Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind, study finds

[Guest guest]

Hmmm. what a surprise. Does it prove the reality of spirit or does

it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the brain? :-)

 

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

2003118880_shrooms11.html

 

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a feature on

the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the people in the study

felt that the experience with magic mushroom was spiritually uplifting and mind

expanding, and that some considered the experience so moving as to be a life

changing seminal event. All that tells us is that the substance has extensive

potential medical benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But

what's G-d have to do with it?

 

< wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does it

prove the reality of spirit or does

it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the brain? :-)

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

2003118880_shrooms11.html

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind. As such, I

think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come from?

Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and science,

these are very serious questions.

 

Bob

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a

feature on the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the

people in the study felt that the experience with magic mushroom was

spiritually uplifting and mind expanding, and that some considered the

experience so moving as to be a life changing seminal event. All

that tells us is that the substance has extensive potential medical

benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But what's

G-d have to do with it?

>

> < wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does

it prove the reality of spirit or does

> it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the brain? :-)

>

> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

> 2003118880_shrooms11.html

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In my very humble view, this discussion is based up a fallacy. Our ability to

comprehend and perceive is limited by our bodies and our perceptive awareness.

To acknowledge or deny the presence of Creator, Omnipotent and Omniscent who is

beyond the physical realm of the dimensions that our life is limited to is

fallacious, and is comparable to asking someone blind from birth to describe the

color red, and when they can't, declaring that there is no red. Because one

relies on one's thought process to deduce the existance of G-d doesn't mean that

G-d is within the human mind. Rather, it only means that the limited logic of

the mind is as far as our thoughts are able to take us. Because something feels

" other " or " different " doesn't render that sensation spiritual or G-dly, only

aware, in a different sense.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

 

Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote:

the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind. As such, I

think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come from?

Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and science,

these are very serious questions.

 

Bob

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a

feature on the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the

people in the study felt that the experience with magic mushroom was

spiritually uplifting and mind expanding, and that some considered the

experience so moving as to be a life changing seminal event. All

that tells us is that the substance has extensive potential medical

benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But what's

G-d have to do with it?

>

> < wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does

it prove the reality of spirit or does

> it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the brain? :-)

>

> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

> 2003118880_shrooms11.html

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Yahuda,

 

Perhaps Bob is speaking of the concept of God, not the experience of God,

being a logical process. IMHO, boundary dissolution, whether caused by

psychoactive plants, or wholesome epiphenies, is about disolving the

logical constructs of the mind and entering (and most importantly,

experiencing) the " main current " . Experience can come in the form of

perception of the " other " , or a strange boundary-less coexistence of self as

other.(and many combinations of both).

 

Kip Roseman LAc, Dipl CH

 

 

On Behalf Of yehuda frischman

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:44 AM

 

Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind, study

finds

 

 

 

In my very humble view, this discussion is based up a fallacy. Our ability

to comprehend and perceive is limited by our bodies and our perceptive

awareness. To acknowledge or deny the presence of Creator, Omnipotent and

Omniscent who is beyond the physical realm of the dimensions that our life

is limited to is fallacious, and is comparable to asking someone blind from

birth to describe the color red, and when they can't, declaring that there

is no red. Because one relies on one's thought process to deduce the

existance of G-d doesn't mean that G-d is within the human mind. Rather, it

only means that the limited logic of the mind is as far as our thoughts are

able to take us. Because something feels " other " or " different " doesn't

render that sensation spiritual or G-dly, only aware, in a different sense.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

 

Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001@ <pemachophel2001%40> >

wrote:

the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind. As such, I

think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come from?

Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and science,

these are very serious questions.

 

Bob

 

@ <%40>

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a

feature on the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the

people in the study felt that the experience with magic mushroom was

spiritually uplifting and mind expanding, and that some considered the

experience so moving as to be a life changing seminal event. All

that tells us is that the substance has extensive potential medical

benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But what's

G-d have to do with it?

>

> < wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does

it prove the reality of spirit or does

> it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the brain? :-)

>

> http://seattletimes <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/>

..nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

> 2003118880_shrooms11.html

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

> http://www.chineseh <http://www..org> erbacademy.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Kip,

 

Again, I respectfully contend that you and Bob are missing the point. A

divine, omnipotent, omniscient unlimited Being is not something that the

limited human mind can conceptually grasp, nor is that transcendancy

comprehendable through a process of logical development or enlightenment. It

is an intrinsic mistake to equate uplifting experiences with perception of the

divine, no matter what instigates them, be they through drugs, fasting,

meditation or other means.

 

Going back to Todd's statement concerning the study on magic mushroom:

 

" Does it prove the reality of spirit or does it just show that god is

merely a chemical experience in the brain "

 

His analysis of the study leads him perforce to two possible conclusions,

either:

 

1. psychedelic drugs prove the reality of spirituality (ie. G-d ),

or

2. What is experienced while on psychedelic drugs is a deluded spirituality

or perception of G-d, which in reality is rather an altered, chemically induced

state.

 

I outright reject both conclusions. Rather I see his conclusions as mixed up

and completely prejudice. Altered states of perception of reality induced by

psychedelics are (to quote Todd) " merely chemical experience in the brain. "

Nothing more, nothing less. That chemical experience is no more profoundly

spiritual than the ingestion of MSG, which " expands the mind " in our perception

of flavor. Yet, I know of no sane person who would contend that eating

instant soup is a spiritual experience. What is spirituality is not the scope

of this group so I won't go there, but what I will reiterate (as ,

the eminent founder and owner of CHA has seen fit to address this issue) is

that the term he uses, G-d, by the definition and the understanding used in

traditional monotheism, is the One and only Creator of the universe, is the

Eternal creator of the realm of time, is transcendent (apart from the created

universe) and yet also imminently omnipotent and

omniscient, and therefore is integrally involved in the daily affairs of every

created object and living being. As I have stated, for one to understand or

experience that which is beyond their cognitive ability is ludicrous, and to

suggest that psychedelics are able to allow a limited, fatal being as a person

is, to transcend their temporal and spacial existance is equally absurd.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST,SER, TJM

 

Kip Roseman <kip wrote:

Hi Yahuda,

 

Perhaps Bob is speaking of the concept of God, not the experience of God,

being a logical process. IMHO, boundary dissolution, whether caused by

psychoactive plants, or wholesome epiphenies, is about disolving the

logical constructs of the mind and entering (and most importantly,

experiencing) the " main current " . Experience can come in the form of

perception of the " other " , or a strange boundary-less coexistence of self as

other.(and many combinations of both).

