Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 Hello, There have been a few references to it, and I've been hearing about it for some time: Are there any refernces to the use of powders as employed (so I hear) at SIOM? Does anyone have experience working with decoctions made from ground raw herbs? Here in Florida I know an esteemed doctor who actually puts ground raw herbs in capsules. Any insight would be appreciated. Sincerely, Brandt Stickley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 That is the traditional way to do so.., any formulas called " xxxx san " was raw herbs ground to the powder form..., the " GMP " standard herbs are modern techniques to fit into this modern society my two cents Christine --- Brandt Stickley <kbstickley wrote: > Hello, > > There have been a few references to it, and I've > been hearing about it > for some time: Are there any refernces to the use > of powders as > employed (so I hear) at SIOM? Does anyone have > experience working > with decoctions made from ground raw herbs? Here in > Florida I know an > esteemed doctor who actually puts ground raw herbs > in capsules. Any > insight would be appreciated. > > Sincerely, > > Brandt Stickley > > > > > > > > Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM, DAOM BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM) 310-951-8698 (cel) panasiaintl " I think, therefore I am. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 I am familiar with these distinctions. My question regards the specific way that SIOM dispenses formulas not traditionally designated as San, using ground raw herbs. Bensky mentions it in the formulas book. Thanks, Brandt , Christine Chang <panasiaintl wrote: > > That is the traditional way to do so.., any formulas > called " xxxx san " was raw herbs ground to the powder > form..., the " GMP " standard herbs are modern > techniques to fit into this modern society > > > my two cents > > Christine > --- Brandt Stickley <kbstickley wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > There have been a few references to it, and I've > > been hearing about it > > for some time: Are there any refernces to the use > > of powders as > > employed (so I hear) at SIOM? Does anyone have > > experience working > > with decoctions made from ground raw herbs? Here in > > Florida I know an > > esteemed doctor who actually puts ground raw herbs > > in capsules. Any > > insight would be appreciated. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Brandt Stickley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM, DAOM > BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee > American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM) > 310-951-8698 (cel) > panasiaintl > > " I think, therefore I am. " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Hello Brandt, I have used raw herbal powders in decoction quite a lot. I believe bensky calls them a draft. Anyways I was given a good quality herb grinder from my mentor Dr Kinson Wu. He taught my how to make a draft by rough grinding a formula down, giving it to the patient in between 10 to 15 gram doses each time. What that means is a heaping tablespoon in a cup and a half of water, brought to a boil, and then depending on the herbs, strained right away or allowed to cook for twenty minutes. I found this technique to be quite efficient because I and the patient use less herbs, the cooking time is less, and the overall cost is lower. The only draw back is having to grind the formula in the first place. Dr Wu makes all his own indivual honey pills as well and because of all the extra work involved, is only able to see about five or so patients a day. Best Trevor , " Brandt Stickley " <kbstickley wrote: > > Hello, > > There have been a few references to it, and I've been hearing about it > for some time: Are there any refernces to the use of powders as > employed (so I hear) at SIOM? Does anyone have experience working > with decoctions made from ground raw herbs? Here in Florida I know an > esteemed doctor who actually puts ground raw herbs in capsules. Any > insight would be appreciated. > > Sincerely, > > Brandt Stickley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 I've now seen a couple of references to putting herbs into capsule form. Wouldn't that effect how they are metabolized, since you wouldn't get the help of salivary amylases and the like? Does that change the effectiveness? Thanks, --Sarah Sarah E. Rivkin, MS, LAc, Dipl. OM www.slopeacupuncture.com , " Brandt Stickley " <kbstickley wrote: > > Hello, > > There have been a few references to it, and I've been hearing about it > for some time: Are there any refernces to the use of powders as > employed (so I hear) at SIOM? Does anyone have experience working > with decoctions made from ground raw herbs? Here in Florida I know an > esteemed doctor who actually puts ground raw herbs in capsules. Any > insight would be appreciated. > > Sincerely, > > Brandt Stickley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Hi Sarah, I