Guest guest Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Even: I volunteered as a practitioner and in other roles with a non-profit organization that provides free healthcare to homeless and very low-income folks in Seattle. One thing I can suggest is that you or your clinic's fundraiser/admin staff seek in-kind supply donations or dicounted pricing for herbal granules for your patients. When I volunteered with AHAC, I had access to dontated patents and granules and found them very VERY useful. The other thing is that I remember some months back someone was posting comments and suggestions on the use of finely-ground raw herbs. As I remember, they were so finely ground that they could almost dissolve in hot water. In my school, we frequently gave out ground herbs to patients to take as " draughts " -- the reduced cooking time & cost seemed to improve patient compliance, but it necessitates access to a full herbal dispensary and strong electric grinder. Good luck with this! I hope you can find a way beyond the price barrier to provide herbs to folks. --chris http://ahacseattle.org (AHAC: the organization I mentioned above) , " eranee " <eranee wrote: > > I am currently working in a low income clinic as a TCM practitioner predominantly as an > acupuncturist due to the low cost of administration. > It is quite difficult to get patient compliance with herbs (cost, amounts, time, > etc.), but very specifically COST. I have been a practioner for only a few years, so I have yet > to see the long term effects of patent use. In my other practice I predominantly use water- > based decoctions and granules, and most people are happy to pay with the intent of getting > healthier. The low income patients intent is there, but with lack of funds. > Since we see a lot of chronic disorders at the clinic, I feel we NEED to use herbs to achieve > greater clinical effectiveness. The acupuncture is given only once per week and at times > every other week, so again we can only go so far. > Any suggestions for patent use or anything else helpful (and low cost) would be appreciated. > thanks, > > Even > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Thanks Chris, those are some great ideas. I checked out the website you sent me. Looks like they're doing great work there. We currently have a fairly large western herb dispensary with few chinese herbs. I will try to contact the major herb retailers here in Vancouver and see about donations. Thanks again, Even , " pokeyflan " <pokeyflan wrote: > > Even: > > I volunteered as a practitioner and in other roles with a non-profit > organization that provides free healthcare to homeless and very > low-income folks in Seattle. > > One thing I can suggest is that you or your clinic's fundraiser/admin > staff seek in-kind supply donations or dicounted pricing for herbal > granules for your patients. When I volunteered with AHAC, I had > access to dontated patents and granules and found them very VERY useful. > > The other thing is that I remember some months back someone was > posting comments and suggestions on the use of finely-ground raw > herbs. As I remember, they were so finely ground that they could > almost dissolve in hot water. In my school, we frequently gave out > ground herbs to patients to take as " draughts " -- the reduced cooking > time & cost seemed to improve patient compliance, but it necessitates > access to a full herbal dispensary and strong electric grinder. > > Good luck with this! I hope you can find a way beyond the price > barrier to provide herbs to folks. > > --chris > http://ahacseattle.org (AHAC: the organization I mentioned above) > > , " eranee " <eranee@> wrote: > > > > I am currently working in a low income clinic as a TCM practitioner > predominantly as an > > acupuncturist due to the low cost of administration. > > It is quite difficult to get patient compliance with herbs (cost, > amounts, time, > > etc.), but very specifically COST. I have been a practioner for > only a few years, so I have yet > > to see the long term effects of patent use. In my other practice I > predominantly use water- > > based decoctions and granules, and most people are happy to pay with > the intent of getting > > healthier. The low income patients intent is there, but with lack > of funds. > > Since we see a lot of chronic disorders at the clinic, I feel we > NEED to use herbs to achieve > > greater clinical effectiveness. The acupuncture is given only once > per week and at times > > every other week, so again we can only go so far. > > Any suggestions for patent use or anything else helpful (and low > cost) would be appreciated. > > thanks, > > > > Even > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Even I come from a Western herbalism tradition. When I got in school I found that many of the herbs we use in TCM are the same as the Western herbs I was familiar with. Some people believe that although the Latin name (and the plant itself) may be the same, a plant that grows in China is somehow different from one that grows over here. I'm sure on some level there may be some truth to that but I don't believe it's that significant, the pharmacology of the two are not that different. What can be significantly different is the price. Western herbs (organic at that) are often significantly less expensive than their Chinese counterparts. My suggestion: Look at some of the formulas you typically use and see if you can't formulate a relatively simple Western herbal equivalent. You won't have several thousand years of clinical observation behind you, but it's better than the patient not taking anything at all. And if anything ever happens to our freely flowing supply of Chinese herbs ..... If you haven't done so already, check into Peter Holmes excellent reference " The Energetics of Western Herbs " for more insights. Will , " eranee " <eranee wrote: > > I am currently working in a low income clinic as a TCM practitioner predominantly as an > acupuncturist due to the low cost of administration. > It is quite difficult to get patient compliance with herbs (cost, amounts, time, > etc.), but very specifically COST. I have been a practioner for only a few years, so I have yet > to see the long term effects of patent use. In my other practice I predominantly use water- > based decoctions and granules, and most people are happy to pay with the intent of getting > healthier. The low income patients intent is there, but with lack of funds. > Since we see a lot of chronic disorders at the clinic, I feel we NEED to use herbs to achieve > greater clinical effectiveness. The acupuncture is given only once per week and at times > every other week, so again we can only go so far. > Any suggestions for patent use or anything else helpful (and low cost) would be appreciated. > thanks, > > Even > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2006 Report Share Posted August 8, 2006 While I agree that in the long term, examining western herb species is an important idea, I think you have