 

Kip Roseman LAc, Dipl CH

 

 

On Behalf Of yehuda frischman

Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:44 AM

 

Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind, study

finds

 

In my very humble view, this discussion is based up a fallacy. Our ability

to comprehend and perceive is limited by our bodies and our perceptive

awareness. To acknowledge or deny the presence of Creator, Omnipotent and

Omniscent who is beyond the physical realm of the dimensions that our life

is limited to is fallacious, and is comparable to asking someone blind from

birth to describe the color red, and when they can't, declaring that there

is no red. Because one relies on one's thought process to deduce the

existance of G-d doesn't mean that G-d is within the human mind. Rather, it

only means that the limited logic of the mind is as far as our thoughts are

able to take us. Because something feels " other " or " different " doesn't

render that sensation spiritual or G-dly, only aware, in a different sense.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

 

Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001@ <pemachophel2001%40> >

wrote:

the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind. As such, I

think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come from?

Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and science,

these are very serious questions.

 

Bob

 

@ <%40>

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a

feature on the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the

people in the study felt that the experience with magic mushroom was

spiritually uplifting and mind expanding, and that some considered the

experience so moving as to be a life changing seminal event. All

that tells us is that the substance has extensive potential medical

benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But what's

G-d have to do with it?

>

> < wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does

it prove the reality of spirit or does

> it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the brain? :-)

>

> http://seattletimes <http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/>

..nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

> 2003118880_shrooms11.html

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

> http://www.chineseh <http://www..org> erbacademy.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind. As such,

I

> think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come

from?

> Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and

science,

> these are very serious questions.

>

> Bob

 

I don't understand why anyone thinks they know anything but their

own

mind or experience. I also don't see why it matters. Humans never

agree on what's " real " or " true " and, seems to me, they aren't built

to agree. Of course I think I'm seeing reality often but I don't

believe I can ever know what's objectively real. When we think we

know

reality, which includes knowing God, in some 'objective' way, it

only

gets us into trouble, into wars over God, etc. If we could all

accept

our individual experience as all we actually have to go on and trust

it, act on it, defend it, but always respect others' views because

we

can't know we're right and they're wrong in any objective way, then

wouldn't we stop killing each other? And isn't it funny how when I

think

I'm 'right' but I stay open and curious, I often find I was 'wrong?'

I

follow my truth, and allow it to open into...whatever!

 

So, I mostly care how people treat each other. I don't care if you

treat others well because you think there's a God or because you

think

little green elves sitting in your brain will stick you with

acupuncture needles ... I find the search in physics for the

beginning

of 'everything' funny because won't there always be the question:

What

came before that? But, I don't mean to say they should stop

searching--

I just think all facts are so 'relative' or 'temporary' and I find

them wonderful to play with.

 

Naturally I think my perspective is the " best " and most useful...but

I

wouldn't say the most " true. "

 

Marian

[Guest guest]

I was not talking about logic. I was talking about any and all

contents of perception as being experiences within the mind.

 

Bob

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> In my very humble view, this discussion is based up a fallacy. Our

ability to comprehend and perceive is limited by our bodies and our

perceptive awareness. To acknowledge or deny the presence of Creator,

Omnipotent and Omniscent who is beyond the physical realm of the

dimensions that our life is limited to is fallacious, and is

comparable to asking someone blind from birth to describe the color

red, and when they can't, declaring that there is no red. Because one

relies on one's thought process to deduce the existance of G-d doesn't

mean that G-d is within the human mind. Rather, it only means that

the limited logic of the mind is as far as our thoughts are able to

take us. Because something feels " other " or " different " doesn't

render that sensation spiritual or G-dly, only aware, in a different

sense.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

>

> Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote:

> the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind.

As such, I

> think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come from?

> Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and science,

> these are very serious questions.

>

> Bob

>

> , yehuda frischman

> <@> wrote:

> >

> > Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a

> feature on the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the

> people in the study felt that the experience with magic mushroom was

> spiritually uplifting and mind expanding, and that some considered the

> experience so moving as to be a life changing seminal event. All

> that tells us is that the substance has extensive potential medical

> benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But what's

> G-d have to do with it?

> >

> > <@> wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does

> it prove the reality of spirit or does

> > it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the

brain? :-)

> >

> > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

> > 2003118880_shrooms11.html

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbs

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Nice post, Marian.

 

Bob

 

, " marianpblac "

<chinesemed wrote:

>

> " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001@> wrote:

> >

> > the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind. As such,

> I

> > think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come

> from?

> > Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and

> science,

> > these are very serious questions.

> >

> > Bob

>

> I don't understand why anyone thinks they know anything but their

> own

> mind or experience. I also don't see why it matters. Humans never

> agree on what's " real " or " true " and, seems to me, they aren't built

> to agree. Of course I think I'm seeing reality often but I don't

> believe I can ever know what's objectively real. When we think we

> know

> reality, which includes knowing God, in some 'objective' way, it

> only

> gets us into trouble, into wars over God, etc. If we could all

> accept

> our individual experience as all we actually have to go on and trust

> it, act on it, defend it, but always respect others' views because

> we

> can't know we're right and they're wrong in any objective way, then

> wouldn't we stop killing each other? And isn't it funny how when I

> think

> I'm 'right' but I stay open and curious, I often find I was 'wrong?'

> I

> follow my truth, and allow it to open into...whatever!

>

> So, I mostly care how people treat each other. I don't care if you

> treat others well because you think there's a God or because you

> think

> little green elves sitting in your brain will stick you with

> acupuncture needles ... I find the search in physics for the

> beginning

> of 'everything' funny because won't there always be the question:

> What

> came before that? But, I don't mean to say they should stop

> searching--

> I just think all facts are so 'relative' or 'temporary' and I find

> them wonderful to play with.

>

> Naturally I think my perspective is the " best " and most useful...but

> I

> wouldn't say the most " true. "

>

> Marian

>

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

 

Your view is hardly humble. And my message had a smily face after it. I assume

all of you know what that means. And you guys wonder why I don't spend much time

on this list anymore. Oy gevult!

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001

> I was not talking about logic. I was talking about any and all

> contents of perception as being experiences within the mind.

