bu zhong yi qi tang for nursing mom's: more general ?

July 17, 2006

Hi.

I have a general question on those same lines. (I am going to order Zita West's

book

today, which will hopefully help in this area.)

Is there a list of contraindicated herbs for nursing mom's? Or any other

resource that

might help, other than the Zita West (or maybe Debra Betts) book?

[some background: My patient has a 2.5 yr. old that she nurses, and her cc is

depression.

Dx: Sp qi and ht bl xu, blood stag, liver qi stag, underlying kid yin xu. She

is 41 y.o. and

would like to have another child soon. Had a misscarriage 5 years ago.]

Thank you in advance.

Gina Zuleger

, " Lea Starck " <leabun1 wrote

> Hi there,

> I think a modified bu zhong yi qi tang would be fine, and would be OK for

> the newborn too. I dont think the tonic herbs are " stimulating " necessarily

> to the baby. In fact, increasing qi and blood increases the milk supply, and

> a well nourished baby is a happy baby. I have found that with some tonic

> herbs, they actually help with getting a good rest, due to their nourishing

> and restorative properties, rather than being too stimulating. I would also

> consider Gui Pi Tang if this is still a concern for you, and in the case of a

> mother who has lost a lot of blood is a great formula to use. Or even some

> dietary therapy such as congee with some herbs along the lines of dang

> gui bu xue tang, if you wanted something milder.

> For prolapsed bladders after childbirth, there are exercises that can be

> very useful. Perhaps the new mum could speak to a physiotherapist or

> similar for some advice on exercises that could be used in conjunction

> with herbs?

> Regards,

> Lea.

> , " CYNTHIA SPLIES "

> <splies@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > bu zhong yi qi tang, modified looks like the perfect formula for a new

> mom

> > with a cystocele (prolapsed bladder) who also lost quite a bit of blood.

> would

> > this rx be too upbearing and stimulating for the nursing newborn? how

> soon

> > after delivery would mom be able to start taking these herbs?

> > thanks,

> >

> > cynthia splies, lac

> >

>

July 18, 2006

As a nursing Mum / occasionally herb user, I have looked into this.

Near as I can figure, its not a good idea to use irritant laxatives,

whether herbal or pharmaceutical, as these can go through to the

baby, and can cause diarrhea and resultant rebound constipation. Not

fun. So fan xie ye, da huang etc. Bulking laxatives such as psyllium

or slippery elm would be OK. I would personally avoid too much in

the way of astringents. Sage is one of the few herbs that I am aware

of that is considered an anti-galactagogue, so that is one to avoid.

I prefer to avoid anything that is considered toxic or slightly

toxic, and try to limit use of really cold herbs.

If you have a look at literature or opinions, then people at one

time or another have mentioned a lot of herbs as not recommended,

which have empirically been thought to be safe in lactation.

(Ginseng for one.) And if you didnt use all the herbs that have been

mentioned at one time or another as not to be used during lactation,

then you start having to talk about what you CAN use, rather than

what you cant.

I have a list I started compiling, I'll have to see if I can dig it

out. In the mean time, I remember that Subhuti Darmananda has

something on his site about herbs in lactation. Might be worth a

look.

I tend to look at what the herbs are needed for and what the health

of the baby is. Eg, if the mum and baby both have a 'flu, then

treating the mum, even though some cold herbs are used, will treat

the baby too, and its not a long term treatment.

Also, strong tasting herbs (perhaps this explains why bo he is

mentioned) will flavour the milk and some babies will go on

a " breast strike " . (I cant use that term around my partner without

him giggling like a schoolgirl. :-)) But each baby is individual and

you wont know till you try. I have known of babies that turned into

colicy little bundles of screams every time their Mum ate cucumbers.

Who knew?!

More on this when I find where I put my list.

regards,

Lea.

, " gzuleger101 "

<gzuleger wrote:

>

> Hi.

>

> I have a general question on those same lines. (I am going to

order Zita West's book

> today, which will hopefully help in this area.)

>

> Is there a list of contraindicated herbs for nursing mom's? Or

any other resource that

> might help, other than the Zita West (or maybe Debra Betts) book?

>

> [some background: My patient has a 2.5 yr. old that she nurses,

and her cc is depression.

> Dx: Sp qi and ht bl xu, blood stag, liver qi stag, underlying kid

yin xu. She is 41 y.o. and

> would like to have another child soon. Had a misscarriage 5 years

ago.]

>

> Thank you in advance.

>

> Gina Zuleger

>

> , " Lea Starck " <leabun1@>

wrote

>

> > Hi there,

> > I think a modified bu zhong yi qi tang would be fine, and would

be OK for

> > the newborn too. I dont think the tonic herbs are " stimulating "

necessarily

> > to the baby. In fact, increasing qi and blood increases the milk

supply, and

> > a well nourished baby is a happy baby. I have found that with

some tonic

> > herbs, they actually help with getting a good rest, due to their

nourishing

> > and restorative properties, rather than being too stimulating. I

would also

> > consider Gui Pi Tang if this is still a concern for you, and in

the case of a

> > mother who has lost a lot of blood is a great formula to use. Or

even some

> > dietary therapy such as congee with some herbs along the lines

of dang

> > gui bu xue tang, if you wanted something milder.