to be cautious in assuming that similar plants in a species have the same clinical/ pharmacological effects. In the Chinese materia medica, similar plants of same species often have very different clinical effects. I would also be cautious with the clinical application of " Energetics of Western Herbs " . It is a great resource for information on herbs in general, but the Chinese " energetics " are speculative. While we do need to develop Chinese classifications for western herbs, pharmaceuticals and neutraceuticals, these observations are still speculative until a larger number of CM practitioners actually confirm these observations clinically. In the Zhong yao da ci dian/Great Dictionary of Chinese Medicinals, I have found several similar or same herbs to those in the West, so that is a potential gold mine for your investigations. On Aug 2, 2006, at 3:58 PM, pvtmadness wrote: > Even > > I come from a Western herbalism tradition. When I got in school I > found that many of the herbs we use in TCM are the same as the > Western herbs I was familiar with. Some people believe that although > the Latin name (and the plant itself) may be the same, a plant that > grows in China is somehow different from one that grows over here. > I'm sure on some level there may be some truth to that but I don't > believe it's that significant, the pharmacology of the two are not > that different. What can be significantly different is the price. > Western herbs (organic at that) are often significantly less > expensive than their Chinese counterparts. My suggestion: Look at > some of the formulas you typically use and see if you can't formulate > a relatively simple Western herbal equivalent. You won't have > several thousand years of clinical observation behind you, but it's > better than the patient not taking anything at all. And if anything > ever happens to our freely flowing supply of Chinese herbs ..... > If you haven't done so already, check into Peter Holmes excellent > reference " The Energetics of Western Herbs " for more insights. > > Will > > , " eranee " <eranee > wrote: > > > > I am currently working in a low income clinic as a TCM practitioner > predominantly as an > > acupuncturist due to the low cost of administration. > > It is quite difficult to get patient compliance with herbs (cost, > amounts, time, > > etc.), but very specifically COST. I have been a practioner for > only a few years, so I have yet > > to see the long term effects of patent use. In my other practice > I predominantly use water- > > based decoctions and granules, and most people are happy to pay > with the intent of getting > > healthier. The low income patients intent is there, but with lack > of funds. > > Since we see a lot of chronic disorders at the clinic, I feel we > NEED to use herbs to achieve > > greater clinical effectiveness. The acupuncture is given only once > per week and at times > > every other week, so again we can only go so far. > > Any suggestions for patent use or anything else helpful (and low > cost) would be appreciated. > > thanks, > > > > Even > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2006 Report Share Posted August 9, 2006 Hi there, I also come from a western herbalism background and I tend to disagree on all counts. In a nice way though. Im a bit of a believer in die dao in terms of the location that plants are from and how they are cultivated. Even with the same plant species cultivated from different locations within China there are differences in effect. And in my own experience there is some marked differences between related species from a TCM and western tradition. Try making a strong decoction of mentha haplocalyx / bo he as compared to mentha piperita. Yuck. Mind you, I havent been game to have a big swig of long dan cao as opposed to the gentian used in western herbalism. Im letting discretion be the better part of valour on that one. Or one just needs to look at the difference between baical skullcap (huang qin) and the skullcap used in western herbalism, which is recognised to the extent that both species are incorporated into the western herbal pharmacopaeia. Or even the differences between licorice species. The other bit that I disagree with is the cost, although this may just be locational. Where I am, its far cheaper to buy TCM herbs, instead of western herbs. Even the TCM herbs as sold by a western herb supplier are far, far more expensive, albeit organic. Im talking ten times more expensive for raw, dried herbs from a western supplier. Where I find a useful crossover between western herbalism and TCM herbs is in tincturing TCM herbs. Which is a very cost low cost solution. Regards, Lea. , " pvtmadness " <will wrote: > > Even > > I come from a Western herbalism tradition. When I got in school I > found that many of the herbs we use in TCM are the same as the > Western herbs I was familiar with. Some people believe that although > the Latin name (and the plant itself) may be the same, a plant that > grows in China is somehow different from one that grows over here. > I'm sure on some level there may be some truth to that but I don't > believe it's that significant, the pharmacology of the two are not > that different. What can be significantly different is the price. > Western herbs (organic at that) are often significantly less > expensive than their Chinese counterparts. My suggestion: Look at > some of the formulas you typically use and see if you can't formulate > a relatively simple Western herbal equivalent. You won't have > several thousand years of clinical observation behind you, but it's > better than the patient not taking anything at all. And if anything > ever happens to our freely flowing supply of Chinese herbs ..... > If you haven't done so already, check into Peter Holmes excellent > reference " The Energetics of Western Herbs " for more insights. > > Will > > , " eranee " <eranee@> > wrote: > > > > I am currently working in a low income clinic as a TCM practitioner > predominantly as an > > acupuncturist due to the low cost of administration. > > It is quite difficult to get patient compliance with herbs (cost, > amounts, time, > > etc.), but very specifically COST. I have been a practioner for > only a few years, so I have yet > > to see the long term effects of patent use. In my other practice > I predominantly use water- > > based decoctions and granules, and most people are happy to pay > with the intent of getting > > healthier. The low income patients intent is there, but with lack > of funds. > > Since we see a lot of chronic disorders at the clinic, I feel we > NEED to use herbs to achieve > > greater clinical effectiveness. The acupuncture is given only once > per week and at times > > every other week, so again we can only go so far. > > Any suggestions for patent use or anything else helpful (and low > cost) would be appreciated. > > thanks, > > > > Even > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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