External Pernicious Psycho/spiritual Evils

[Guest guest]

Al's description of gu as being a combination of parasite and curse

reminds me of a concept I have found in say Italian or Mayan traditional

medicine, where there are external pernicious evils of a

psycho/spiritual nature, resulting in the diseases Envidio (envy) and

Susto (fright) caused by jealous or malevolent outsiders. They seem to

be basically shen disturbances and in Mayan medicine at least have their

own pulse signs. What distinguishes them is that they are sent

externally by others. Clearly they are not part of scientized TCM.

 

Has anyone heard of similar concepts either in old literature or through

family traditions or offshore Chinese medicine?

 

--

Karen Vaughan, MSTOM

Licensed Acupuncturist, and Herbalist

253 Garfield Place

Brooklyn, NY 11215

 

(718) 622-6755

 

Co-Conspirator to Make the World A Better Place: Visit

http://www.heroicstories.com/ and join the conspiracy

See my Acupuncture and Herbs website at: http://ksvaughan2.byregion.net/

And my website at Avon Walk for Breast Cancer 2005

[Guest guest]

Karen:

 

Yes, I'm translating an article about Tang Dynasty

ghosts that were thought to bring on disease,

particularly on certain days of the traditional lunar

calendar. Hope to publish this next month.

 

Regards, Jack

 

--- Karen Vaughan <creationsgarden1 wrote:

 

> Al's description of gu as being a combination of

> parasite and curse

> reminds me of a concept I have found in say Italian

> or Mayan traditional

> medicine, where there are external pernicious evils

> of a

> psycho/spiritual nature, resulting in the diseases

> Envidio (envy) and

> Susto (fright) caused by jealous or malevolent

> outsiders. They seem to

> be basically shen disturbances and in Mayan medicine

> at least have their

> own pulse signs. What distinguishes them is that

> they are sent

> externally by others. Clearly they are not part of

> scientized TCM.

>

> Has anyone heard of similar concepts either in old

> literature or through

> family traditions or offshore Chinese medicine?

>

> --

> Karen Vaughan, MSTOM

> Licensed Acupuncturist, and Herbalist

> 253 Garfield Place

> Brooklyn, NY 11215

>

> (718) 622-6755

>

> Co-Conspirator to Make the World A Better Place:

> Visit http://www.heroicstories.com/ and join the

> conspiracy

> See my Acupuncture and Herbs website at:

> http://ksvaughan2.byregion.net/

> And my website at Avon Walk for Breast Cancer 2005

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

______________________________\

____

 

Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta.

http://new.mail.

[Guest guest]

A " family style " Vietnamese man that I have worked with describes about 40-50%

of the people he works with as requiring some treatment in regards to external

spiritual entities. Some of this is done herbally and some spiritually through

meditation, etc. I think there are models for this in older TCM lit, and

certainly in popular spirituality in China (mostly Daoism, but I believe

Buddhists also practice exorcism as part of their jobs).

 

Jack, do you have a copy of that artcle in Chinese in an easily sendable format?

If not, where are you publishing it? I'd love to hear more about it.

 

Par Scott, MAOM, Lic Ac

19 Belmont St

Cambridge MA 02138

617 499 2957

 

 

 

-

Jack Sweeney

Friday, December 01, 2006 12:54 AM

Re: External Pernicious Psycho/spiritual Evils

 

 

Karen:

 

Yes, I'm translating an article about Tang Dynasty

ghosts that were thought to bring on disease,

particularly on certain days of the traditional lunar

calendar. Hope to publish this next month.

 

Regards, Jack

 

--- Karen Vaughan <creationsgarden1 wrote:

 

> Al's description of gu as being a combination of

> parasite and curse

> reminds me of a concept I have found in say Italian

> or Mayan traditional

> medicine, where there are external pernicious evils

> of a

> psycho/spiritual nature, resulting in the diseases

> Envidio (envy) and

> Susto (fright) caused by jealous or malevolent

> outsiders. They seem to

> be basically shen disturbances and in Mayan medicine

> at least have their

> own pulse signs. What distinguishes them is that

> they are sent

> externally by others. Clearly they are not part of

> scientized TCM.