>

> Bob

>

> , yehuda frischman

> < wrote:

> >

> > In my very humble view, this discussion is based up a fallacy. Our

> ability to comprehend and perceive is limited by our bodies and our

> perceptive awareness. To acknowledge or deny the presence of Creator,

> Omnipotent and Omniscent who is beyond the physical realm of the

> dimensions that our life is limited to is fallacious, and is

> comparable to asking someone blind from birth to describe the color

> red, and when they can't, declaring that there is no red. Because one

> relies on one's thought process to deduce the existance of G-d doesn't

> mean that G-d is within the human mind. Rather, it only means that

> the limited logic of the mind is as far as our thoughts are able to

> take us. Because something feels " other " or " different " doesn't

> render that sensation spiritual or G-dly, only aware, in a different

> sense.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

> >

> > Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote:

> > the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind.

> As such, I

> > think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come from?

> > Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and science,

> > these are very serious questions.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > , yehuda frischman

> > <@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a

> > feature on the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the

> > people in the study felt that the experience with magic mushroom was

> > spiritually uplifting and mind expanding, and that some considered the

> > experience so moving as to be a life changing seminal event. All

> > that tells us is that the substance has extensive potential medical

> > benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But what's

> > G-d have to do with it?

> > >

> > > <@> wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does

> > it prove the reality of spirit or does

> > > it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the

> brain? :-)

> > >

> > > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

> > > 2003118880_shrooms11.html

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Herbs

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

The only subject more likely than politics to cause hurt feelings is

religion. I would humbly suggest that we avoid debating the concept of God.

Nobody will change their mind about it, and it's guaranteed to create a lot

of animosity. Besides, it's off topic.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

..................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

PO Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

831-335-3165

plantmed

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

OK, I'll accept that. However how does one make the leap to identify unique

perceptional encounters which are indeed experiences within the mind as having

anything to do with G-d, if we base our discussion upon the monotheistic

understanding of what G-d is?

 

Yehuda

 

Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote:

I was not talking about logic. I was talking about any and all

contents of perception as being experiences within the mind.

 

Bob

 

, yehuda frischman

< wrote:

>

> In my very humble view, this discussion is based up a fallacy. Our

ability to comprehend and perceive is limited by our bodies and our

perceptive awareness. To acknowledge or deny the presence of Creator,

Omnipotent and Omniscent who is beyond the physical realm of the

dimensions that our life is limited to is fallacious, and is

comparable to asking someone blind from birth to describe the color

red, and when they can't, declaring that there is no red. Because one

relies on one's thought process to deduce the existance of G-d doesn't

mean that G-d is within the human mind. Rather, it only means that

the limited logic of the mind is as far as our thoughts are able to

take us. Because something feels " other " or " different " doesn't

render that sensation spiritual or G-dly, only aware, in a different

sense.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

>

> Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001 wrote:

> the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind.

As such, I

> think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come from?

> Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and science,

> these are very serious questions.

>

> Bob

>

> , yehuda frischman

> <@> wrote:

> >

> > Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a

> feature on the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the

> people in the study felt that the experience with magic mushroom was

> spiritually uplifting and mind expanding, and that some considered the

> experience so moving as to be a life changing seminal event. All

> that tells us is that the substance has extensive potential medical

> benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But what's

> G-d have to do with it?

> >

> > <@> wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does

> it prove the reality of spirit or does

> > it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the

brain? :-)

> >

> > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

> > 2003118880_shrooms11.html

> >

> >

> > Chinese Herbs

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

 

 

Truly, I have no idea how to post a message with a smily face and was unaware

what it meant. I'm very computer illiterate. So please forgive me if you felt

that I was expressing arrogance, intolerance or sarcasm. The farthest thing

from the truth. Judaism speaks about the concept of a unique form of zeal. It

is only to be used in very specific situation, without any goal of personal gain

or agenda and only when a serious injustice is being perpetrated. My response

to you was my perception of a sarcasm on your part, mocking ideas and

convictions different than yours. I responded to the content of your post not

you nor your ideas. Please forgive me if you felt personally attacked. That

was not my intention. I have the unmost respect for your scholarship and search

to knowledge in the quest to help others get well.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

PS Isn't it amazing how intense discussions tend to get with people that we

have never even met face to face. I hope some day to have the honor of meeting

you.

wrote:

Yehuda

 

Your view is hardly humble. And my message had a smily face after it. I assume

all of you know what that means. And you guys wonder why I don't spend much time

on this list anymore. Oy gevult!

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" Bob Flaws "

 

> I was not talking about logic. I was talking about any and all

> contents of perception as being experiences within the mind.

>

> Bob

>

> , yehuda frischman

> wrote:

> >

> > In my very humble view, this discussion is based up a fallacy. Our

> ability to comprehend and perceive is limited by our bodies and our

> perceptive awareness. To acknowledge or deny the presence of Creator,

> Omnipotent and Omniscent who is beyond the physical realm of the

> dimensions that our life is limited to is fallacious, and is

> comparable to asking someone blind from birth to describe the color

> red, and when they can't, declaring that there is no red. Because one

> relies on one's thought process to deduce the existance of G-d doesn't

> mean that G-d is within the human mind. Rather, it only means that

> the limited logic of the mind is as far as our thoughts are able to

> take us. Because something feels " other " or " different " doesn't

> render that sensation spiritual or G-dly, only aware, in a different

> sense.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> > Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER, TJM

> >

> > Bob Flaws

wrote:

> > the concept of God/gods is an idea within the human mind.

> As such, I

> > think Todd's question is a serious one. Where do our ideas come from?

> > Do they have objective validity? Within both philosophy and science,

> > these are very serious questions.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> > , yehuda frischman

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Please, give me a break. I happened to hear this evening a

> > feature on the BBC on this very study. The point was that all of the

> > people in the study felt that the experience with magic mushroom was

> > spiritually uplifting and mind expanding, and that some considered the

> > experience so moving as to be a life changing seminal event. All

> > that tells us is that the substance has extensive potential medical

> > benefit, for example drug rehabilitation, or psychiatry. But what's

> > G-d have to do with it?

> > >

> > > wrote: Hmmm. what a surprise. Does

> > it prove the reality of spirit or does

> > > it just show that god is merely a chemical experience in the

> brain? :-)

> > >

> > > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/

> > > 2003118880_shrooms11.html

> > >

> > >

> > > Chinese Herbs

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Is anyone aware of any evidence that psychedelic drugs were known in

Chinese medicine?