> > For prolapsed bladders after childbirth, there are exercises

that can be

> > very useful. Perhaps the new mum could speak to a

physiotherapist or

> > similar for some advice on exercises that could be used in

conjunction

> > with herbs?

> > Regards,

> > Lea.

> > , " CYNTHIA SPLIES "

> > <splies@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > bu zhong yi qi tang, modified looks like the perfect formula

for a new

> > mom

> > > with a cystocele (prolapsed bladder) who also lost quite a bit

of blood.

> > would

> > > this rx be too upbearing and stimulating for the nursing

newborn? how

> > soon

> > > after delivery would mom be able to start taking these herbs?

> > > thanks,

> > >

> > > cynthia splies, lac

> > >

> >

>

July 18, 2006

My understanding is there is not much research on herbs and lactation, just as

there is not

much on drugs. The best I've read on the subject is from Mills & Bone's

Essential Guide to

Herbal Safety. See

http://www.us.elsevierhealth.com/product.jsp?isbn=9780443071713

They do an excellent job of spelling out the issue and reviewing what is known

(not much).

And Gina, not to impose, but if your patient is 41 and trying to get pregnant,

what is she

doing nursing a toddler?! No wonder she's depressed and deficient. I'm very pro-

breastfeeding, nursed my own daughter until she was 20 months. I know this is a

very

charged and emotional issue. As difficult as it is to wean your

child--especially if you're in

a very pro-BF, self-weaning kind of community, as I am--my health improved

dramatically

when I did. I've seen this in patients and friends as well. And, it is in accord

with the

principles of CM, breastmilk is blood after all.

--Sarah Rivkin, MS, LAc, Dipl. OM

saydit

www.slopeacupuncture.com

, " Lea Starck " <leabun1 wrote:

>

> As a nursing Mum / occasionally herb user, I have looked into this.

> Near as I can figure, its not a good idea to use irritant laxatives,

> whether herbal or pharmaceutical, as these can go through to the

> baby, and can cause diarrhea and resultant rebound constipation. Not

> fun. So fan xie ye, da huang etc. Bulking laxatives such as psyllium

> or slippery elm would be OK. I would personally avoid too much in

> the way of astringents. Sage is one of the few herbs that I am aware

> of that is considered an anti-galactagogue, so that is one to avoid.

> I prefer to avoid anything that is considered toxic or slightly

> toxic, and try to limit use of really cold herbs.

> If you have a look at literature or opinions, then people at one

> time or another have mentioned a lot of herbs as not recommended,

> which have empirically been thought to be safe in lactation.

> (Ginseng for one.) And if you didnt use all the herbs that have been

> mentioned at one time or another as not to be used during lactation,

> then you start having to talk about what you CAN use, rather than

> what you cant.

> I have a list I started compiling, I'll have to see if I can dig it

> out. In the mean time, I remember that Subhuti Darmananda has

> something on his site about herbs in lactation. Might be worth a

> look.

> I tend to look at what the herbs are needed for and what the health

> of the baby is. Eg, if the mum and baby both have a 'flu, then

> treating the mum, even though some cold herbs are used, will treat

> the baby too, and its not a long term treatment.

> Also, strong tasting herbs (perhaps this explains why bo he is

> mentioned) will flavour the milk and some babies will go on

> a " breast strike " . (I cant use that term around my partner without

> him giggling like a schoolgirl. :-)) But each baby is individual and

> you wont know till you try. I have known of babies that turned into

> colicy little bundles of screams every time their Mum ate cucumbers.

> Who knew?!

> More on this when I find where I put my list.

> regards,

> Lea.

> , " gzuleger101 "

> <gzuleger@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi.

> >

> > I have a general question on those same lines. (I am going to

> order Zita West's book

> > today, which will hopefully help in this area.)

> >

> > Is there a list of contraindicated herbs for nursing mom's? Or

> any other resource that

> > might help, other than the Zita West (or maybe Debra Betts) book?

> >

> > [some background: My patient has a 2.5 yr. old that she nurses,

> and her cc is depression.

> > Dx: Sp qi and ht bl xu, blood stag, liver qi stag, underlying kid

> yin xu. She is 41 y.o. and

> > would like to have another child soon. Had a misscarriage 5 years

> ago.]

> >

> > Thank you in advance.

> >

> > Gina Zuleger

> >

> > , " Lea Starck " <leabun1@>

> wrote

> >

> > > Hi there,

> > > I think a modified bu zhong yi qi tang would be fine, and would

> be OK for

> > > the newborn too. I dont think the tonic herbs are " stimulating "

> necessarily

> > > to the baby. In fact, increasing qi and blood increases the milk

> supply, and

> > > a well nourished baby is a happy baby. I have found that with

> some tonic

> > > herbs, they actually help with getting a good rest, due to their

> nourishing

> > > and restorative properties, rather than being too stimulating. I

> would also

> > > consider Gui Pi Tang if this is still a concern for you, and in

> the case of a

> > > mother who has lost a lot of blood is a great formula to use. Or

> even some

> > > dietary therapy such as congee with some herbs along the lines

> of dang

> > > gui bu xue tang, if you wanted something milder.

