Organic raw herbs - salvia divinorum

[Guest guest]

Can anyone tell me the Chinese name for salvia divinorum.

The species that is used for withdrawels.

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac.,Santa Cruz, CA.

[Guest guest]

, " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy

wrote:

>

> Can anyone tell me the Chinese name for salvia divinorum.

> The species that is used for withdrawels.

 

It is a sterile cultigen (a plant that cannot be propagated sexually,

raised purely by human beings via asexual propagation [cuttings],

doesn't occur in the wild). It was historically limited to an area of

only one square kilometer on the entire planet. It was discovered in

the garden of Mexican shamans, and was unknown to the outer world until

recently. Even if there is a Chinese name for it, the plant never

existed in China in the past.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Thanks Eric. Seems to go well with its use.

Any recommendations on where to purchase?

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., . Santa Cruz, CA. 95060

[Guest guest]

Do tell!!!!!! 8-D

annb.

 

 

 

Thanks Eric. Seems to go well with its use.

Any recommendations on where to purchase?

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., . Santa Cruz, CA. 95060

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release 9/22/06

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

If you have never used Salvia D., I highly recommend self- bio assy first

before ever handing it out to anyone. You can find many online suppliers.

This is something to do your homework on. Some states also have legality

issues as this is an entheogen.

 

The Oaxacan shamans that grow these cultivars grow them as far away from

their houses as possible. This plant spirit teacher is revered but feared

even by the Shaman who use them. As Eric said, this is a truew cultivar-not

a single trace of where this came from. The Oaxacan Shaman say it was a gift

from the star people.

 

Kip

 

 

On Behalf Of

snakeoil.works

Friday, September 22, 2006 4:25 PM

 

Re: Re: Organic raw herbs - salvia divinorum

 

 

 

Do tell!!!!!! 8-D

annb.

 

Thanks Eric. Seems to go well with its use.

Any recommendations on where to purchase?

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., . Santa Cruz, CA. 95060

 

-------------------------

 

----------

 

 

 

Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release 9/22/06

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy

wrote:

>

> Thanks Eric. Seems to go well with its use.

> Any recommendations on where to purchase?

 

I've never heard anything about the use that you are implying.

Purchasing- you are on your own for that one.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

Hello Ed:

 

For more info on salvia divinorum check out http://www.sagewisdom.org

Available there is a newsletter you can to which is

informative of various scientific studies concerning the herb as well as

reports on evolving legal status. Also, if it is legal in your state,

you should be able to buy 5-15x extracts and even possibly cuttings or

plant specimens in what are commonly known here in Canada as head shops

and etheogen supply stores.

 

I'd be personally curious if you have come across the African herb iboga

in your explorations of herbs for withdrawal purposes. It and its

derivitive, ibogaine, has shown great promise for people struggling with

serious addictions.

 

Cheers,

Greg Campbell

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Ed Kasper LAc

Thursday, September 21, 2006 4:24 PM

 

Re: Organic raw herbs - salvia divinorum

 

 

 

Can anyone tell me the Chinese name for salvia divinorum.

The species that is used for withdrawels.

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac.,Santa Cruz, CA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think it is a bad idea for acupuncturists to prescribe an herb that is

also used by people to get high. This could cause serious negative publicity

for the profession in the future. It could even affect malpractice insurance

rates, which are currently fairly reasonable.

Salvia divinorum is also illegal in some countries and a few U.S. states.

People who have smoked it describe the experience as similar to DMT, which

is an intense psychedelic. Do we really want to give this to patients, even

for internal use? What if a patient's kid takes some and smokes it? Even if

the herb has a legitimate therapeutic use, prescribing it could bring

serious problems for TCM. Ecstasy (MDMA) also has legitimate theraputic

potential, as does LSD, but it would be a disaster to prescribe them.

 

.....................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

PO Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

831-335-3165

plantmed

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Gregg, thanks for the link. I am leery of most of the sites

on this herb and looking for reliable information, and your

recommendation seems right on. Much thanks.