use ground raw herbs often. I grind them up myself with one of those heavy duty grinders. They are very handy. I always give people the choice and find the compliance and pocketbook is more condusive to powdered herbs. Yes you are right. I do tell them too, that taking capsulated powders are the least effective as they are almost all the way through the stomach before the capsule is broken down. Results are still obvious though it may take longer. I do not cap them. This they have to do themselves. I don't want to take the time for that. I do cap them for my son, as it is the only way he will take them. Often too people just spoon up the powder into a pot, and simmer briefly, or let steep in boiling water. Then there is also the method of the honey balls. This last one doesn't seem to atttractive to people I notice. Marjorie - Sarah Rivkin Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:02 AM Re: Powder Herbs I've now seen a couple of references to putting herbs into capsule form. Wouldn't that effect how they are metabolized, since you wouldn't get the help of salivary amylases and the like? Does that change the effectiveness? Thanks, --Sarah Sarah E. Rivkin, MS, LAc, Dipl. OM www.slopeacupuncture.com , " Brandt Stickley " <kbstickley wrote: > > Hello, > > There have been a few references to it, and I've been hearing about it > for some time: Are there any refernces to the use of powders as > employed (so I hear) at SIOM? Does anyone have experience working > with decoctions made from ground raw herbs? Here in Florida I know an > esteemed doctor who actually puts ground raw herbs in capsules. Any > insight would be appreciated. > > Sincerely, > > Brandt Stickley > Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.5/451 - Release 9/19/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 On 9/21/06, trevor_erikson <trevor_erikson wrote: He taught my how to make a draft by rough grinding a formula down, giving it to the patient in between 10 to 15 gram doses each time. What that means is a heaping tablespoon in a cup and a half of water, brought to a boil, and then depending on the herbs, strained right away or allowed to cook for twenty minutes. On what basis do you make that determination? More superficial the target of the formula, the less time needed for cooking? -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Exactly. If the target area is more superficial, ie an acute wind cold strike or if the formula countains larger amounts of sensitive aromatic/ pungent herbs then I would probably only cook the draft for up to five minutes. Trevor , " Al Stone " <al wrote: > > On 9/21/06, trevor_erikson <trevor_erikson wrote: > > He > taught my how to make a draft by rough grinding a formula down, giving > it to the patient > in between 10 to 15 gram doses each time. What that means is a heaping > tablespoon in a > cup and a half of water, brought to a boil, and then depending on the > herbs, strained right > away or allowed to cook for twenty minutes. > > On what basis do you make that determination? More superficial the target of > the formula, the less time needed for cooking? > > -- > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2006 Report Share Posted September 22, 2006 Curious that so many grind their own when Mayway sells most herbs in unsulphured raw powders. Those of you who grind your own care to comment on why you spend the extra time? I used to grind mine, but buying herbs like sheng di pre-ground is a blessing. -Tim Sharpe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 The use of ground raw herbs in a tea bag (a draft) makes boiling a formula much easier for patients who are pressured for time. We use this method of administration frequently at the PCOM clinic here in Chicago. I think this may be what you are referring to. -Steve On Sep 21, 2006, at 8:39 AM, Brandt Stickley wrote: > I am familiar with these distinctions. My question regards the > specific way that SIOM dispenses formulas not traditionally designated > as San, using ground raw herbs. Bensky mentions it in the formulas > book. > > Thanks, > > Brandt > > , Christine Chang > <panasiaintl wrote: >> >> That is the traditional way to do so.., any formulas >> called " xxxx san " was raw herbs ground to the powder >> form..., the " GMP " standard herbs are modern >> techniques to fit into this modern society >> >> >> my two cents >> >> Christine >> --- Brandt Stickley <kbstickley wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> There have been a few references to it, and I've >>> been hearing about it >>> for some time: Are there any refernces to the use >>> of powders as >>> employed (so I hear) at SIOM? Does anyone have >>> experience working >>> with decoctions made from ground raw herbs? Here in >>> Florida I know an >>> esteemed doctor who actually puts ground raw herbs >>> in capsules. Any >>> insight would be appreciated. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Brandt Stickley >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> Christine Wei Chang, LAc, MTOM, DAOM >> BOD & Herbal Medicine Committee >> American Association of Oriental Medicine (AAOM) >> 310-951-8698 (cel) >> panasiaintl >> >> " I think, therefore I am. " >> > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 I was told that the herbs do not keep very well unless you have the equipment to extract all moisture content from the herbs, (freeze drying?) for instance companies like Koda (whose powders are very expensive). If you are powdering your own, then moulds will grow very quickly if they are kept. Unless they are herbs that have antimicrobial actions, like huang lian. I was told that herbs such as fu ling will start to go " off " very quickly. This sounded reasonable to me, does anybody concur? Lea Starck. , " Tim Sharpe " <listserve wrote: > > Curious that so many grind their own when Mayway sells most herbs in > unsulphured raw powders. Those of you who grind your own care to comment on > why you spend the extra time? I used to grind mine, but buying herbs like > sheng di pre-ground is a blessing. > > -Tim Sharpe > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 , Stephen Bonzak <smb021169 wrote: > > The use of ground raw herbs in a tea bag (a draft) makes boiling a > formula much easier for patients who are pressured for time. We use > this method of administration frequently at the PCOM clinic here in > Chicago. I think this may be what you are referring to. On a similar note...If you make your own liniments, grind the herbs first, then when you soak them in liquor or vinegar the formula will need far less time to steep before it can be used. The other advantage is that you can take the mud of the steeped ground herbs out of the jar and use the mud as a paste for topical application. Just wrap the mud in gauze and apply it to the affected site. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2006 Report Share Posted September 23, 2006 All this powder talk reminds me of when we used to grind herbs in a herbal pharmacy I worked in. We quickly learned what didn't work- Sheng di - bad, bad idea. Di Long - just really creepy. And E jiao which would melt with the heat and bond (like glue!) to the insides of the grinder. Still at home I grind up huang lian, chuan chan jia was an interesting experience. doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2006 Report Share Posted September 24, 2006 Why would any ground raw formula need to be cooked longer than 10 minutes? When the material is powdered you get immediate water saturation of the entire plant/mineral fiber. I would be surprised if you extracted " more " from a raw powder with longer boiling. When I started doing raw powders several years ago I had to rethink the preparation concepts we all originally learned. Some issues become a little murky IMO, cooking times is one for sure. The subtle art of altering cook time to alter function is tough to know for ground raw. Da huang is a great example. How long of a cook differentiates it's clear heat vs purgative effects? I don't know of any literature on the subject. Other unclear issues involve potency. Most people I know dose significantly lower with raw powders. However, some herbs like huo ma ren are routinely ground - so the dosing already considers that and it's dosage shouldn't be lowered when adding to other ground raw herbs. Here's an example: Assume a typical sample whole herb formula of 100g with 15g of huo ma ren. Many use 1 bag for 2 days, so 50g per day including 7.5g of huo ma ren. Now in general, practitioners utilizing ground raw herbs would give 9-12g per day, not unlike granulars. If herbs are reduced in dosage roughly proportionally in this scenario you would only get 1.5g of huo ma ren. Since huo ma ren's moistening function is largely d/t it's physical properties, this would not be an ideal dosage. Other related dosing issues involve the degree to which bioavailability is increased d/t grinding. Roots, barks, and other dense fibrous matter will likely gain the most because their entire surface area will be made available after grinding. Leaves, flowers, and the like will I think gain less from the grinding process. So formula ratios will need to be adjusted from the norm to compensate for this. Other issues such as rancidity make it advantageous to order some herbs whole to grind as needed, e.g. bai zi ren, huo ma ren. I would appreciate any feedback on what herbs others have found to be prone to spoilage. Fu Ling was mentioned recently. Nearly all of this is based on my personal experience. I welcome the input or objections of anyone with formal or experiential knowledge on this matter. Tim Sharpe L.Ac. trevor_erikson Friday, September 22, 2006 8:47 AM Exactly. If the target area is more superficial, ie an acute wind cold strike or if the formula contains larger amounts of sensitive aromatic/ pungent herbs then I would probably only cook the draft for up to five minutes. Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2006 Report Share Posted September 24, 2006 , " Tim Sharpe " <listserve wrote: > Other unclear issues involve potency. Most people I know dose significantly > lower with raw powders. > Many use 1 bag for 2 days, so 50g per day including 7.5g of huo ma ren. Now > in general, practitioners utilizing ground raw herbs would give 9-12g per > day, not unlike granulars. You bring up some good points, Tim, especially about awareness of the ratios of different meds when used as powders. Boiling the powder solves the hygiene problem, and using a giant teabag solves the filtering problem. The water circulation is probably not as good at the interior of the teabag, but I would agree that the method is still quite useful. About the da huang thread, I think the breakdown of the purgative constituents has more to do with the amount of time that they are exposed to the boiling temperature, rather than the amount of time that it takes them to enter the solution. Maybe a little less time is needed to reduce its purgative effect? But probably not too much, since da huang should be crushed before use anyway. Directed at no one in particular: While it is true that the increased surface area and bioavailability of powders gives a bit more mileage per gram, why does our community constantly underdose our patients? Is giving someone 9-12 grams of powdered herbs per day ethical when the standard of care is at least 12-18 grams of approx. 5:1 extract per day? Can we advertise this as Chinese medicine even though we are giving a fraction of the medicine that is used in Chinese " medicine " ? Is the main issue cost? Should we give patients the option of $3 per pack for Chinese medicine or $1 per pack for placebo? Should we at least inform them that the doses that we are using are far below the standard for every hospital and small clinic in China? People often split one pack into 2 days, whereas the standard dosing in the East is one pack per day. People often rationalize this (largely economic) decision based on the notion that " Westerners don't have a history of using Chinese herbs, and are more sensitive to them as a result. " Never mind that many Chinese people have never taken the herbs that you are prescribing before. Imagine this scenario. You go to a untouched rural area of an ethnically Samoan island. All the locals are bigger than you in terms of body mass, but none have encountered Western drugs before. Do you give them half doses of aspirin? Half doses of anaesthetic? Half doses of antibiotics? Is this ethical? Is it authentic? Should it be advertised as authentic WM? We praise CM for having thousands of years of experience and observation, then completely discard the results and recommendations of all of that experience in favor of trail-blazing a new path on unknowing guinea pig patients. Why? Because we fear to charge them the cost of the raw materials (possibly even lining our own pockets while we provide them)? Because we are worried that they won't taste good? They taste bad to everyone. Everyone hates to pay for them. But it is medicine, not recreation, why not just deal with it? Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Eric, I am in complete agreement with you on this issue. Chinese Herbology uses, as Simon Mills put it, ³heroic dosages². I often use large dosages- fearlessly- and I mostly get the results that I am seeking. This is especially important in managing acute cases. But it is also important with, say, managing side effects of chemo and radiation. And pain, and and and..... But there is a place for lower dosages.- long term tonification for instance. And here, there is a useful place for prepared formulas. That said: if we can get results with a lower dose, shouldn¹t we use less? To use your example: if your depression was alleviated with 5 mgs Prozac, why use the standard dose of 20 mgs? Increasing the dose risks increasing the side effects. And with herbs and with drugs it is nearly always axiomatic: increase the effects and thus increase the side effects. We shouldn¹t be afraid of using large quantities of herbs if it¹s called for, yet we have an obligation to discover the lowest effective dosage for that patient. Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts 215-438-2977 Fax 215-849-3338 Directed at no one in particular: While it is true that the increased surface area and bioavailability of powders gives a bit more mileage per gram, why does our community constantly underdose our patients? Is giving someone 9-12 grams of powdered herbs per day ethical when the standard of care is at least 12-18 grams of approx. 