Guest guest Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 Dear Trevor, Two or three weeks ago we were engaged in a lively discussion specifically on this issue: the properties and clinical applications of Ting Li Zi. I don't know if you are posting as an afterthought to that discussion or just serendipitously by coincidence. Either way, your thoughts enpower the approach I am taking. Just to catch up those who have been following my wife's progress. I had considered using TLZ as one of the " voices " in the changing formulas I decoct to treat her complex seizure and movement disorder. Her seizures are accompanied by thick, clear, abundant, gurgling phlegm, with great difficulty swallowing, and the gurgling aspect intriqued me to suggest to my mentor, Dr. Zhang, that we use it. He agreed, and suggested using a dose of 15g whenever the phlegm would increase, which also BTW has been a warning sign of an impending seizure, within the next 2-3 days. In addition, as you may know, we have been using a rather large dose of raw Da Huang, to complement to clearing of heat in the upper jiao. I had considered using Mang Xiao as well, as she tends to be quite dry. But Dr. Zhang pointed out that because her stools have been formed, soft and foul smelling, that indicates damp heat, in which case moistening MX would be inappropriate. Then I had another thought: using a very small dose of powdered Magnesium Citrate, for the following reason: Her syndrome has been accompanied by constant tremors and painful muscle spasms. A deficiency of Mg can be the very cause of this. The result has been pretty amazing: Phlegm is down by about 80%, urination has increased only slightly in frequency, stools are now soft and formed but not foul smelling (with just the Da Huang in a larger dose, there was a tendency toward diarrhea). and best of all, the muscle spasms are at least 50% less. I emphasize that I am not going to use the TLZ except when phlegm becomes more prominent, but as I mentioned in a previous post, it would appear that as with Shi Chang Pu, the phlegm transforming quality of Ting Li Zi, has versatility and multiple applications. One question I would like to ask the group, though. Is there any literature comparing the function of Mang Xiao and Magnesium Citrate. (Is Mg Cit. listed as a medicinal substance in the Zhong yao da ci dian?) Respectfully, Yehuda Frischman L.Ac., CST, SER www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com trevor_erikson <trevor_erikson wrote: Hello all, I am currently dedicating my post graduate studies to that of paediatrics. From my 5 years of undergraduate studies I learned that the herb Ting Li Zi has a very violent nature and is seldom used, being reserved for the Tan Yin type disorders and more specifically Xuan Yin or pleurisy. To my surprise, while I was interning in Chengsha, Hunan, last year, I found that many doctors prescribed this herb, even tor conditions that didn't seem to be too severe ( they were obviously excess but not severe). Many paediatric research reports form China also mention the use of this herb. I was surprised to see Ting Li Zi used so much, especially for children whose bodies are more delicate. Obviously Ting Li Zi gives good results in the treatment of cough and asthma but I would like to know if any other practitioners use this herb regularly and/ or can relate to my hesitation on its use based on my teachers warnings. Thanks, Trevor http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 Thank you Yehuda, I have only resently joined the group in this past week so I am unaware of previous conversations. I appreciate your response. I am still very interested in what people think about TLZ's use in paediatrics. Thanks, Trevor , wrote: > > Dear Trevor, > > Two or three weeks ago we were engaged in a lively discussion specifically on this issue: the properties and clinical applications of Ting Li Zi. I don't know if you are posting as an afterthought to that discussion or just serendipitously by coincidence. Either way, your thoughts enpower the approach I am taking. Just to catch up those who have been following my wife's progress. I had considered using TLZ as one of the " voices " in the changing formulas I decoct to treat her complex seizure and movement disorder. Her seizures are accompanied by thick, clear, abundant, gurgling phlegm, with great difficulty swallowing, and the gurgling aspect intriqued me to suggest to my mentor, Dr. Zhang, that we use it. He agreed, and suggested using a dose of 15g whenever the phlegm would increase, which also BTW has been a warning sign of an impending seizure, within the next 2-3 days. In addition, as you may know, we have been using a rather large dose of raw Da > Huang, to complement to clearing of heat in the upper jiao. I had considered using Mang Xiao as well, as she tends to be quite dry. But Dr. Zhang pointed out that because her stools have been formed, soft and foul smelling, that indicates damp heat, in which case moistening MX would be inappropriate. Then I had another thought: using a very small dose of powdered Magnesium Citrate, for the following reason: Her syndrome has been accompanied by constant tremors and painful muscle spasms. A deficiency of Mg can be the very cause of this. The result has been pretty amazing: Phlegm is down by about 80%, urination has increased only slightly in frequency, stools are now soft and formed but not foul smelling (with just the Da Huang in a larger dose, there was a tendency toward diarrhea). and best of all, the muscle spasms are at least 50% less. > I emphasize that I am not going to use the TLZ except when phlegm becomes more prominent, but as I mentioned in a previous post, it would appear that as with Shi