Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

[Guest guest]

Well said. Threatening students, calling the FBI, pressuring schools to

expel students, forcing them to haul around 30 pounds of books-- none of

these will help create an atmosphere to learn healing. A heartfelt statement

prepared by publishers and authors should be posted in all the schools. Many

young students don't even know that this sort of thing is wrong. We're

educators; let's educate, not threaten.

 

On the other hand, if there is evidence that certain people or schools are

creating these DVDs, they should be warned of the legal consequences.

 

I'm speaking from the perspective of an author and the owner of thousands of

dollars worth of books. I completely agree with the anger and frustration of

the publishers; I just disagree with the best way to deal with it.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

.............................................

Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

P.O. Box 8099

Santa Cruz, CA 95061

 

office phone: 831-335-3165

email: plantmed

.............................................

 

 

>>>>>>Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy is not occurring in a vacuum. It is

happening within a context of piracy of music, movies, and other types

of audio and visual media.

 

There will be no stopping of this piracy no matter how many people get

busted. The recording and movie industries have battled against this

for years and they are much better funded than CM publisher will ever be.

 

To wag accusing fingers and talk of moral turpitude is to ignore what

is happening around us. I treasure each person that I meet that has

an integrity that I can trust.

 

All those working parents just did not/do not have time to teach their

children about work, integrity etc. Now those children have grown up

and go to schools of higher education.

 

 

Demanding student to bring their books to class is likely to only

anger them thoroughly.

 

Asking the FBI to investigate will probably bring no more that

rudimentary actions unless you give them names and addresses. They

have a pretty extensive " to do list " these days.

 

Explaining to students how much effort and time goes into creating

books will have a greater effect than any punitive measures.

 

Figuring out value added services for book purchasers will be a

possible way out of this dilemna. For example, buy this book and you

can search through it online with your personal passcode or you can

join a discussion list with others who are studying the book.

 

In the long run, I think that exposure to books through computer

screens will lead to greater sales of the truly useful and unique

books. Nothing can ruin one's concentration more effectively than

reading extended material on a computer screen. I will only look at a

book on a computer screen long enough to determine if it is worth buying.

 

I want to thank all the writers and publishers for the many fine book

published (I will ignore the many not so fine ones). And I am happy to

have many of them in the clinic library so I can refer to them often.

 

I also want to say that I am very sorry that you are going through a

difficult period where you will not receive all the rewards for your

hard work that are due. I hope that once the anger is over that

creative solutions will be discovered so we can all move forward.

 

I also want to thank Jason for asking difficult questions and making

some valuable points about the numbers being used.

 

Thank you,

 

Duncan Echelson

Austin, TX

>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bill,

If students show up with their textbooks even once to class, it

means that they've acquired them. If schools require prepayment for

texts as part of tuition, they'll buy them.

 

It is nice to create a healing atmosphere, but if our main

publishers and distributors go out of business, if writers editors

and translators cannot make a living, if new texts are not released,

our profession will fall like a stack of cards in a breeze.

 

 

On Dec 17, 2006, at 12:24 PM, Bill Schoenbart wrote:

 

> Well said. Threatening students, calling the FBI, pressuring

> schools to

> expel students, forcing them to haul around 30 pounds of books--

> none of

> these will help create an atmosphere to learn healing. A heartfelt

> statement

> prepared by publishers and authors should be posted in all the

> schools. Many

> young students don't even know that this sort of thing is wrong. We're

> educators; let's educate, not threaten.

>

> On the other hand, if there is evidence that certain people or

> schools are

> creating these DVDs, they should be warned of the legal consequences.

>

> I'm speaking from the perspective of an author and the owner of

> thousands of

> dollars worth of books. I completely agree with the anger and

> frustration of

> the publishers; I just disagree with the best way to deal with it.

>

> - Bill Schoenbart

> ............................................

> Bill Schoenbart, L.Ac.

> P.O. Box 8099

> Santa Cruz, CA 95061

>

> office phone: 831-335-3165

> email: plantmed

> ............................................

>

> >>>>>>Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy is not occurring in a vacuum.

> It is

> happening within a context of piracy of music, movies, and other types

> of audio and visual media.

>

> There will be no stopping of this piracy no matter how many people get

> busted. The recording and movie industries have battled against this

> for years and they are much better funded than CM publisher will

> ever be.

>

> To wag accusing fingers and talk of moral turpitude is to ignore what

> is happening around us. I treasure each person that I meet that has

> an integrity that I can trust.

>

> All those working parents just did not/do not have time to teach their

> children about work, integrity etc. Now those children have grown up

> and go to schools of higher education.