5:1 extract per day? Can we advertise this as Chinese medicine even though we are giving a fraction of the medicine that is used in Chinese " medicine " ? Is the main issue cost? Should we give patients the option of $3 per pack for Chinese medicine or $1 per pack for placebo? Should we at least inform them that the doses that we are using are far below the standard for every hospital and small clinic in China? People often split one pack into 2 days, whereas the standard dosing in the East is one pack per day. People often rationalize this (largely economic) decision based on the notion that " Westerners don't have a history of using Chinese herbs, and are more sensitive to them as a result. " Never mind that many Chinese people have never taken the herbs that you are prescribing before. Imagine this scenario. You go to a untouched rural area of an ethnically Samoan island. All the locals are bigger than you in terms of body mass, but none have encountered Western drugs before. Do you give them half doses of aspirin? Half doses of anaesthetic? Half doses of antibiotics? Is this ethical? Is it authentic? Should it be advertised as authentic WM? We praise CM for having thousands of years of experience and observation, then completely discard the results and recommendations of all of that experience in favor of trail-blazing a new path on unknowing guinea pig patients. Why? Because we fear to charge them the cost of the raw materials (possibly even lining our own pockets while we provide them)? Because we are worried that they won't taste good? They taste bad to everyone. Everyone hates to pay for them. But it is medicine, not recreation, why not just deal with it? Eric Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 I was told by the chair of the herbal dept at one of the larger schools that Chinese literature suggests that powdered raw has been found to be 5-10 times more potent than whole raw. I found this hard to swallow then, and still do. No source was provided, and I honestly don't think he cared enough to research it on his own since he never prescribed that way. As some support of the issue Jake Fratkin told me once that his herbal mentor recommended 9-12g per day of raw powders. Again, not at all conclusive. I personally base my dosing on what seems to be efficacious, and more importantly - safe. Depending on the amount of increased efficacy though - it's possible to exceed the recommend dosing for many herbs - especially if 10x holds true. Another related issue, about 8 months ago someone - I think it was you Eric, mentioned the increased toxicity of powdered minerals. As for cost, it is not much of an issue for ground raw. If I doubled my dosing it would add less than $1.50 to the formula at an average of about $.014 per gram. Lastly, I want to bring up something important from the thread I started in February on this issue. In addition to raw powder decoctions in general, this is also in regards to consuming some or all of the crude powdered herb, which is easy to do because it often " vaporizes " in decoction - unless you powder it yourself. (Home-made powders seem to have much larger particulate). ____________________ Tim Sharpe wrote: > - My final cooking method concern is whether any toxic compounds > bound in the plant fiber will be released upon grinding and cooking. > Could a previously safe herb release a Pandora's box of whoop ass once the > plant fiber is pulverized? ____________________ George Mandler Wednesday, February 08, 2006 8:50 AM This would be my biggest concern since with grinding we are ingesting all compounds. There can be many inorganic solvents not hydrated by water, so during a decoction they remain in the herb instead of dispersing in the water. What is released during a decoction depends on the hydrophilic/lipophilic ratio of the compounds, but in general many of the well known chemicals are lipophilic. If they get ground into a powder you are ingesting all the hydrophilic and lipophilic compounds. (I believe that paper released 8 months ago by Saper et al. reporting heavy metals found in Ayurvedic herbs used the ground raw herbs. This is the way Banyan distributes their powdered Ayurvedic herbs and back some 5 years Banyan did not guarantee any CA on herb safety.) --george ______________________ Eric Brand Monday, September 25, 2006 12:29 AM While it is true that the increased surface area and bioavailability of powders gives a bit more mileage per gram, why does our community constantly underdose our patients? Is giving someone 9-12 grams of powdered herbs per day ethical when the standard of care is at least 12-18 grams of approx. 5:1 extract per day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 , Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > But there is a place for lower dosages.- long term tonification for > instance. And here, there is a useful place for prepared formulas. I totally agree. And history and mainstream modern Chinese clinical medicine also agrees. Many of the supplementing formulas were historically made into pill forms, and tonic wines give palpable effects even though the whole 3 liter bottle has only 5 or 8 qian of any given ingredient in it. I'm not advocating ONLY and ALWAYS using high-doses, I'm just advocating routinely using standard doses. Honestly, there are many people who have never tried using standard doses. It is a bit like going straight to needling obscure points without ever trying out St-36 and Sp-6. It's not to say that those other points don't work, but sometimes people seem to think it is so hip to be different and take the road less travelled that they don't ever even try the common sense basic approach. The basics aren't meant to be rigid and limiting, but they are basic standards for the simple reason that they generally work consistently. > That said: if we can get results with a lower dose, shouldn¹t we use less? Again, I agree with you that the lowest effective dose is the one that should be used. But I do wonder how many times people have changed their diagnosis looking for a better effect when the problem or side-effects could have been solved simply by dosing a little higher or a little lower. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 , " Tim Sharpe " <listserve wrote: > > I was told by the chair of the herbal dept at one of the larger schools that > Chinese literature suggests that powdered raw has been found to be 5-10 > times more potent than whole raw. Sounds a bit extreme to me. More potent, for sure, but 5-10 times? By that rationale, we'd be using lu rong at a decoction dose of 10-20 grams three times per day. Maybe for some things that are clearly better utilized in powder, this may be true- san qi, for example, is more effective as a powder. In Chinese texts, a good number of medicinals are given a lower dose range when used in powders than they are when used in decoctions, but it is rarely 5-10 times lower. And these are overshadowed by the vast majority of medicinals that are just given one dose range, followed by: " in decoctions, powders, or pills. " Granted, Chinese books are often a bit vague and expect you to know how to vary things accordingly (for example, they always say " use a suitable amount externally " ), but I think that if powders were that much more potent and effective, decoctions would have been done away with two thousand years ago. Judging from people's responses to the Salvia divinorum thread, I'd wager that any number of people on this list could give you an estimate on the reliability of the 5-10X potency debate of ground vs. decocted, based on a simple assessment of a relatively common experience that is easily and palpably quantified: ingestion of magic mushrooms. Many people would agree that decocting mushrooms as a tea is slightly less strong than eating them straight, which is in turn slightly less strong than eating them straight if they have first been finely ground to increase their surface area. But 5-10 times stronger? You'd be hard-pressed to find people who would support that theory. Another related issue, about 8 months ago someone - I think > it was you Eric, mentioned the increased toxicity of powdered minerals. If it was me, I would have only mentioned increased toxicity about medicinals that actually possess toxicity, such as dai zhe shi. Actually, many minerals are meant to be taken as powders. Others are meant to be decocted- for the ones that are meant to be decocted and are instead taken directly as powders, it should be considered virgin territory. Doing something that hasn't been done before. Maybe toxic, maybe benign, maybe even helpful and revolutionary. But you don't have 2000 years of experience at your back when you do this, and your malpractice lawyer might not endorse your pioneering. Side note, then I will shut up and stop taking so much bandwidth... I think storage of powders has a lot to do with climate. Most things degrade with light, heat, moisture, and oxygen. Minimize those things and you will maximize shelf-life. Herbs will mold much faster in Hong Kong than they will in Montana. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 I think that the most important point to be made is whether a formula is effective or not. In the times that I like to use herbal powders, administered as a draft, I find that cost and patient compliance are weighing factors in having an effective outcome. The prep time and expense for some patients does, in my experience, deter them from taking CM. If all they have to do is add a heaping tablespoon of ground herbs to a cup of water and bring it to a boil, I have found that patients will follow through with the treatment better. My usual dose is 15 grams per serving. At 3 servings a day thats 45 grams a day. I don't think that this is a trail blazing idea. Many of the formulas listed in Benskys formula book mention the original use of the formula being ground into powders and administered via drafts in dosages, usually between 6-9g a dose, which is even lower than I or my teacher use. Is that to say that we don't get good results or that the formula founders didn't either? I think that we have to be carefull assuming so called standards for treatment. Some of my teachers have moved back to China so that they can actually have more therapeutic range with their patients. Meaning if they wanted to, they could prescribe 100g of Fu Zi and watch the result. This is true with the lower end dosages as well. I feel that the real beauty of CM is that we have room to explore. We can play with dosage