

> decide whether a doctor can use it.

>

 

True it is that there are some problems there but everyone will not

experience the same problems so there will be differences of opinion.

Someone wrote earlier that they thought Humana ate crap and howled at the

moon .. my family has had outstanding service from Humana .. so what are we

to think?

 

> As long as the big corporations continue to run this country, they will

> continue to drown out the voices of Americans in our government.

>

 

As long as we have elections .. big corporations, special interest groups,

unions and anyone else who wants an inside office in our government .. will

drown out the voices of the people. One does not have to be a political

scientist to see big donors being rewarded all the time .. it just happened

in the last 48 hours .. pay back for union support. Those who think the

latest news regarding ACORN going broke means that they are out of business

are sleeping on the job .. ACORN is alive and well .. they just

changed clothes and changed signs outside their offices .. they are a

Hydra. How can we get any Congress .. Democrat or Republican .. to pass a

bill that will hamstring their own members and cause them to have to sink or

swim based on their performance or lack thereof? The answer is probably

Rebellion! I don't mean armed rebellion .. I mean walking the walk instead

of just saying " I'm angry and I'm not gonna take it any more! " But that is

asking too much of our people .. it just ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

If we don't curtail government interference in our lives today and tomorrow

... there might well become a time .. maybe generations from now .. where

armed rebellion will not seem like such a bad solution.

 

> I don't think the Democrats dragged their feet prior to this, and I

> don't think they rushed anything through this time. Big insurance doesn't

> want reform. They never have. They are extremely powerful. They've prevented

> reform before and they full intend to now. This time around, the Democrats

> learned from the lessons of the past and did what needed to be done.

>

 

We have a difference of opinion of who did what and why .. and odds are slim

to none that we will ever agree on this. ;-)

 

> Ideologically, the Republicans believe in free enterprise. I'm obviously

> not a Republican and I also believe in the free enterprise system. But I can

> see that our big corporations do not have the interests of the American

> people at heart. I believe that the power needs to be with the people, not

> with big corporations.

>

 

I said what I have to say on that .. above.

 

> And our power is gained through our government.

>

 

I disagree .. and it should not be that way. Our government's power should

be gained through US!

 

> We Americans have no power with our corporations. Big corporations have

> us right where they want us.

>

 

In the Capitalist system big corporations have power over the government ..

in Communist or Totalitarian systems personal egos and illogical ideology

has power over the government.

 

> Susan

>

 

Y'all have a nice Sunday .. and keep smiling. :-)

 

Butch ... http://www.AV-AT.com <http://www.av-at.com/>

 

 

 

> > But I will NOT even come close to agreeing that the U.S. Health

> > System is not nearly as good as those in the rest of the Free

> > World. I did not get this opinion from the I-Net.

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Butch, as you said, everybody has a different point of view. I have been quite

pleased with the USPS, with our federal highway system, and with my son's health

care under Medicaid. I have not been pleased with Exxon Oil or Enron to name

two examples.

 

I'm not saying corporations are better or worse than the government. Both can

corrupt because they involve human beings. The main difference is that

corporations function strictly as instruments of profit. Nothing wrong with

that on it's face, but corporations do not serve the people and it's naive to

expect them to. Sometimes the pursuit of profit can be in direct conflict with

the interests of the people. The economic crisis is one example of this. In

some cases privatization harms the American people. I believe the health

insurance industry is a prime example of that.

 

On the other hand, the American government is an instrument of the American

people. It's only function is to serve us. It has no other reason to exist.

It serves us in many ways. When it fails us, we must hold it accountable.

 

When corporations fail us our only option is regulation or boycott. However, as

they grow more powerful, they are harder to control. I do not believe

corporations can be U.S. citizens. Therefore I believe it conflicts with the

interests of American citizens when the U.S. government become an instrument of

the corporation to help increase corporate profits. Mandated health insurance

is an example of this. As the mega corporations become more and more powerful,

the average American citizen continues to lose. I hope that the American people

will find their voice.

 

Private health insurance works fine until they cancel your coverage because you

are no longer profitable, or exclude needed care because they do not wish to pay

for it. I've seen this many times both in my career, in my private life and

that of friends and family. In my opinion, it should concern every American

that this is going on, regardless of whether one's own plan hasn't let them down

yet. There has been much public testimony concerning this. It is strictly

about profit and not health care for every American.

 

In my opinion, we need to do surgery on the American health care system and

remove the cancerous tumor that is the health insurance industry. It does not

serve the American people but exists to profit off us without providing anything

of value. I believe there are far better options.

