is ting li zi ever used for invisible phlegm

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends teachers and colleagues,

 

I want to continue a discussion that I began a little over a year

ago. Then, we had discussed the mechanism whereby Wei Ling Xian is

able to dissolve or dislodge fish bones. I had asked the question

with my wife in mind. As some of you may know, she suffers from a

seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that if Wei Ling Xian is

able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it not also be

useful to dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit qi as well. My

experience with her seizures supports Chinese medical literature

which specifically attributes them to " invisible phlegm " misting the

channels, for prior to the seizures (which occur cyclically every 3

to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet clear

pathogenic phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing from her

throat, and which at times drools out of her mouth. During the time

that the seizures occur (the original seizure is usually followed by

3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so days), it

increases further, and for the next 4-5 days she has difficulty

swallowing because of this pathogenic saliva like phlegm in her

throat. Recently I've started to use an aspirator which does help a

bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns, swallowing is

difficult, and when she speaks, she makes gurging sounds like she's

under water. She also has difficulty hearing and understanding as

well, another manifestation of the phlegm blocking the channels.

 

My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an herb of choice

when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling of phlegm in the

throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or pleurisy, it also is

used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary difficulty, and it's

cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart failure and cor

pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles that demonstrate

that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible phlegm in excess

conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in seizure disorders such

as my wife's?

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda Frischman

[Guest guest]

Hi Yehuda,

 

1. wei ling xian: (wood ) disperse, move qi, expel

wind; damp, phlegm, jaundice, phlegm water, all

cold-pain, chronic stagnations; (fried with sha ren or

vinegar can treated fish bone in the throat); be

caution with weak constitution patients. <ben cao bei

yao>

 

Ting li zi: (fire) pungent, bitter, big cold, guide qi

downward, move UB water and LU edema with asthma, but

it is easily from draining LU to injury ST, so better

taking with da zao; long term taking can cause qi

deficient. <ben cao bei yao>

 

Your wife has a long-term condition; you can hear the

sound coming from her throat, so that is excess cold

phlegm, not ¡§invisible¡¨ at all. I will choose wei

ling xian & clear phlegm herbs but ting li zi.

 

ting li zi too cold and harsh, and quick action...

 

My two cents

Christine

 

 

--- wrote:

 

> Dear Friends teachers and colleagues,

>

> I want to continue a discussion that I began a

> little over a year

> ago. Then, we had discussed the mechanism whereby

> Wei Ling Xian is

> able to dissolve or dislodge fish bones. I had

> asked the question

> with my wife in mind. As some of you may know, she

> suffers from a

> seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that if Wei

> Ling Xian is

> able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it

> not also be

> useful to dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit

> qi as well. My

> experience with her seizures supports Chinese

> medical literature

> which specifically attributes them to " invisible

> phlegm " misting the

> channels, for prior to the seizures (which occur

> cyclically every 3

> to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet

> clear

> pathogenic phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing

> from her

> throat, and which at times drools out of her mouth.

> During the time

> that the seizures occur (the original seizure is

> usually followed by

> 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so

> days), it

> increases further, and for the next 4-5 days she has

> difficulty

> swallowing because of this pathogenic saliva like

> phlegm in her

> throat. Recently I've started to use an aspirator

> which does help a

> bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns,

> swallowing is

> difficult, and when she speaks, she makes gurging

> sounds like she's

> under water. She also has difficulty hearing and

> understanding as

> well, another manifestation of the phlegm blocking

> the channels.

>

> My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an

> herb of choice

> when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling

> of phlegm in the

> throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or

> pleurisy, it also is

> used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary

> difficulty, and it's

> cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart

> failure and cor

> pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles

> that demonstrate

> that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible

> phlegm in excess

> conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in

> seizure disorders such

> as my wife's?