 

live free and healthy

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac.,Santa Cruz, CA. 95060

[Guest guest]

I totally agree

Kip

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Bill Schoenbart

Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:01 AM

 

Re: Organic raw herbs - salvia divinorum

 

 

 

I think it is a bad idea for acupuncturists to prescribe an herb that is

also used by people to get high. This could cause serious negative publicity

for the profession in the future. It could even affect malpractice insurance

rates, which are currently fairly reasonable.

Salvia divinorum is also illegal in some countries and a few U.S. states.

People who have smoked it describe the experience as similar to DMT, which

is an intense psychedelic. Do we really want to give this to patients, even

for internal use? What if a patient's kid takes some and smokes it? Even if

the herb has a legitimate therapeutic use, prescribing it could bring

serious problems for TCM. Ecstasy (MDMA) also has legitimate theraputic

potential, as does LSD, but it would be a disaster to prescribe them.

 

.....................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

PO Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

831-335-3165

plantmed (AT) earthlink (DOT) <plantmed%40earthlink.net> net

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Bill Schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> I think it is a bad idea for acupuncturists to prescribe an herb that is

> also used by people to get high. This could cause serious negative

publicity

> for the profession in the future. It could even affect malpractice

insurance

> rates, which are currently fairly reasonable.

 

Exactly.

 

Eric

[Guest guest]

1) Ma huang is just one recent example of a herb that was

/is used for other than its prescribed use. Even after the

ban has been lifted, as an industry, we fail miserably to

watchdog its widespread mis-use. Why do not speak out on the

concentrated standardized phyto-drug and it is specially

targeted to a non-medical (TCM) use (maybe even by some of

those on this list).

hu ma ren ...Chai hu ...ginseng ..yan hu suo... are other

mis-used herbs.

 

2) I am interested in a herb - in this case- Salvia for its

medical, a la TCM, prescribed use.

 

Because a herb is mis-used, or in popular use, then it is

important , as an industry, that we understand that herb. We

have an opportunity to learn from the populace (who misuse

the herb) as well as to take the proper stand. We should

take a stand where the herb is properly used or abused.

 

We really can't treat folks if we are ignorant of how herbs

are misused.

 

live free and healthy

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., . Santa Cruz, CA.

 

............original message ....

 

I think it is a bad idea for acupuncturists to prescribe an

herb that is

also used by people to get high. This could cause serious

negative publicity

for the profession in the future. It could even affect

malpractice insurance

rates, which are currently fairly reasonable.

Salvia divinorum is also illegal in some countries and a few

U.S. states.

People who have smoked it describe the experience as similar

to DMT, which

is an intense psychedelic. Do we really want to give this to

patients, even

for internal use? What if a patient's kid takes some and

smokes it? Even if

the herb has a legitimate therapeutic use, prescribing it

could bring

serious problems for TCM. Ecstasy (MDMA) also has legitimate

theraputic

potential, as does LSD, but it would be a disaster to

prescribe them.

[Guest guest]

I think NOT prescribing an herb because it has mind altering effects at some

doses is a mistake. If the profession ever wants to be truly respected, it needs

to take control of its pharmacopeia and use it responsibly. Not prescribing such

herbs is just throwing in the towel and saying that the prescription of

potentially abused substances should only be in the domain of MDs. Should an MD

not prescribe vicodin to a pain patient because their kids might use it to get

high? c'mon. A better question is whether salvia divinorum is part of chinese

medicine anyway. BTW, many of those who use Salvia div would be offended at the

characterization of it being used to get high. I think many who are even aware

of it treat it as a sacrament.

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy

> 1) Ma huang is just one recent example of a herb that was

> /is used for other than its prescribed use. Even after the

> ban has been lifted, as an industry, we fail miserably to

> watchdog its widespread mis-use. Why do not speak out on the

> concentrated standardized phyto-drug and it is specially

> targeted to a non-medical (TCM) use (maybe even by some of

> those on this list).

> hu ma ren ...Chai hu ...ginseng ..yan hu suo... are other

> mis-used herbs.