 

That's all I will say on this. We could debate all day, and neither will change

the opinion of the other. I am thankful we at least have freedom of speech and

the freedom to agree to disagree.

 

Susan

 

, Butch Owen <butchowen wrote:

>

> Howdy Susan,

Considering that our government

> has screwed up and/or bankrupted every venture they have ever taken on it

> appears that logic is not being applied.

[Guest guest]

i agree with you, totally.  Also, in reading the bill, i found nothing in there

that requires that we buy insurance from for-profit companies.  If we can't

afford it, we can't afford it. Period.  You can't get blood out of a turnip, as

they say.  That is where the government policy would come in.  And i look

forward to the day when, no matter what policy we have, no one comes into our

hospital room and says " Sorry, you need to leave, your insurance company won't

pay for anymore days, tests, whatever. "   The Medicare options, as overhauled a

few years ago, are also a curse on the American people.  Medicaid paid for

prescriptions.  It still does.  But if you have any medicare at all anymore,

medicaid doesn't cover your presciptions.  You need that Medicare part D. 

Which means even if you get the cheapest one possible, you pay at least $3 per

name medication, and a dollar for generics.  Which doesn't sound like a lot,

until you realize most

people old enough or sick enough to be on Medicare take an average o 8--12 meds

per month.  That is an addition of about $30 per month onto a budget where

people can't even afford food, and SSI has been cut in Calif. about $100 per

month over the last year.  Its insane.   So now most of us are going without

meds we really need (at least until they get old enough so that there can be

generic forms) or taking them only every 3 days, cutting doses in half, etc. 

They can tell me they're trying to kill the poor, but there is no way they can

say they're trying to save money.  Because all of these people (including me)

will eventually have to end up in the hospital to regulate their conditions,

(then they DO get their meds there), and that ends up costing a lot more than

the meds they refused to cover.  Just like they stopped covering dental care

for adults.  Stupid!!  Don't they realize that gum disease can cause heart

problems?  So they'd rather

pay $100,000 for a double by-pass than $35 a year for a cleaning???  All that

was Schwartzenegger's idea.

 

 

--- On Sun, 3/28/10, Susan <nineyearfocus wrote:

 

 

Susan <nineyearfocus

Re: OT: Health Care Bill ** Who Influences Our

Government?

 

Sunday, March 28, 2010, 4:43 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

Butch, as you said, everybody has a different point of view. I have been quite

pleased with the USPS, with our federal highway system, and with my son's health

care under Medicaid. I have not been pleased with Exxon Oil or Enron to name two

examples.

 

I'm not saying corporations are better or worse than the government. Both can

corrupt because they involve human beings. The main difference is that

corporations function strictly as instruments of profit. Nothing wrong with that

on it's face, but corporations do not serve the people and it's naive to expect

them to. Sometimes the pursuit of profit can be in direct conflict with the

interests of the people. The economic crisis is one example of this. In some

cases privatization harms the American people. I believe the health insurance

industry is a prime example of that.

 

On the other hand, the American government is an instrument of the American

people. It's only function is to serve us. It has no other reason to exist. It

serves us in many ways. When it fails us, we must hold it accountable.

 

When corporations fail us our only option is regulation or boycott. However, as

they grow more powerful, they are harder to control. I do not believe

corporations can be U.S. citizens. Therefore I believe it conflicts with the

interests of American citizens when the U.S. government become an instrument of

the corporation to help increase corporate profits. Mandated health insurance is

an example of this. As the mega corporations become more and more powerful, the

average American citizen continues to lose. I hope that the American people will

find their voice.

 

Private health insurance works fine until they cancel your coverage because you

are no longer profitable, or exclude needed care because they do not wish to pay

for it. I've seen this many times both in my career, in my private life and that

of friends and family. In my opinion, it should concern every American that this

is going on, regardless of whether one's own plan hasn't let them down yet.

There has been much public testimony concerning this. It is strictly about

profit and not health care for every American.

 

In my opinion, we need to do surgery on the American health care system and

remove the cancerous tumor that is the health insurance industry. It does not

serve the American people but exists to profit off us without providing anything

of value. I believe there are far better options.

 

That's all I will say on this. We could debate all day, and neither will change

the opinion of the other. I am thankful we at least have freedom of speech and

the freedom to agree to disagree.

 

Susan

 

, Butch Owen <butchowen@. ..> wrote:

>

> Howdy Susan,

Considering that our government

> has screwed up and/or bankrupted every venture they have ever taken on it

> appears that logic is not being applied.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Just wanted to mention...Medicaid DOES pay for prescriptions...100% for children

and pregnant women. Everyone else pays like $1-3.