 

As far as I know, there is awareness of the solanaceous deliriant

drugs such as datura and henbane in Chinese medicine, as well as

awareness of the psychoactive effects of nutmeg. But I am not aware

of any evidence that Chinese medicine has encountered or dealt with

any psychedelic drugs that provided an adequate margin of safety to

allow for their use or popularity. Obviously, mushrooms would be a

likely candidate, but does anyone have any resources that document

their use?

 

As far as I know, psychedelic mushrooms were not known outside of

Mexico until the 1950s when Gordon Wasson wrote popular articles on

them in Life Magazine. While psychoactive mushrooms occur and are

used in Asian countries such as Thailand, Taiwan, and Indonesia, I'm

not sure if there is any evidence that they were used historically.

I'm not even sure if the mushrooms now in use have always existed in

the ecosystem there.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Bill. I agree.

 

I am more interested in how plants have helped humans along in various

developments like language, cognition, and expansion of world views.

 

Kip Roseman LAc, Dipl CH

 

 

On Behalf Of Bill Schoenbart

Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:09 AM

 

Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind, study

finds

 

 

 

The only subject more likely than politics to cause hurt feelings is

religion. I would humbly suggest that we avoid debating the concept of God.

Nobody will change their mind about it, and it's guaranteed to create a lot

of animosity. Besides, it's off topic.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

..................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

PO Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

831-335-3165

plantmed (AT) earthlink (DOT) <plantmed%40earthlink.net> net

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Eric,

 

I posed this same question to en elderly Taoist priest many years ago. His

answer was along the lines of : historically, sobriety was seen as

virtuous. The righteous person acknowledged that to be human was to be the

bridge between heaven and earth, and " the center " is the conduit for that

link. Intoxication was seen as losing your center, and therefore,

exploration of mind altering substances distances you from your highest

potentials, and thus held no merit in medicine.

 

This obviously has alot of holes in it. For one, what about the rabid

consumption of alcohol that has been secularly popular for a very long time?

 

One has to wonder if there is either a pausity of pschoactive substances

available, or if it was culturally taboo to play with them as my friend

mentioned. It is curious to note that in the Amazon, pschoactive plants are

plentiful and varied and culturally integrated. I spent a month in Peru

recently studying Amazonian herbs, and was shocked at how often my teachers

wanted to " turn me on " to this or that " plant teacher " , ie, psychoactive

plant. And I'm not just speaking of the obvious like Ayahuasca, but

allegedly new and unique plant combinations. Their herbal tradition is very

dynamic and from what I saw, no herbalist worth their salt didn't experiment

with these, and try to integrate them into everyday use- not just for mind

alteration, but for immunology, libido, acne, back pain, etc., etc.

 

Kip Roseman LAc, Dipl CH

 

 

On Behalf Of Eric Brand

Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:13 AM

 

Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind, study

finds

 

 

 

Is anyone aware of any evidence that psychedelic drugs were known in

Chinese medicine?

 

As far as I know, there is awareness of the solanaceous deliriant

drugs such as datura and henbane in Chinese medicine, as well as

awareness of the psychoactive effects of nutmeg. But I am not aware

of any evidence that Chinese medicine has encountered or dealt with

any psychedelic drugs that provided an adequate margin of safety to

allow for their use or popularity. Obviously, mushrooms would be a

likely candidate, but does anyone have any resources that document

their use?

 

As far as I know, psychedelic mushrooms were not known outside of

Mexico until the 1950s when Gordon Wasson wrote popular articles on

them in Life Magazine. While psychoactive mushrooms occur and are

used in Asian countries such as Thailand, Taiwan, and Indonesia, I'm

not sure if there is any evidence that they were used historically.

I'm not even sure if the mushrooms now in use have always existed in

the ecosystem there.

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

For a lighter note on this, my favorite video blogger mentioned this very

research on the 12th.

(Please note he is somewhat earthy/spastic in his language and not for those

easily offended)

http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/ Check 7/12/06

 

 

-

Kip Roseman

Thursday, July 13, 2006 3:01 PM

RE: Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind, study

finds

 

 

Thanks, Bill. I agree.

 

I am more interested in how plants have helped humans along in various

developments like language, cognition, and expansion of world views.

 

Kip Roseman LAc, Dipl CH

On Behalf Of Bill Schoenbart

Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:09 AM

Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind, study

finds

 

The only subject more likely than politics to cause hurt feelings is

religion. I would humbly suggest that we avoid debating the concept of God.

Nobody will change their mind about it, and it's guaranteed to create a lot

of animosity. Besides, it's off topic.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

.................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

PO Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

831-335-3165

plantmed (AT) earthlink (DOT) <plantmed%40earthlink.net> net

 

[Guest guest]

In this discussion of psychoactive substances used medicinally by the

Chinese, what about such psychoactive plants as opium poppy and

cannabis?. Im no expert, but apparantly poppy seeds and later opium

were used mostly only medicinally in China, and recreational smoking

of opium didnt really occur in a widespread way until the 1700's, and

the rest is, quite literally, history.

Would betel nut be considered vaguely psychoactive? (Probably no

more so than tobacco. Betel chewing doesnt lead to hallucinations, but

if you've ever spent anytime in SE Asia or amongst pacific islanders,

then you'd be forgiven for thinking its a drug of dependence, at least.)

Betel / Bing Lan is used medicinally too. Or are we just discussing the

actual psychoactive properties of a plant being used medicinally, and

not the analgesic or other properties?

Lea.

, " Kip Roseman "

<kip wrote:

>

> Hi Eric,

>

> I posed this same question to en elderly Taoist priest many years

ago. His

> answer was along the lines of : historically, sobriety was seen as

> virtuous. The righteous person acknowledged that to be human was

to be the

> bridge between heaven and earth, and " the center " is the conduit for

that

> link. Intoxication was seen as losing your center, and therefore,

> exploration of mind altering substances distances you from your

highest

> potentials, and thus held no merit in medicine.

>

> This obviously has alot of holes in it. For one, what about the rabid

> consumption of alcohol that has been secularly popular for a very

long time?