>

> Has anyone heard of similar concepts either in old

> literature or through

> family traditions or offshore Chinese medicine?

>

> --

> Karen Vaughan, MSTOM

> Licensed Acupuncturist, and Herbalist

> 253 Garfield Place

> Brooklyn, NY 11215

>

> (718) 622-6755

>

> Co-Conspirator to Make the World A Better Place:

> Visit http://www.heroicstories.com/ and join the

> conspiracy

> See my Acupuncture and Herbs website at:

> http://ksvaughan2.byregion.net/

> And my website at Avon Walk for Breast Cancer 2005

>

>

>

>

 

________

Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail beta.

http://new.mail.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Karen Vaughan

<creationsgarden1 wrote:

>

> Al's description of gu as being a combination of parasite and curse

> reminds me of a concept I have found in say Italian or Mayan

traditional

> medicine, where there are external pernicious evils of a

> psycho/spiritual nature, resulting in the diseases Envidio (envy) and

> Susto (fright) caused by jealous or malevolent outsiders. They seem to

> be basically shen disturbances and in Mayan medicine at least have

their

> own pulse signs. What distinguishes them is that they are sent

> externally by others. Clearly they are not part of scientized TCM.

>

> Has anyone heard of similar concepts either in old literature or

through

> family traditions or offshore Chinese medicine?

>

> --

> Karen Vaughan, MSTOM

 

Karen,

one of my teachers (Bruno Braeckman)regards certain emotions as a form

of xie qi. He has found that often they can be felt on the pulse on

the most superficial layer, barely touching the skin. I have verified

this in my own clinic: feelings of, say, anger or frustration can

sometimes be felt on the Liver pulse just under the skin. One can feel

a very thin pulse in the top layer of the skin, that disappears when

you press harder.

The idea behind this is the old Chinese idea that spirits are actually

constantly visiting us ( " shen " is actually a plural word) and that

emotions are just a form of Qi, constantly changing, and with the

possibility to become xie/perverse.

These emotional disturbances can be treated with a shu/luo technique

on the affected channel, with thin needles and superficial insertion.

Often the superficial pulse will then have disappeared upon palpation.

This works even with deeper physical problems i.e. shoulder pain that

is released by this superficial shu-luo technique on a channel that

originally was only affected by an " emotional blockage " .

It is also possible that these emotions are " sent " by other people,

just like you can feel someone's hate, grief or arrogance, and can be

affected by them.

Some books by Larre & Rochat de la Vallée have references to this.

 

 

regards,

 

Tom.

[Guest guest]

On 12/1/06, Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote:

 

> It is also possible that these emotions are " sent " by other people,

> just like you can feel someone's hate, grief or arrogance, and can be

> affected by them.

>

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder about this.

 

There's a difference between empathy, or sensing the emotions of another and

acting accordingly, versus reacting to someone else's mood.

 

I believe that the latter is not really receiving anothers' emotions " sent "

to you, but reacting from your own stuff with someone else providing the

trigger. It's still your button, in which case the problem is internal, not

external in my opinion. Of course these ineffible things are hard to prove

either way, I just hate to see people not taking responsibility for their

stuff.

 

I am however intrigued by the " thin superficial layer " in the pulse

suggesting a spirit/emotion. Got any examples of the various shen?

 

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The aboriginal tribes around where I gew up have the concept of evil

being done by malicious thoughts sent from people or spirits.

People can send illness by " pointing the bone " and other forms of

sympathetic magic. I dont know how much of this relies upon the

recipient actualling knowing that it has occured and thus sickening

through their belief in the process, but I know of people who have seen

the sickness in the recipient and seen the medicine man heal them

by " drawing out the bone " .