>

> 2) I am interested in a herb - in this case- Salvia for its

> medical, a la TCM, prescribed use.

>

> Because a herb is mis-used, or in popular use, then it is

> important , as an industry, that we understand that herb. We

> have an opportunity to learn from the populace (who misuse

> the herb) as well as to take the proper stand. We should

> take a stand where the herb is properly used or abused.

>

> We really can't treat folks if we are ignorant of how herbs

> are misused.

>

> live free and healthy

>

> Ed Kasper L.Ac., . Santa Cruz, CA.

>

> ...........original message ....

>

> I think it is a bad idea for acupuncturists to prescribe an

> herb that is

> also used by people to get high. This could cause serious

> negative publicity

> for the profession in the future. It could even affect

> malpractice insurance

> rates, which are currently fairly reasonable.

> Salvia divinorum is also illegal in some countries and a few

> U.S. states.

> People who have smoked it describe the experience as similar

> to DMT, which

> is an intense psychedelic. Do we really want to give this to

> patients, even

> for internal use? What if a patient's kid takes some and

> smokes it? Even if

> the herb has a legitimate therapeutic use, prescribing it

> could bring

> serious problems for TCM. Ecstasy (MDMA) also has legitimate

> theraputic

> potential, as does LSD, but it would be a disaster to

> prescribe them.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Indeed, do not many of our herbal substances have the

potential for mind-altering effects? Think of the

whole category of medicinals used specifically for

that purpose - herbs that calm the shen and types of

mental derangement. I suppose part of the discussion

here might be what is a " normal " shen state, and I

believe any substance that has the power to change the

state of consciousness (whether to bring it closer to,

or further away from " normal " ) can properly be

considered " mind-altering " . I once made a formula for

myself that included a higher-end dose of shi chang pu

- let me tell you, how intensely bright the colors

were and how deliciously fragrant the aromas were...

it was a nearly psychedelic experience! Yes, I agree

it is essential that we know the mind-altering

potentials of our pharmacopoeia so we can responsibly

consider this in our intentional and unintentional

uses (possible side effects) of those substances.

 

 

 

--- wrote:

 

> I think NOT prescribing an herb because it has mind

> altering effects at some doses is a mistake. If the

> profession ever wants to be truly respected, it

> needs to take control of its pharmacopeia and use it

> responsibly. Not prescribing such herbs is just

> throwing in the towel and saying that the

> prescription of potentially abused substances should

> only be in the domain of MDs. Should an MD not

> prescribe vicodin to a pain patient because their

> kids might use it to get high? c'mon. A better

> question is whether salvia divinorum is part of

> chinese medicine anyway. BTW, many of those who use

> Salvia div would be offended at the characterization

> of it being used to get high. I think many who are

> even aware of it treat it as a sacrament.

>

 

>

> -------------- Original message

> ----------------------

> " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy

> > 1) Ma huang is just one recent example of a herb

> that was

> > /is used for other than its prescribed use. Even

> after the

> > ban has been lifted, as an industry, we fail

> miserably to

> > watchdog its widespread mis-use. Why do not speak

> out on the

> > concentrated standardized phyto-drug and it is

> specially

> > targeted to a non-medical (TCM) use (maybe even by

> some of

> > those on this list).

> > hu ma ren ...Chai hu ...ginseng ..yan hu suo...

> are other

> > mis-used herbs.

> >

> > 2) I am interested in a herb - in this case-

> Salvia for its

> > medical, a la TCM, prescribed use.

> >

> > Because a herb is mis-used, or in popular use,

> then it is

> > important , as an industry, that we understand

> that herb. We

> > have an opportunity to learn from the populace

> (who misuse

> > the herb) as well as to take the proper stand. We

> should

> > take a stand where the herb is properly used or

> abused.

> >

> > We really can't treat folks if we are ignorant of

> how herbs

> > are misused.

> >

> > live free and healthy

> >

> > Ed Kasper L.Ac., . Santa Cruz, CA.

> >

> > ...........original message ....