>

> One has to wonder if there is either a pausity of pschoactive

substances

> available, or if it was culturally taboo to play with them as my friend

> mentioned. It is curious to note that in the Amazon, pschoactive

plants are

> plentiful and varied and culturally integrated. I spent a month in Peru

> recently studying Amazonian herbs, and was shocked at how often

my teachers

> wanted to " turn me on " to this or that " plant teacher " , ie, psychoactive

> plant. And I'm not just speaking of the obvious like Ayahuasca, but

> allegedly new and unique plant combinations. Their herbal tradition is

very

> dynamic and from what I saw, no herbalist worth their salt didn't

experiment

> with these, and try to integrate them into everyday use- not just for

mind

> alteration, but for immunology, libido, acne, back pain, etc., etc.

>

> Kip Roseman LAc, Dipl CH

>

>

> On Behalf Of Eric

Brand

> Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:13 AM

>

> Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind,

study

> finds

>

>

>

> Is anyone aware of any evidence that psychedelic drugs were known

in

> Chinese medicine?

>

> As far as I know, there is awareness of the solanaceous deliriant

> drugs such as datura and henbane in Chinese medicine, as well as

> awareness of the psychoactive effects of nutmeg. But I am not aware

> of any evidence that Chinese medicine has encountered or dealt with

> any psychedelic drugs that provided an adequate margin of safety to

> allow for their use or popularity. Obviously, mushrooms would be a

> likely candidate, but does anyone have any resources that document

> their use?

>

> As far as I know, psychedelic mushrooms were not known outside of

> Mexico until the 1950s when Gordon Wasson wrote popular articles

on

> them in Life Magazine. While psychoactive mushrooms occur and are

> used in Asian countries such as Thailand, Taiwan, and Indonesia, I'm

> not sure if there is any evidence that they were used historically.

> I'm not even sure if the mushrooms now in use have always existed in

> the ecosystem there.

>

> Eric

 

[Guest guest]

Eric,

 

I believe the Fly Agaric (Amanitas) mushroom was used in Europe as a

psychedleic long before 1950. However, it has some nasty side effects

and is usually considered a poison.

 

When I was a student in 1982 in China, I used to hang out with the

other xiao shu min zi, " minorities, " including lots of Xingjiang ren.

Every Saturday night we would party together in their rooms at the

Shanghai Music Conservatory where I/they lived. There was always some

very nice hash at those parties for the Muslim students who didn't do

alcohol.

 

Bob

 

, " Eric Brand "

<smilinglotus wrote:

>

> Is anyone aware of any evidence that psychedelic drugs were known in

> Chinese medicine?

>

> As far as I know, there is awareness of the solanaceous deliriant

> drugs such as datura and henbane in Chinese medicine, as well as

> awareness of the psychoactive effects of nutmeg. But I am not aware

> of any evidence that Chinese medicine has encountered or dealt with

> any psychedelic drugs that provided an adequate margin of safety to

> allow for their use or popularity. Obviously, mushrooms would be a

> likely candidate, but does anyone have any resources that document

> their use?

>

> As far as I know, psychedelic mushrooms were not known outside of

> Mexico until the 1950s when Gordon Wasson wrote popular articles on

> them in Life Magazine. While psychoactive mushrooms occur and are

> used in Asian countries such as Thailand, Taiwan, and Indonesia, I'm

> not sure if there is any evidence that they were used historically.

> I'm not even sure if the mushrooms now in use have always existed in

> the ecosystem there.

>

> Eric

>

[Guest guest]

Doing a little on-line sleuthing, it seems hard to imagine that the

Chinese did not know about Fly Agaric. It was very prevalent in

Siberia. So it is probably present in Manchuria. It like birch and

conifer forests. Here's some info on Amanitas as a psychedelic:

 

" The word 'toadstool' refers to poisonous or inedible mushrooms. The

Amanita muscaria toadstool, instantly recognisable for its brilliant

scarlet cap with white warts, has long been used in the rituals of

certain Asian societies. This use has arisen due to the psychotropic

and hallucinogenic compounds contained within the toadstool. Ingestion

leads to 'expanded perception', macropsia (perceiving objects as

enlarged)3, rapid heartbeat, dry mouth, and the belief that one could

talk directly with one's god. It is no accident that fly agaric

toadstools often appear in books of fairy tales.

 

" Fly agaric is a source of the hallucinogenic components ibotenic acid

(an amino acid) and muscimol. Ibotenic acid, only present in fresh

mushrooms, has insecticidal properties4. When dried, ibotenic acid

degrades (decarboxylates) into muscimol5, which has ten times the

potency. Taken orally, Ibotenic acid is entheogenically active6 at

50-100 mg, whilst muscimol displays activity at 10-15 mg.

 

" The shamans7 of Siberia use Amanita muscaria for recreational or

ritualistic purposes. They use a dried preparation called 'mukhomor'

to speak to their gods. These people, the Kamchadales and the Koryaks,

eat between one and three dried mushrooms. They believe that smaller

mushrooms and those with a large quantity of small warts are more

active than pale red ones and ones with fewer spots. The Koryak women

chew the sun-dried agaric and roll the product into small sausages,

which the men swallow. The Koryaks also eat the flesh of slaughtered

reindeer which have recently eaten fly agaric, but whose psychotropic

condition has subsided. In a similar fashion to the Sami, the

Siberians discovered that their urine contained the active principle

of the fungi and they could consume this recycled product with less of

the undesirable poisonous effects of the raw toadstool.

 

" During a mushroom-induced trance, the shaman would start to twitch

and sweat before falling into a deep coma-like sleep. During his coma,

the shaman's soul left his body as an animal and flew to the 'other

world' where it communicated with the spirits. The shaman hoped these

spirits could help him deal with major problems, such as outbreaks of

sickness in the village, by imparting medical knowledge from the gods.

 

" On awaking, the shaman found their muscular systems had been so

stimulated that they were able to perform spectacular physical feats

with seemingly little effort - such as making a gigantic leap to clear

a small obstacle. The effect on animals was the same, and a

'bemushroomed'8 reindeer traditionally guarded each shaman.

 

" The poorer classes, who could not afford the time to gather the

toadstools, would drink the urine of the better-off, collected in

bowls or skin bags. Evidence suggests the drug's hallucinogens

remained effective even having passed through five or six people, and

some scholars maintain that this is the true origin of the expression

'to get pissed' - rather than having anything to do with alcohol

intoxication9.