and ingredients much more so than western medicine, all for the betterment of the patient and our profesion. If practitoners hadn't " trail blazed " new ideas related to standards of care then many more species would be extinct on our planet than are already, as in using Shui Niu Jiao instead of Xi Jiao. We would also still be using ren shen instead, of the more recently common, dang shen. As Dr Kingson Wu told me when I passed my liscencing exams, ' Don't simply believe everything that you are told to be true, prove it in your clinical practice. " Trevor , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus wrote: > > , " Tim Sharpe " > <listserve@> wrote: > > > Other unclear issues involve potency. Most people I know dose > significantly > > lower with raw powders. > > Many use 1 bag for 2 days, so 50g per day including 7.5g of huo ma > ren. Now > > in general, practitioners utilizing ground raw herbs would give > 9-12g per > > day, not unlike granulars. > > You bring up some good points, Tim, especially about awareness of the > ratios of different meds when used as powders. > > Boiling the powder solves the hygiene problem, and using a giant > teabag solves the filtering problem. The water circulation is > probably not as good at the interior of the teabag, but I would agree > that the method is still quite useful. > > About the da huang thread, I think the breakdown of the purgative > constituents has more to do with the amount of time that they are > exposed to the boiling temperature, rather than the amount of time > that it takes them to enter the solution. Maybe a little less time is > needed to reduce its purgative effect? But probably not too much, > since da huang should be crushed before use anyway. > > Directed at no one in particular: > > While it is true that the increased surface area and bioavailability > of powders gives a bit more mileage per gram, why does our community > constantly underdose our patients? Is giving someone 9-12 grams of > powdered herbs per day ethical when the standard of care is at least > 12-18 grams of approx. 5:1 extract per day? Can we advertise this as > Chinese medicine even though we are giving a fraction of the medicine > that is used in Chinese " medicine " ? > > Is the main issue cost? Should we give patients the option of $3 per > pack for Chinese medicine or $1 per pack for placebo? Should we at > least inform them that the doses that we are using are far below the > standard for every hospital and small clinic in China? > > People often split one pack into 2 days, whereas the standard dosing > in the East is one pack per day. People often rationalize this > (largely economic) decision based on the notion that " Westerners don't > have a history of using Chinese herbs, and are more sensitive to them > as a result. " Never mind that many Chinese people have never taken > the herbs that you are prescribing before. Imagine this scenario. > You go to a untouched rural area of an ethnically Samoan island. All > the locals are bigger than you in terms of body mass, but none have > encountered Western drugs before. Do you give them half doses of > aspirin? Half doses of anaesthetic? Half doses of antibiotics? Is > this ethical? Is it authentic? Should it be advertised as authentic WM? > > We praise CM for having thousands of years of experience and > observation, then completely discard the results and recommendations > of all of that experience in favor of trail-blazing a new path on > unknowing guinea pig patients. Why? Because we fear to charge them > the cost of the raw materials (possibly even lining our own pockets > while we provide them)? Because we are worried that they won't taste > good? They taste bad to everyone. Everyone hates to pay for them. > But it is medicine, not recreation, why not just deal with it? > > Eric Brand > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2006 Report Share Posted September 25, 2006 Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts 215-438-2977 Fax 215-849-3338 We are on the same page. When I am getting somewhat satisfactory results, but not really nailing a problem, I always look at dosages first. Before I re-write the formula Cara Again, I agree with you that the lowest effective dose is the one that should be used. But I do wonder how many times people have changed their diagnosis looking for a better effect when the problem or side-effects could have been solved simply by dosing a little higher or a little lower. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Re: Large doses of herbs. I would like to discuss two points. The first is that in China, the quality of the herbs used is often much poorer than that which is used here in Australia. (I cant speak for the rest of the world.) In China, many dispensary's use, say, grade c and d dang gui, whereas in Australia it is more usual to use a or b grade. Same for many of the herbs. (Of course you can pay for quality herbs in China, but I am talking about your average street dispensary / pharmacy or hospital dispensary.) It is for this reason that I was told that even though I was seeing dosages of often about 30g of raw herbs in China, this wasnt always necessary in practice in Australia. (I had a look at the quality of herbs in many dispensaries in China, and found this to be true.) When I first learnt this, it ran sort of counter to my expectations, but is nonetheless the case. The second point I would like to mention is something that I learnt in a student clinic a few years ago. I had one supervising clinician (new in from China) and he supervised one of my prescriptions and recommended 30g of He Shou Wu for a patient with hair loss.) The next time I saw that patient, my supervising clinician (another Chinese practitioner, but this time a lady) saw the 30g dosage and pointed out to me that from her perspective you shouldnt always start with a huge dosage, as then you have nowhere to go with it. If you start lower then you can always increase it. I thought this was pretty good advice. That being said, I use large doses of herbs such as ban lan gen for acute cases such as Herpes / shingles, and also tend to recommend that some of my western clients take larger than stated doses of Chinese manufactured patent formulae, purely because they are physically larger than the Asian clients the doses were formulated for. My two cents. Lea Starck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 I believe you can buy sheng di in powdered form already. Not sure which distributor does this. -Steve On Sep 24, 2006, at 12:34 AM, wrote: > All this powder talk reminds me of when we used to grind herbs in a > herbal pharmacy I > worked in. We quickly learned what didn't work- Sheng di - bad, bad > idea. Di Long - just > really creepy. And E jiao which would melt with the heat and bond > (like glue!) to the insides > of the grinder. > Still at home I grind up huang lian, chuan chan jia was an interesting > experience. > > doug Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2006 Report Share Posted September 26, 2006 Mayway -Tim Sharpe Stephen Bonzak I believe you can buy sheng di in powdered form already. Not sure which distributor does this. -Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2006 Report Share Posted September 27, 2006 Lea, Your point about adjusting dosages based on patient size (up OR down) is well taken. I find that this factor is often overlooked. Adjusting dose based on age is also important, especially as the population using Chinese medicine ages. IMO, Western CM practitioners need to pay more attention to the issue of variability of dose. As an extension of that, when it comes to using ready-made medicines, one needs to know their equivalency to bulk-dispensed, water-decocted medicinals before one can actually determine the correct dose. Interestingly, more and more in the Chinese journal literature, authors are including such equivalences (i.e., extract ratios) when discussing ready-made medicines used in RCTs. Bob , " Lea Starck " <leabun1 wrote: > > Re: Large doses of herbs. > > I would like to discuss two points. The first is that in China, the quality > of the herbs used is often much poorer than that which is used here in > Australia. (I cant speak for the rest of the world.) In China, many > dispensary's use, say, grade c and d dang gui, whereas in Australia it > is more usual to use a or b grade. Same for many of the herbs. (Of > course you can pay for quality herbs in China, but I am talking about > your average street dispensary / pharmacy or hospital dispensary.) It is > for this reason that I was told that even though I was seeing dosages of > often about 30g of raw herbs in China, this wasnt always necessary in > practice in Australia. (I had a look at the quality of herbs in many > dispensaries in China, and found this to be true.) When I first learnt > this, it ran sort of counter to my expectations, but is nonetheless the > case. > The second point I would like to mention is something that I learnt in a > student clinic a few years ago. I had one supervising clinician (new in > from China) and he supervised one of my prescriptions and > recommended 30g of He Shou Wu for a patient with hair loss.) The > next time I saw that patient, my supervising clinician (another Chinese > practitioner, but this time a lady) saw the 30g dosage and pointed out > to me that from her perspective you shouldnt always start with a huge > dosage, as then you have nowhere to go with it. If you start lower then > you can always increase it. I thought this was pretty good advice. > That being said, I use large doses of herbs such as ban lan gen for > acute cases such as Herpes / shingles, and also tend to recommend > that some of my western clients take larger than stated doses of > Chinese manufactured patent formulae, purely because they are > physically larger than the Asian clients the doses were formulated for. > My two cents. > Lea Starck. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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