> > > For prolapsed bladders after childbirth, there are exercises

> that can be

> > > very useful. Perhaps the new mum could speak to a

> physiotherapist or

> > > similar for some advice on exercises that could be used in

> conjunction

> > > with herbs?

> > > Regards,

> > > Lea.

> > > , " CYNTHIA SPLIES "

> > > <splies@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi all,

> > > >

> > > > bu zhong yi qi tang, modified looks like the perfect formula

> for a new

> > > mom

> > > > with a cystocele (prolapsed bladder) who also lost quite a bit

> of blood.

> > > would

> > > > this rx be too upbearing and stimulating for the nursing

> newborn? how

> > > soon

> > > > after delivery would mom be able to start taking these herbs?

> > > > thanks,

> > > >

> > > > cynthia splies, lac

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

July 19, 2006

I just remembered reading somewhere that huang lian was apparantly used

to stop lactation. Perhaps another one to keep in mind?

Lea.

July 19, 2006

" Sarah Rivkin " <saydit wrote:

And Gina, not to impose, but if your patient is 41 and trying to get pregnant,

what is she

> doing nursing a toddler?! No wonder she's depressed and deficient. I'm very

pro-

> breastfeeding, nursed my own daughter until she was 20 months. I know this is

a very

> charged and emotional issue. As difficult as it is to wean your

child--especially if you're

in

> a very pro-BF, self-weaning kind of community, as I am--my health improved

dramatically

> when I did. I've seen this in patients and friends as well. And, it is in

accord with the

> principles of CM, breastmilk is blood after all.

Hi Sarah.

I do not think that is imposing at all. I am open to any and all information on

healthcare...there is so much out there.

Good point. To be specific and clear (because I wasn't in the previous post),

she is

" thinking about the possibility of having another child " . Her husband is unsure

that he

wants another one, and there is job instability on his part. Their relationship

seems

unstable, and communication is severely lacking. She really looks forward to

the bonding

in breast feeding her child. She is a new patient and is being seen for

depression. I am

absolutely going to address the issue that breast-feeding is basically sucking

the life out

of her, and that at 41, a decision about having children must be addressed soon.

But

since that is not necessarily why she came to me, and since she is already

depressed and

tearful, I want to do it all gradually so I do not send her into a tail-spin.

There are a lot of

issues at hand. She has seen shifts in her emotions from her 2 acupuncture

treatments.

(She has a non-confrontating personality, and anger is starting to surface.)

She has also

seen changes in her libido. I started her on herbs this week.

So, I will address the issues gradually.

Any more suggestions/feedback?

Gina Z

> > > [some background: My patient has a 2.5 yr. old that she nurses,

> > and her cc is depression.

> > > Dx: Sp qi and ht bl xu, blood stag, liver qi stag, underlying kid

> > yin xu. She is 41 y.o. and

> > > would like to have another child soon. Had a misscarriage 5 years

> > ago.]

July 19, 2006

, " Lea Starck " <leabun1

wrote:

>

> its not a good idea to use irritant laxatives,

> whether herbal or pharmaceutical, as these can go through to the

> baby, and can cause diarrhea and resultant rebound constipation. Not

> fun. So fan xie ye, da huang etc.

Yes, dahuang, fanxieye, and mangxiao are specifically contraindicated

in breastfeeding.

Herman

July 20, 2006

thanks so much to all who replied. Lea, its interesting how certain

food and herbs can effect the nurslings even though there may not be

much written in the literature, such as cucumbers!

Our mom in question tried BZYQT twice; the first time, she had not

altered her diet at all and took the herbs for 2 days (I added chi

shao, yi yi ren and huang qin as she also had painful bleeding

hemorrhoids - dx SP QI xi, bl xu, sp QI sinking with some heat). She

reported her baby who was then 4 weeks old became irritable,

unconsolible and had crying spells that did not fit any pattern. I

advised her to eliminate known offenders: dairy, citrus,

chocolate,garlic, onion, broccoli, etc. She did this as well as

stopped the herbs and the baby was much improved. A week later, on

this new diet, she tried the herbs again for 2 days. The baby again

had fussy crying spells during the later part of the 2nd day. she

stopped the herbs again and the baby ceased having the fussies. she

decided to stick with kegels for her cystocele and we will continue

with milder food therapy to tonify SP qi. Another possibility for mom

to investigate is the use of a pessary.

I was thinking it is possible that the upbearing & tonifying herbs are

affecting this particular infants constitution, even though these

herbs are known to be safe during nursing. I'll be sure to look at s.

Dharmananda's info. Thanks again!