 

" The fly agaric may have been one of the earliest entheogens, that is

hallucinogenic substances used for religious or shamanic purposes.

Such use dates back as much as 10,000 years. The oldest archaeological

evidence discovered so far of mushroom use by man exists as an image

in a cave in Tassili, Algeria. The image dates back to 3500BC and

depicts the mushrooms with electrified auras outlining dancing shamans. "

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Here's confirmation that amanitas species grow in southwest China:

 

http://www.kib.ac.cn/Fungi_Mosses/PDF/Yang,%20Weiss%20 & %20Oberwinkler.pdf

 

Bob

 

 

, " Lea Starck " <leabun1

wrote:

>

> In this discussion of psychoactive substances used medicinally by the

> Chinese, what about such psychoactive plants as opium poppy and

> cannabis?. Im no expert, but apparantly poppy seeds and later opium

> were used mostly only medicinally in China, and recreational smoking

> of opium didnt really occur in a widespread way until the 1700's, and

> the rest is, quite literally, history.

> Would betel nut be considered vaguely psychoactive? (Probably no

> more so than tobacco. Betel chewing doesnt lead to hallucinations, but

> if you've ever spent anytime in SE Asia or amongst pacific islanders,

> then you'd be forgiven for thinking its a drug of dependence, at

least.)

> Betel / Bing Lan is used medicinally too. Or are we just discussing the

> actual psychoactive properties of a plant being used medicinally, and

> not the analgesic or other properties?

> Lea.

> , " Kip Roseman "

> <kip@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Eric,

> >

> > I posed this same question to en elderly Taoist priest many years

> ago. His

> > answer was along the lines of : historically, sobriety was seen as

> > virtuous. The righteous person acknowledged that to be human was

> to be the

> > bridge between heaven and earth, and " the center " is the conduit for

> that

> > link. Intoxication was seen as losing your center, and therefore,

> > exploration of mind altering substances distances you from your

> highest

> > potentials, and thus held no merit in medicine.

> >

> > This obviously has alot of holes in it. For one, what about the rabid

> > consumption of alcohol that has been secularly popular for a very

> long time?

> >

> > One has to wonder if there is either a pausity of pschoactive

> substances

> > available, or if it was culturally taboo to play with them as my

friend

> > mentioned. It is curious to note that in the Amazon, pschoactive

> plants are

> > plentiful and varied and culturally integrated. I spent a month in

Peru

> > recently studying Amazonian herbs, and was shocked at how often

> my teachers

> > wanted to " turn me on " to this or that " plant teacher " , ie,

psychoactive

> > plant. And I'm not just speaking of the obvious like Ayahuasca, but

> > allegedly new and unique plant combinations. Their herbal

tradition is

> very

> > dynamic and from what I saw, no herbalist worth their salt didn't

> experiment

> > with these, and try to integrate them into everyday use- not just for

> mind

> > alteration, but for immunology, libido, acne, back pain, etc., etc.

> >

> > Kip Roseman LAc, Dipl CH

> >

> >

> > On Behalf Of Eric

> Brand

> > Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:13 AM

> >

> > Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind,

> study

> > finds

> >

> >

> >

> > Is anyone aware of any evidence that psychedelic drugs were known

> in

> > Chinese medicine?

> >

> > As far as I know, there is awareness of the solanaceous deliriant

> > drugs such as datura and henbane in Chinese medicine, as well as

> > awareness of the psychoactive effects of nutmeg. But I am not aware

> > of any evidence that Chinese medicine has encountered or dealt with

> > any psychedelic drugs that provided an adequate margin of safety to

> > allow for their use or popularity. Obviously, mushrooms would be a

> > likely candidate, but does anyone have any resources that document

> > their use?

> >

> > As far as I know, psychedelic mushrooms were not known outside of

> > Mexico until the 1950s when Gordon Wasson wrote popular articles

> on

> > them in Life Magazine. While psychoactive mushrooms occur and are

> > used in Asian countries such as Thailand, Taiwan, and Indonesia, I'm

> > not sure if there is any evidence that they were used historically.

> > I'm not even sure if the mushrooms now in use have always existed in

> > the ecosystem there.

> >

> > Eric

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

More on Fly Agaric in China:

 

Fifty-five Amanita species are recorded from China (Mao, 1990, 1991,

1993; Tai, 1979; Teng, 1996). Twenty-two of the 55 Chinese Amanita

taxa also are reported from eastern North America. Five of these,

i.e., 5% of the total number of the eastern North American species

appear to be confined to eastern Asia and eastern North America. The

other 17 species common to Asia and North America are widely

distributed throughout the northern temperate regions; e.g., A.

muscaria and A. phalloides. Over 20% of the Chinese Amanita taxa have

not been reported from elsewhere.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

When I was in Peru, there were some Russian psychologists studying Amazonian

herbology. They had just come from a Siberian field study of Shamanic

healing practices among various peoples of the area, and had experienced

some Amanita healing ceremonies. Usually, it is the Shaman only that takes

the sacrament for spirit negotiation and navagation, but these folks were

aloud to try it. Apparently, the mushroom had been gently dried over heat to

flux the ibotenic acid to muscimole. Some of them didn't experience much

other than a bad stomach ache, while some felt they did deep transformative

work. They also said that plant intoxicants are in the Russian pharmacopeia,

but I don't read Russian.

 

The Shaman told them about how the Amanita helps to connect with their totem

animals, specifically the reindeer. They call upon the reindeer to take them

to the " dark gap in the milky way " where they retrieve information, or

directly to a sick person's spirit for healing. Allegedly, the reindeer are

notorious for gobbling large amounts of fresh mushrooms (which apparently is

not toxic to them), and it gives them " extraordinary vigor " , to the point

that it looks like they are flying when intoxicated. Some Shaman's will

drink the urine of the reindeer that has consumed Amanita (don't ask me

how). They told me of a story told to them in which the Shaman of the area

have to be careful when they go outside to void their bladders after

consuming it because they have been assaulted by reindeer wanting to drink

the Shaman's urine. The Koryak tend to decoct it and drink the tea. The

poorer people who don't have any will wait outside the hut for the shaman to

come out and void their bladder. They wait with bowls for for the Shaman to

urinate in.