>

> Demanding student to bring their books to class is likely to only

> anger them thoroughly.

>

> Asking the FBI to investigate will probably bring no more that

> rudimentary actions unless you give them names and addresses. They

> have a pretty extensive " to do list " these days.

>

> Explaining to students how much effort and time goes into creating

> books will have a greater effect than any punitive measures.

>

> Figuring out value added services for book purchasers will be a

> possible way out of this dilemna. For example, buy this book and you

> can search through it online with your personal passcode or you can

> join a discussion list with others who are studying the book.

>

> In the long run, I think that exposure to books through computer

> screens will lead to greater sales of the truly useful and unique

> books. Nothing can ruin one's concentration more effectively than

> reading extended material on a computer screen. I will only look at a

> book on a computer screen long enough to determine if it is worth

> buying.

>

> I want to thank all the writers and publishers for the many fine book

> published (I will ignore the many not so fine ones). And I am happy to

> have many of them in the clinic library so I can refer to them often.

>

> I also want to say that I am very sorry that you are going through a

> difficult period where you will not receive all the rewards for your

> hard work that are due. I hope that once the anger is over that

> creative solutions will be discovered so we can all move forward.

>

> I also want to thank Jason for asking difficult questions and making

> some valuable points about the numbers being used.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Duncan Echelson

> Austin, TX

> >>>>>>>>>>>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

Some additional thoughts. Just to be fair to Todd's argument, I

assume you've been in the field for a long time like myself. The

greatly increased cost of CM education, plus the pressure to pay back

student loans, adds an additional burden to new practitioners. Also,

teachers, authors and translators are still grossly underpaid. The

schools will need to grasp economic reality, which means to pay

teachers more, and refine the programs. In my opinion, this largely

means students should get their biomedical credits as a prerequisite

to CM schools at community colleges, or that the biomedical

departments should be refined to provide essential courses for CM

practitioners. I am hoping that Bruce Robinson's book, published by

Blue Poppy, will help define reasonable programs in biomedicine for

Chinese medicine practitioners.

 

Having said that, nothing can stop a person with enthusiasm,

perseverance, and as Sitting Bull said, " planting one's spear in the

ground and refusing to move " .

 

 

On Dec 15, 2006, at 6:48 PM, fbernall wrote:

 

> , wrote:

> > For those of you who have done much better through either luck, sa

> > vvy, or deception, good for you. But don't deceive yourselves. You

> are > a minority in the field.

>

> I have delivered pizza, done web design and development, carpentry,

> taught tai chi and a number of other odd jobs in order to keep

> practicing. All the while supporting a family. Today, I have a

> reasonably good practice. But it did not come about from " luck, savy,

> or deception " . It came about from perseverance, staying in one town

> long enough to be recognized for what I am and do, and from a genuine

> desire to help others.

>

> Fernando

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Although I haven't seen any mass copying in the UK, it's quite common

in Asian countries such as China and Korea. I knew of many western

students studying in China that took advantage of the ability to copy

a book and shrink it down in size so it could fit in your white

jacket pocket. I don't think it was a question of cost as books in

China are cheap. I picked up Wiseman's dictionary for very little. It

was a question of practically. You can even go to a photocopy shop

and have large sections of Chinese books typed out into a Word

document for minimal charge.

 

Attilio

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

>

>

> " It is pretty mind-boggling that someone went to the trouble to

pirate

> so many books. "

>

> I appears the guilty party hired an off-shore company (e.g., in

India)

> to do all the scanning.

>

> " 1. End-users of the material are complicit in the piracy, Just as

> individual users of file-sharing programs were subject to lawsuits

by

> the the record companies, students and practitioners who are in

> possession of this disk may find themselves in some seriously hot

water. "

>

> COMP is asking that schools expel such students. However,

> realistically, I doubt they will. I favor some kind of amnesty

program

> that, if students turn in their pirated CDs, we won't take legal

> action against them.

>

> " 2. The larger issue is an overarching one. The era of print is

> almost over. "

>

> I'm not sure I agree with you on this. The codex is one of the most

> user-friendly technologies ever developed. I don't think the codex

is

> going to disappear any time soon. "

>

> " A couple years ago, I began to try and impress on potential authors

> that the market for anything they wrote was quite small and it was

> unlikely that they would ever see a return on their efforts unless

> their books became required texts for schools. Even then, it is

> speaking fees and workshops where the real money lies for most

writers. "

>

> Here I completely agree, unless you have a very large base for

> residuals (i.e., royalties) such as I do. Writing books is the main

> way to become an " expert " who then is paid for that expertise by

> teaching and other such gigs.