> >

> > I think it is a bad idea for acupuncturists to

> prescribe an

> > herb that is

> > also used by people to get high. This could cause

> serious

> > negative publicity

> > for the profession in the future. It could even

> affect

> > malpractice insurance

> > rates, which are currently fairly reasonable.

> > Salvia divinorum is also illegal in some countries

> and a few

> > U.S. states.

> > People who have smoked it describe the experience

> as similar

> > to DMT, which

> > is an intense psychedelic. Do we really want to

> give this to

> > patients, even

> > for internal use? What if a patient's kid takes

> some and

> > smokes it? Even if

> > the herb has a legitimate therapeutic use,

> prescribing it

> > could bring

> > serious problems for TCM. Ecstasy (MDMA) also has

> legitimate

> > theraputic

> > potential, as does LSD, but it would be a disaster

> to

> > prescribe them.

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Knowing the parameters of the medicinals within our own pharmacopeia is

vastly different from incorporating shamanic entheogens from other cultures.

It was clear to me immediately that whoever started this thread asking about

Salvia D. within TCM was innocently misinformed and just curious. If the

medicine has a tradition of slowly and carefully exploring even milder

plants from other traditions over the course of generations to see where or

if it even fits, shamanic entheogens are a whole other catagory. Perhaps if

you are a true trained shaman, curandero, and herbalist that is willing to

explore the medicine on its own terms for an extended period of time, and

then bring your findings to the elders of the paradigm for verification, it

may be a different story. I'm surprised that herbalits are curious about

plants like Salvia D. when the acknowledged " grandmother " of all entheogens,

Ayahuasca (the vine of the soul), the supreme healer, is left on the shelf.

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:06 AM

 

Re: Re: Organic raw herbs - salvia divinorum

 

 

 

Indeed, do not many of our herbal substances have the

potential for mind-altering effects? Think of the

whole category of medicinals used specifically for

that purpose - herbs that calm the shen and types of

mental derangement. I suppose part of the discussion

here might be what is a " normal " shen state, and I

believe any substance that has the power to change the

state of consciousness (whether to bring it closer to,

or further away from " normal " ) can properly be

considered " mind-altering " . I once made a formula for

myself that included a higher-end dose of shi chang pu

- let me tell you, how intensely bright the colors

were and how deliciously fragrant the aromas were...

it was a nearly psychedelic experience! Yes, I agree

it is essential that we know the mind-altering

potentials of our pharmacopoeia so we can responsibly

consider this in our intentional and unintentional

uses (possible side effects) of those substances.

 

 

 

--- (AT) comcast (DOT) <%40comcast.net> net wrote:

 

> I think NOT prescribing an herb because it has mind

> altering effects at some doses is a mistake. If the

> profession ever wants to be truly respected, it

> needs to take control of its pharmacopeia and use it

> responsibly. Not prescribing such herbs is just

> throwing in the towel and saying that the

> prescription of potentially abused substances should

> only be in the domain of MDs. Should an MD not

> prescribe vicodin to a pain patient because their

> kids might use it to get high? c'mon. A better

> question is whether salvia divinorum is part of

> chinese medicine anyway. BTW, many of those who use

> Salvia div would be offended at the characterization

> of it being used to get high. I think many who are

> even aware of it treat it as a sacrament.

>

 

>

> -------------- Original message

> ----------------------

> " Ed Kasper LAc " <eddy@happyherbalist

<eddy%40happyherbalist.com> .com>

> > 1) Ma huang is just one recent example of a herb

> that was

> > /is used for other than its prescribed use. Even

> after the

> > ban has been lifted, as an industry, we fail

> miserably to

> > watchdog its widespread mis-use. Why do not speak

> out on the

> > concentrated standardized phyto-drug and it is

> specially

> > targeted to a non-medical (TCM) use (maybe even by

> some of

> > those on this list).

> > hu ma ren ...Chai hu ...ginseng ..yan hu suo...

> are other

> > mis-used herbs.