 

When I was in China and Mongolia in the 80's, I met some Shamans who wore

red wraps with white polk-a-dots for even non-religious ceremonies like

drinking Yak butter tea with a new guest. I asked my Chinese friends if

there were any uses of psychedelics either for Shamanic or standard herbal

medicine use in China, and they said many different regions throughout China

most likely have their own psychoactive plant use, but it is kept away from

the government's watchful eyes.

 

But Eric's question still stands. Is this in our medical archives in Chinese

Medicine?

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Friday, July 14, 2006 7:39 AM

 

Re: Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind, study

finds

 

 

 

Doing a little on-line sleuthing, it seems hard to imagine that the

Chinese did not know about Fly Agaric. It was very prevalent in

Siberia. So it is probably present in Manchuria. It like birch and

conifer forests. Here's some info on Amanitas as a psychedelic:

 

" The word 'toadstool' refers to poisonous or inedible mushrooms. The

Amanita muscaria toadstool, instantly recognisable for its brilliant

scarlet cap with white warts, has long been used in the rituals of

certain Asian societies. This use has arisen due to the psychotropic

and hallucinogenic compounds contained within the toadstool. Ingestion

leads to 'expanded perception', macropsia (perceiving objects as

enlarged)3, rapid heartbeat, dry mouth, and the belief that one could

talk directly with one's god. It is no accident that fly agaric

toadstools often appear in books of fairy tales.

 

" Fly agaric is a source of the hallucinogenic components ibotenic acid

(an amino acid) and muscimol. Ibotenic acid, only present in fresh

mushrooms, has insecticidal properties4. When dried, ibotenic acid

degrades (decarboxylates) into muscimol5, which has ten times the

potency. Taken orally, Ibotenic acid is entheogenically active6 at

50-100 mg, whilst muscimol displays activity at 10-15 mg.

 

" The shamans7 of Siberia use Amanita muscaria for recreational or

ritualistic purposes. They use a dried preparation called 'mukhomor'

to speak to their gods. These people, the Kamchadales and the Koryaks,

eat between one and three dried mushrooms. They believe that smaller

mushrooms and those with a large quantity of small warts are more

active than pale red ones and ones with fewer spots. The Koryak women

chew the sun-dried agaric and roll the product into small sausages,

which the men swallow. The Koryaks also eat the flesh of slaughtered

reindeer which have recently eaten fly agaric, but whose psychotropic

condition has subsided. In a similar fashion to the Sami, the

Siberians discovered that their urine contained the active principle

of the fungi and they could consume this recycled product with less of

the undesirable poisonous effects of the raw toadstool.

 

" During a mushroom-induced trance, the shaman would start to twitch

and sweat before falling into a deep coma-like sleep. During his coma,

the shaman's soul left his body as an animal and flew to the 'other

world' where it communicated with the spirits. The shaman hoped these

spirits could help him deal with major problems, such as outbreaks of

sickness in the village, by imparting medical knowledge from the gods.

 

" On awaking, the shaman found their muscular systems had been so

stimulated that they were able to perform spectacular physical feats

with seemingly little effort - such as making a gigantic leap to clear

a small obstacle. The effect on animals was the same, and a

'bemushroomed'8 reindeer traditionally guarded each shaman.

 

" The poorer classes, who could not afford the time to gather the

toadstools, would drink the urine of the better-off, collected in

bowls or skin bags. Evidence suggests the drug's hallucinogens

remained effective even having passed through five or six people, and

some scholars maintain that this is the true origin of the expression

'to get pissed' - rather than having anything to do with alcohol

intoxication9.

 

" The fly agaric may have been one of the earliest entheogens, that is

hallucinogenic substances used for religious or shamanic purposes.

Such use dates back as much as 10,000 years. The oldest archaeological

evidence discovered so far of mushroom use by man exists as an image

in a cave in Tassili, Algeria. The image dates back to 3500BC and

depicts the mushrooms with electrified auras outlining dancing shamans. "

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Eric,

>

> I believe the Fly Agaric (Amanitas) mushroom was used in Europe as a

> psychedleic long before 1950. However, it has some nasty side effects

> and is usually considered a poison.

 

Good point. And you are right that fly agaric was known to the

Europeans. My statement in regard to mushrooms should have been

specified as psilocybin-containing mushrooms, as in the study. As far

as I know, psilocybin was originally thought to be limited to

mushrooms in Mexico before it was discovered in multiple genera

worldwide.

 

It would seem likely that fly agaric would be known to Chinese

medicine, and I believe that the siberian fly agaric is chemically

distinct to the same mushroom in North America (the Asian one being

more active and less intensely poisonous). A good preliminary source

to check would be the zhong yao ci hai, which has almost 9000

medicinals included, but I'm not near a copy at the moment. Thanks

for pointing it out.

 

One thing that is interesting about the mushroom study was the dosage

used. While many studies essentially waste resources by studying the

effects of below-standard doses, the John Hopkins study used

significant doses. I hope that Chinese medical research follows the

same trend as research is conducted in the West.

 

> When I was a student in 1982 in China, I used to hang out with the

> other xiao shu min zi, " minorities, " including lots of Xingjiang ren.

> Every Saturday night we would party together in their rooms at the

> Shanghai Music Conservatory where I/they lived. There was always some

> very nice hash at those parties for the Muslim students who didn't do

> alcohol.

 

It seems that psychoactive use of cannabis has generally occurred

around the periphery of Han Chinese culture, usually in conjunction

with foreign influence. I'm not sure if this has always been the

case, but I don't know any information to the contrary. The fact that

the cannabis in the major Han regions is non-psychoactive hemp is

certainly a factor, but active trade with areas like India would

presumably have introduced cannabis preparations.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Since you asked...

Several yrs. ago I happened upon Vol. 25, No. 6 of the Harvard

University Botanical Museum Leaflets

http://zatoichi.huh.harvard.edu/publications/BotanicalMuseumLeaflets.htm

. In there was an interesting study by Li Hui-Lin (then an Honorary

Research Associate in Chinese Economic Botany) entitled

'Hallucinogenic Plants in Chinese Herbals'. Like my sources Li and

Needham I'll use Wade-Giles spelling below (I know it's not proper but

it might make it clearer). These are more more historical than medical

works so they don't give temps and channels, etc., ... .This leaflet

is one of the only written references to 'laughing mushrooms' (hsiao

chun- Panaeolus and possibly Pluteus, Gymnopilus and other spp.) used

in ancient China that I've seen. These fungi produce the psychoactive

compound used in the link Todd first posted in this thread. For those

who don't know, various of these fungi can grow from dung, earth or

wood. According to Li, the first reference was in about 290 A.D. in

Chang Hua's 'Record of the Investigation of Things'. There it spoke of

a fungi growing on the feng tree (Liquidambar sp.) in the Mts. S. of

the Yangtze that when eaten causes people to laugh unceasingly. The

remedy is a soil infusion. Other pen tsaos which mention laughing

mushrooms are the 'Supplement to the Pen tsao' (Pen tsao Shi-i, ca.