Interestingly enough, I had a conversation with one of the elders about

local spirits. There is a bush spirit called " Gwaji man " or " hairy man "

and many people I know have actually seen him in the deep

rainforests. (The most unlikely people too, old timber cutters who

havent had an esoteric thought in their lives swear blacks blue they've

seen hairy man.) The thinking is that hairy man is another type of

animal, a live being. He'll cause you trouble, but not of a spiritual

nature. However, there are also " Quinkan " spirits which are elemental

type beings. (Some live in cracks in the rocks, another one bounces

around the landscape on a hugely enlarged phallus.) And these can

cause evil to humans. (The well endowed ones are particularly

malicious.) I was told by this elder that " If you good man like me, they

try and get you, and you get sick. Doctor cant tell you whats wrong, but

you get sick and die. " When I asked if there was anything that can be

done, he told me there were still elders who knew what to do, but didnt

go into specifics of the treatment or diagnosis. When I asked him

whether human spirits could cause trouble (because I lived near one of

the old burial grounds) he said " nah, they're just curious and wanna see

what you fella up to. "

Some aboriginal medicine/ spirit men have described that there are a

system of lines of light in the body, like " strings " that go through the

person, and when there is ill-health they draw blood from places on

the " strings " where they can see stagnation to balance the body. This

reminded me instantly of the meridian system.

Sorry about the rambling post.

regards,

Lea.

, " Al Stone " <al

wrote:

>

> On 12/1/06, Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote:

>

> > It is also possible that these emotions are " sent " by other people,

> > just like you can feel someone's hate, grief or arrogance, and can

be

> > affected by them.

> I wonder about this.

>

> There's a difference between empathy, or sensing the emotions of

another and

> acting accordingly, versus reacting to someone else's mood.

>

> I believe that the latter is not really receiving anothers'

emotions " sent "

> to you, but reacting from your own stuff with someone else providing

the

> trigger. It's still your button, in which case the problem is internal, not

> external in my opinion. Of course these ineffible things are hard to

prove

> either way, I just hate to see people not taking responsibility for their

> stuff.

>

> I am however intrigued by the " thin superficial layer " in the pulse

> suggesting a spirit/emotion. Got any examples of the various shen?

>

>

> --

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Par:

 

The article is not yet ready but is in electronic

format, will let you know when.

 

Regards, Jack

 

--- Par Scott <parufus wrote:

 

> A " family style " Vietnamese man that I have worked

> with describes about 40-50% of the people he works

> with as requiring some treatment in regards to

> external spiritual entities. Some of this is done

> herbally and some spiritually through meditation,

> etc. I think there are models for this in older TCM

> lit, and certainly in popular spirituality in China

> (mostly Daoism, but I believe Buddhists also

> practice exorcism as part of their jobs).

>

> Jack, do you have a copy of that artcle in Chinese

> in an easily sendable format? If not, where are you

> publishing it? I'd love to hear more about it.

>

> Par Scott, MAOM, Lic Ac

> 19 Belmont St

> Cambridge MA 02138

> 617 499 2957

>

>

>

> -

> Jack Sweeney

>

> Friday, December 01, 2006 12:54 AM

> Re: External Pernicious

> Psycho/spiritual Evils

>

>

> Karen:

>

> Yes, I'm translating an article about Tang Dynasty

> ghosts that were thought to bring on disease,

> particularly on certain days of the traditional

> lunar

> calendar. Hope to publish this next month.

>

> Regards, Jack

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Al,

 

I agree that qi qing and ben shen are notions that can be hard to

describe, but nonetheless are very meaningful since many of our

patients have emotional/ spiritual issues.

 

I believe that we have to clearly differentiate between the qi qing

(the seven affects) and the ben shen (five original shen).

The qi qing are based upon the wu zhi, and are related to the 5

phases. The wu zhi are xi (joy- excessive joy), nu (anger or

irritation), si (0ver-thinking), you (anxiety, esp for what the future

brings), and kong (fear). Later, bei (sorrow) and jing (shock) were

added, probably for better clinical differentiation.

The qi qing are reflected in the pulse, more specifially using the nan

jing pulse system (with PC and TE in the right chi position), and can

be treated by a superficial shu-luo technique on the affected

meridian. If you can feel a very thin and superficial pulse on any

given pulse position, you can start asking about the specific emotion

that goes with the pulse position e.g. a superficial pulse on the

Liver position is a strong indicator that the patient's nu has become

excessive and has damaged the Qi flow in the Liver channel.