Chang Pu, the phlegm transforming quality of Ting Li Zi, has versatility and multiple applications. > > One question I would like to ask the group, though. Is there any literature comparing the function of Mang Xiao and Magnesium Citrate. (Is Mg Cit. listed as a medicinal substance in the Zhong yao da ci dian?) > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda Frischman L.Ac., CST, SER > www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com > > trevor_erikson <trevor_erikson wrote: > Hello all, > I am currently dedicating my post graduate studies to that of paediatrics. From my 5 > years of undergraduate studies I learned that the herb Ting Li Zi has a very violent nature > and is seldom used, being reserved for the Tan Yin type disorders and more specifically > Xuan Yin or pleurisy. To my surprise, while I was interning in Chengsha, Hunan, last year, > I found that many doctors prescribed this herb, even tor conditions that didn't seem to be > too severe ( they were obviously excess but not severe). Many paediatric research reports > form China also mention the use of this herb. I was surprised to see Ting Li Zi used so > much, especially for children whose bodies are more delicate. Obviously Ting Li Zi gives > good results in the treatment of cough and asthma but I would like to know if any other > practitioners use this herb regularly and/ or can relate to my hesitation on its use based > on my teachers warnings. > Thanks, > Trevor > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ > > > > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2006 Report Share Posted September 8, 2006 I guess that there are no coincidences, are there? You might want to do a archival search (I don't remember if it in CHA or TCM, so check out both), putting in Ting Li Zi. Pretty important discussion, IMHO. All the best and a great weekend to all! Yehuda trevor_erikson <trevor_erikson wrote: Thank you Yehuda, I have only resently joined the group in this past week so I am unaware of previous conversations. I appreciate your response. I am still very interested in what people think about TLZ's use in paediatrics. Thanks, Trevor , wrote: > > Dear Trevor, > > Two or three weeks ago we were engaged in a lively discussion specifically on this issue: the properties and clinical applications of Ting Li Zi. I don't know if you are posting as an afterthought to that discussion or just serendipitously by coincidence. Either way, your thoughts enpower the approach I am taking. Just to catch up those who have been following my wife's progress. I had considered using TLZ as one of the " voices " in the changing formulas I decoct to treat her complex seizure and movement disorder. Her seizures are accompanied by thick, clear, abundant, gurgling phlegm, with great difficulty swallowing, and the gurgling aspect intriqued me to suggest to my mentor, Dr. Zhang, that we use it. He agreed, and suggested using a dose of 15g whenever the phlegm would increase, which also BTW has been a warning sign of an impending seizure, within the next 2-3 days. In addition, as you may know, we have been using a rather large dose of raw Da > Huang, to complement to clearing of heat in the upper jiao. I had considered using Mang Xiao as well, as she tends to be quite dry. But Dr. Zhang pointed out that because her stools have been formed, soft and foul smelling, that indicates damp heat, in which case moistening MX would be inappropriate. Then I had another thought: using a very small dose of powdered Magnesium Citrate, for the following reason: Her syndrome has been accompanied by constant tremors and painful muscle spasms. A deficiency of Mg can be the very cause of this. The result has been pretty amazing: Phlegm is down by about 80%, urination has increased only slightly in frequency, stools are now soft and formed but not foul smelling (with just the Da Huang in a larger dose, there was a tendency toward diarrhea). and best of all, the muscle spasms are at least 50% less. > I emphasize that I am not going to use the TLZ except when phlegm becomes more prominent, but as I mentioned in a previous post, it would appear that as with Shi Chang Pu, the phlegm transforming quality of Ting Li Zi, has versatility and multiple applications. > > One question I would like to ask the group, though. Is there any literature comparing the function of Mang Xiao and Magnesium Citrate. (Is Mg Cit. listed as a medicinal substance in the Zhong yao da ci dian?) > > Respectfully, > > Yehuda Frischman L.Ac., CST, SER > www.traditionaljewishmedicine.com > > trevor_erikson <trevor_erikson wrote: > Hello all, > I am currently dedicating my post graduate studies to that of paediatrics. From my 5 > years of undergraduate studies I learned that the herb Ting Li Zi has a very violent nature > and is seldom used, being reserved for the Tan Yin type disorders and more specifically > Xuan Yin or pleurisy. To my surprise, while I was interning in Chengsha, Hunan, last year, > I found that many doctors prescribed this herb, even tor conditions that didn't seem to be > too severe ( they were obviously excess but not severe). Many paediatric research reports > form China also mention the use of this herb. I was surprised to see Ting Li Zi used so > much, especially for children whose bodies are more delicate. Obviously Ting Li Zi gives > good results in the treatment of cough and asthma but I would like to know if any other > practitioners use this herb regularly and/ or can relate to my hesitation on its use based > on my teachers warnings. > Thanks, > Trevor > http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/ > > > > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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