725 A.D.) by Chen Tsang Chi, the 'Records of Unwordly and Strange

Things' (Ching-i Lu, ca. 950 A.D.) by Tao Ku and 'A Treatise on Fungi'

(Chun pu, 1245 A.D.) by Chen Jen Yu.

According to Wasson via Needham (who thinks it may have been used by

ancient Taoists) via Li, Amanita muscaria in China was called 'toad

mushroom' (ha ma chun) or 'fly killing fungus'(tu ying hsin- it

doesn't really kill them but at least some like to pass out from it).

In addition to the usual Solanaceaous suspects and others plants in

European flying ointments (henbane, datura, aconite) Li mentioned

several other potentially toxic plants we might not usually consider

deleriant hallucinogens such as yun shih (Caesalpinia sepiaria), fang

kuei (Peucadanum japonicum- which Li Shi Zhen apparently thought was

psychoactive due to adulteration), mao ken (Ranunculus sp.) and red

shang lu (Phytolacca actinosa). I won't get into the effects and parts

used that he references, but apparently it's the dose, length of time

used, adulterants and/or formula that makes them psychoactive. Li

tells several criminal stories about these plants, which he notes Li

Shi Zhen also did.

 

Plants that are said to make people " fly through the air " (as was

said of hemp flowers) I think could make a fascinating new thread,

esp. since I don't read Chinese, have seen this said of several plants

as I recall and I'd imagine there are many levels of meaning to this

phrase. I'm not sure of the relation to the terms for herbs making

people's body light or making them light of foot, for example.

I've also read elsewhere that Hua Tuo (ca. 110-207 A.D.) using

henbane in his anesthetic hemp wine.

Hemp of course was also said to make some people able to " speak with

spirits " . Many other plants were used for this (arguably a type of

hallucination) in incense form as well, such as yarrow and mugwort.

 

Here's a bit more on psychoactive hemp in Chinese History from:

http://www.rexresearch.com/hhist/hhist1~1.htm

 

... Chinese alchemists performed rituals to prepare for their

experiments, especially with cinnabar. One such rite was a solemn

dance titled " Method of Steaming Hemp according to Su Nu " . The 6th

century Taoist collection Wu Shang Pi Yao (Essentials of the Matchless

Books) states that alchemists added hemp to their incense.

 

.....Ma also figured in the early development of medicine. The great

physician Hua Tuo (141-208 AD) formulated ma-yo (hemp wine) and

ma-fei-san ( " hemp boiling powder " ) with cannabis and aconite for use

as an anaesthetic for the surgeries he performed. (Ref.16)

 

... The oldest pharmacopia in existence, the Pen-Ts'ao Ching (ca. 100

BC) was compiled from ancient fragments attributed to the legendary

Emperor Shen-Nung (ca. 2300 BC). The book mentions that " hemp grows

along rivers and valleys at T'ai-shan, but it is now common

everywhere. " Mount T'ai (Shantung province) is one of the oldest

locations where hemp was grown in historical times. The book also

mentions ma-pho, a term that means a sudden change of mood, such as

intoxication. At the same time the word can be explained as dehisence,

the sudden blooming of male hemp. The ancient Chinese naturally

discovered the medicinal and psychic properties of the resinous

bracts, which they called ma-fen. Another find from the Eastern Chou

dynasty (Shansi province) contained several hundred pieces of jade and

stone " oath documents " with red inscriptions that mention ma with the

character for " negative " attached to it. This suggests that the

undignified psychoactive effect of the plant was well known to them.

(8, 9)

 

.... Emperor Shen Nung, classifies ma as both yin (female, chu-ma) and

yang (male, i-ma). He advises that the Chinese cultivate only the

female plant because it provides more of the medicinal virtue, which

he prescribed for mental weakness, menstrual problems, constipation,

gout, rheumatism, beri-beri and malaria. He also classified chu-ma as

one of the Superior Elixirs of Immortality. A late edition of the Pen

Ts'ao adds this note:

 

... " To take much makes people see demons and throw themselves about

like maniacs. But if one takes it over a long period of time one can

communicate with the spirits, gain insight, and one's body becomes

light. "

 

The majority of Chinese people, however, were under the sobering

influence of Taoist and Confucian religions and considered such a

state of intoxication to be shameful. The shamanic use of Cannabis

fell into neglect while the more tranquil opium rose in favor instead.

Traditional Chinese medicine uses the Mung bean (Semen Phaseoli

radiatus) as an antidote for cannabis intoxication.(17)

 

Historian Joseph Needham attributes the establishment of Mount Shao as

the first center of Taoist practice (ca. 350 AD) in part to the use of

cannabis by the sage Yang Hsi; he enjoyed a series of visions of Lady

Wei, the Mao brothers, and other members of the pantheon who

transmitted sacred texts through him. (8)

 

(8) Needham, Joseph: Science and Civilization; 1976, Cambridge

University Press.

(9) Li, Hui-Lin: Economic Botany 28: 437-448 (Oct-Dec 1974)

(17) Yanchi, Lui: The Essential Book of Traditional Chinese

Medicine, vol. 2; 1998, Columbia Univ. Press; ISBN 0-231-06518-3.

 

> >

> > I believe the Fly Agaric (Amanitas) mushroom was used in Europe as a

> > psychedleic long before 1950. However, it has some nasty side effects

> > and is usually considered a poison.

> as I know, psilocybin was originally thought to be limited to

> mushrooms in Mexico before it was discovered in multiple genera

> worldwide.

>

> > When I was a student in 1982 in China, I used to hang out with the

> > other xiao shu min zi, " minorities, " including lots of Xingjiang ren.

> > Every Saturday night we would party together in their rooms at the

> > Shanghai Music Conservatory where I/they lived. There was always some

> > very nice hash at those parties for the Muslim students who didn't do

> > alcohol.