The qi qing affect the channels' wei qi and ying qi just like a

regular xie qi would. It doesn't matter where the emotional xie qi

came from: if it is in the channel, it's there and should be treated

by any means.

 

The ben shen are related to what my teacher Bruno Braeckman calls the

" 4+1 phases " . They are the five phases but with the earth phase in the

middle, and the other phases evolving around the center. Ben shen

pathologies are more serious and are related to the zang with which

they are coupled. A vacuous or replete organ carries with it

disturbances in the ben shen (as mentioned in the ling shu, chapter

8). Ben shen pathologies indicate pathology of the jing(essence) of

the zang. They are harder to treat- my teacher uses a superficial

technique on the second bladder channel: no matter what zang is

affected, always needle BL23 + BL52 first, and then add BL 42, 44, 47

or 49 as needed). Again with very thin needles and a superficial

techniques. Ben shen pathologies need more time to improve; the

patient's consciousness needs to see things differently and needs time

adjusting. Besides the acupuncture treatment meditation or change in

diet (with attention to nourishing jing), a different lifestyle or

different hobbies may be necessary. Some hobbies or lifestyles only

serve to keep an emotional/ spiritual disbalance in place. Of course

not every patient wants to hear about this, I only talk to patients

about this when I think they are open to it.

 

Phew, that took me a while to write in English.

 

One more thing: differentiation between qi qing/ ben shen pathology is

not always that easy upon enquiry/ observation. My teacher recommends

pulse diagnosis to evaluate the qi qing (and wei qi/ ying qi) and

abdominal palpation to evaluate the ben shen (and jing of the zang).

Earth phase: on the navel, Water under the navel, Wood to the

patient's left of the navel,Metal to the patient's right of his navel

and Fire above the navel.

 

Regards,

 

Tom.

, " Al Stone " <al wrote:

>

> On 12/1/06, Tom Verhaeghe <tom.verhaeghe wrote:

>

> > It is also possible that these emotions are " sent " by other people,

> > just like you can feel someone's hate, grief or arrogance, and can be

> > affected by them.

> >

 

>

> I wonder about this.

>

> There's a difference between empathy, or sensing the emotions of

another and

> acting accordingly, versus reacting to someone else's mood.

>

> I believe that the latter is not really receiving anothers' emotions

" sent "

> to you, but reacting from your own stuff with someone else providing the

> trigger. It's still your button, in which case the problem is

internal, not

> external in my opinion. Of course these ineffible things are hard to

prove

> either way, I just hate to see people not taking responsibility for

their

> stuff.

>

> I am however intrigued by the " thin superficial layer " in the pulse

> suggesting a spirit/emotion. Got any examples of the various shen?

>

[Guest guest]

I assume you finished the article at some point?

-

Jack Sweeney

Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:42 PM

Re: External Pernicious Psycho/spiritual Evils

 

 

Par:

 

The article is not yet ready but is in electronic

format, will let you know when.

 

Regards, Jack

 

--- Par Scott <parufus wrote:

 

> A " family style " Vietnamese man that I have worked

> with describes about 40-50% of the people he works

> with as requiring some treatment in regards to

> external spiritual entities. Some of this is done

> herbally and some spiritually through meditation,

> etc. I think there are models for this in older TCM

> lit, and certainly in popular spirituality in China

> (mostly Daoism, but I believe Buddhists also

> practice exorcism as part of their jobs).

>

> Jack, do you have a copy of that artcle in Chinese

> in an easily sendable format? If not, where are you

> publishing it? I'd love to hear more about it.

>

> Par Scott, MAOM, Lic Ac

> 19 Belmont St

> Cambridge MA 02138

> 617 499 2957

>

>

>

> -

> Jack Sweeney

>

> Friday, December 01, 2006 12:54 AM

> Re: External Pernicious

> Psycho/spiritual Evils

>

>

> Karen:

>

> Yes, I'm translating an article about Tang Dynasty

> ghosts that were thought to bring on disease,

> particularly on certain days of the traditional

> lunar

> calendar. Hope to publish this next month.

>

> Regards, Jack

>