> >

> > 2) I am interested in a herb - in this case-

> Salvia for its

> > medical, a la TCM, prescribed use.

> >

> > Because a herb is mis-used, or in popular use,

> then it is

> > important , as an industry, that we understand

> that herb. We

> > have an opportunity to learn from the populace

> (who misuse

> > the herb) as well as to take the proper stand. We

> should

> > take a stand where the herb is properly used or

> abused.

> >

> > We really can't treat folks if we are ignorant of

> how herbs

> > are misused.

> >

> > live free and healthy

> >

> > Ed Kasper L.Ac., . Santa Cruz, CA.

> >

> > ...........original message ....

> >

> > I think it is a bad idea for acupuncturists to

> prescribe an

> > herb that is

> > also used by people to get high. This could cause

> serious

> > negative publicity

> > for the profession in the future. It could even

> affect

> > malpractice insurance

> > rates, which are currently fairly reasonable.

> > Salvia divinorum is also illegal in some countries

> and a few

> > U.S. states.

> > People who have smoked it describe the experience

> as similar

> > to DMT, which

> > is an intense psychedelic. Do we really want to

> give this to

> > patients, even

> > for internal use? What if a patient's kid takes

> some and

> > smokes it? Even if

> > the herb has a legitimate therapeutic use,

> prescribing it

> > could bring

> > serious problems for TCM. Ecstasy (MDMA) also has

> legitimate

> > theraputic

> > potential, as does LSD, but it would be a disaster

> to

> > prescribe them.

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

http://mail. <>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have no problem with somebody who wants to ingest psychoactive entheogens

on their own. It's a personal choice, where the individual can weigh the

benefits versus the risks. It's a different situation when you start

offering them to patients who assume that your prescription is based on the

tradition you were trained in.

 

It's one thing to suggest to a chemo patient that medical marijuana may help

with their nausea; it's altogether different to suggest that people use

psychedelics. While there are certainly people who use Salvia for spiritual

and ceremonial purposes, there are plenty of others who mis-use it:

 

http://www.hightimes.com/ht/entertainment/content.php?bid=208 & aid=13

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-02-salvia_x.htm

 

Some people may find spiritual inspiration; others may find madness. Are you

prepared to take the responsibility for the latter?

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There is a vast difference between the mind-altering effects of herbs that

calm the spirit and herbs with psychedelic effects. Feel free to try some

Salvia divinorum and see if you still feel that it is no different than

prescribing Suan Zao Ren or Shi Chang Pu.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

>>>Indeed, do not many of our herbal substances have the

potential for mind-altering effects? Think of the

whole category of medicinals used specifically for

that purpose - herbs that calm the shen and types of

mental derangement. >>>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

I suspect that many of the first acupuncturists to be licensed are

" flower children " . As such, we have a unique perspective and desire to

engage in a symbiotic relationship with the plant world. However, I

doubt that any of us feels a messianic need to promulgate entheogens. We

follow in the footsteps of Shen Nong, first tasting and experiencing the

pharmacopeia before we prescribe. As TCM practitioners, we don't

recommend ingesting herbs from other traditions. But, of course, we are

free to participate with the botanical world in whatever way we find

conducive to enhancing ourselves and our relationship with the world.

And tremble at the " legal " consequences.

salvia article

<http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/mg19125711.000>

Peace

David

 

 

, " Bill Schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> There is a vast difference between the mind-altering effects of herbs

that

> calm the spirit and herbs with psychedelic effects. Feel free to try

some

> Salvia divinorum and see if you still feel that it is no different

than

> prescribing Suan Zao Ren or Shi Chang Pu.

>

> - Bill Schoenbart

>

> ............................................

> Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> P.O. Box 8099

> Santa Cruz, CA 95061

>

> office phone: 831-335-3165

> email: plantmed

> ............................................

>

> >>>Indeed, do not many of our herbal substances have the

> potential for mind-altering effects? Think of the

> whole category of medicinals used specifically for

> that purpose - herbs that calm the shen and types of

> mental derangement. >>>

>

>

>