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda Frischman

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM, DAOM

BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

310-951-8698 (cel)

panasiaintl

 

" I think, therefore I am. "

[Guest guest]

Dear Christine and all,

 

A quick update and a bit more clarification. Ironically, though this is a

long term problem, nonetheless there is also clearly excess fire as well as

well. both her tongue and pulses reflect that. In regard to your observation

that this is substantial rather than invisible phlegm, perhaps I need to clarify

further: I am not denying that she has visible phlegm, what I am contending is

the two types of phlegm present simultaneously--that the invisible phlegm mists

the heart channel and blocks the orifices to the head, and the visible phlegm

interferes with her swallowing, and accumulates and blocks her throat. We

actually tried this week for a short term of 4 days (2 bags of three doses) as

part of her formula of raw herbs including at first 15g the first bag, and 9g

the second bag of ting li zi. The results have been remarkable: Her sleep has

been the best it's been in years, (she's not woken up coughing or clearing her

throat!) swallowing has been significantly

easier, thinking has been clearer and drooling has stopped. I think at this

point, I will only use the ting li zi when I am aware of a significant increase

in phlegm, or when seizures would be expected according to her cycle, but

emperically I am excited that I have another tool to use in our arsenal. BTW,

just another indication that her situation is clearly a mixture of excess and

deficiency, consider that for the past 2 years, she has been taking a 3x daily

dose of raw Da Huang varying from 1/2 up to 3 grams each time, depending upon

her symptoms. It has significantly reduced the damp heat and excess heat

accumulation, and has regulated her elimination. (For those of you who are

alarmed and contend that it is unsafe and has developed a dependency on Da Huang

as a laxative, consider that the dose she takes now is generally much less than

previously, and rather than needing to increase for effectiveness, we are

finding that it is regulating and balancing her.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER

www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com

 

Christine Chang <panasiaintl wrote:

Hi Yehuda,

 

1. wei ling xian: (wood ) disperse, move qi, expel

wind; damp, phlegm, jaundice, phlegm water, all

cold-pain, chronic stagnations; (fried with sha ren or

vinegar can treated fish bone in the throat); be

caution with weak constitution patients. <ben cao bei

yao>

 

Ting li zi: (fire) pungent, bitter, big cold, guide qi

downward, move UB water and LU edema with asthma, but

it is easily from draining LU to injury ST, so better

taking with da zao; long term taking can cause qi

deficient. <ben cao bei yao>

 

Your wife has a long-term condition; you can hear the

sound coming from her throat, so that is excess cold

phlegm, not ¡§invisible¡¨ at all. I will choose wei

ling xian & clear phlegm herbs but ting li zi.

 

ting li zi too cold and harsh, and quick action...

 

My two cents

Christine

 

--- wrote:

 

> Dear Friends teachers and colleagues,

>

> I want to continue a discussion that I began a

> little over a year

> ago. Then, we had discussed the mechanism whereby

> Wei Ling Xian is

> able to dissolve or dislodge fish bones. I had

> asked the question

> with my wife in mind. As some of you may know, she

> suffers from a

> seizure disorder. I wondered out loud, that if Wei

> Ling Xian is

> able to dissolve fish bones in the throat, would it

> not also be

> useful to dissolving " invisible phlegm " or plum pit

> qi as well. My

> experience with her seizures supports Chinese

> medical literature

> which specifically attributes them to " invisible

> phlegm " misting the

> channels, for prior to the seizures (which occur

> cyclically every 3

> to 4 weeks) there is a gradual buildup of thick, yet

> clear

> pathogenic phlegm, which she has difficulty clearing

> from her

> throat, and which at times drools out of her mouth.

> During the time

> that the seizures occur (the original seizure is

> usually followed by

> 3-5 postictal seizures which occur within 3 or so

> days), it

> increases further, and for the next 4-5 days she has

> difficulty

> swallowing because of this pathogenic saliva like

> phlegm in her

> throat. Recently I've started to use an aspirator

> which does help a

> bit. Yet for the next few days, it returns,

> swallowing is

> difficult, and when she speaks, she makes gurging

> sounds like she's

> under water. She also has difficulty hearing and

> understanding as

> well, another manifestation of the phlegm blocking

> the channels.

>

> My question is this: I know that Ting li zi is an

> herb of choice

> when phlegm is manifested with excess and gurgling

> of phlegm in the

> throat, especially for asthmatic conditions or

> pleurisy, it also is

> used to reduce upper-Jiao edema, with urinary

> difficulty, and it's

> cardiotonic and even used for congestive heart

> failure and cor

> pulmonale. Does anyone know of studies or articles

> that demonstrate

> that it can be helpful in " draining " invisible

> phlegm in excess

> conditions, as well, and perhaps be useful in

> seizure disorders such

> as my wife's?

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Yehuda Frischman

>

>

>

>

>

 

Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM, DAOM

BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee

American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM)

310-951-8698 (cel)

panasiaintl

 

" I think, therefore I am. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

 

 

 

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