>

> " People need to come to terms with new models of distribution that

> generate revenues from web-based advertising rather than sales of

hard

> copy materials. "

>

> I also agree with this. In 2007, Blue Poppy will institute a new,

FREE

> Web-based model of distrubting information to the profession.

>

> " 3. It is entirely understandable that students would opt to pirate

> their texts rather than pay for them. The cost of acupuncture school

> is obscene relative to the lifetime earning potential of graduates. "

>

> I agree that the cost of acupuncture school has gotten very high

> relative to what most acupuncturists earn. But this is no excuse for

> illegal activities which directly hurt other people. This is not a

> victimless crime. People have already lost jobs that fed their

> families because of this. Last night we had our Blue Poppy Xmas

party

> (movie and a dinner). Every employee there and many of their

> spouses/significant others said how happy they were working for us

A)

> because of how great a working envirnoment we provide and B) because

> of our generosity as employers. There were more than 20 people

around

> the table in some way dependent on the success of our business.

>

> In any case, we don't need to bash the schools here over their high

> tuitions. They are also using a business model which no longer

really

> works in terms of the bigger picture. They are caught in a bind as

> much as everyone else involved in our profession. Tuition-based

> medical education just doesn't work. This has already been proven.

> Unfortunately, none of us has come up with a different, more

workable

> model for our profession.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

 

I agree that CM education has increased and the return on the

investment is nowhere as to that of other professions.

 

I wonder what the current average age and marital status for most CM

students is today..

 

When I went to school, most of my classmates had families to support

and that obligation continued after graduation with the added expense

of starting a practice. So, although the expenses were lower, so were

the wages and the demand for our services.

 

Most of my classmates are not longer in the 'profession'. Many of them

had joined our TCM school as a change in 'careers'. Is this a good

reason to study CM? Is that what CM practice is? A career? As a group,

there's such an eagerness to be considered 'professionals'. No wonder

there's piracy. All profession have been tainted with corrupt behavior

and as long as we think of what we do strictly as a 'profession',

we'll be subjet to the same evils that have befallen on other fields.

 

I started in 1988 in Chicago practicing Shiatsu. Today,I'm still

romancing our medicine. It is part of who I am and an extension of the

civil aspect of the martial arts I practice... If I thought of it as a

career, I would'be dropped it long ago.

 

Fernando

 

 

>

> Having said that, nothing can stop a person with enthusiasm,

> perseverance, and as Sitting Bull said, " planting one's spear in the

> ground and refusing to move " .

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Fernando

 

I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K, none of which

I have ever been able to pay back. It has now capitalized to over 200K and my

life is pretty much finanically ruined as a result. It doesn't feel very

romantic to me at all. It feels more like domestic abuse.

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" fbernall " <fbernall

> Z'ev,

>

> I agree that CM education has increased and the return on the

> investment is nowhere as to that of other professions.

>

> I wonder what the current average age and marital status for most CM

> students is today..

>

> When I went to school, most of my classmates had families to support

> and that obligation continued after graduation with the added expense

> of starting a practice. So, although the expenses were lower, so were

> the wages and the demand for our services.

>

> Most of my classmates are not longer in the 'profession'. Many of them

> had joined our TCM school as a change in 'careers'. Is this a good

> reason to study CM? Is that what CM practice is? A career? As a group,

> there's such an eagerness to be considered 'professionals'. No wonder

> there's piracy. All profession have been tainted with corrupt behavior

> and as long as we think of what we do strictly as a 'profession',

> we'll be subjet to the same evils that have befallen on other fields.

>

> I started in 1988 in Chicago practicing Shiatsu. Today,I'm still

> romancing our medicine. It is part of who I am and an extension of the

> civil aspect of the martial arts I practice... If I thought of it as a

> career, I would'be dropped it long ago.

>

> Fernando

>

>

> >

> > Having said that, nothing can stop a person with enthusiasm,

> > perseverance, and as Sitting Bull said, " planting one's spear in the

> > ground and refusing to move " .

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bob

 

I know the schools don't make a large ROI either. I was not suggesting they are

getting rich at everyone else's expense. Just that its not worth it to get the

degree anymore. I know folks who went to OCOM for 10K total and graduated in

1990. They are doing just fine. They might not make a lot, but it didn't cost

them much either and had no long term effect on their financial health. I know

you have predicted the demise of the " mom and pop " schools for a long time as

inevitable due to the economics of the situation. It will be true someday, but

in the mean time, students are still be milked while the ship goes down. In

addition, I am not sure that it would be any cheaper to study TCM as part of a

larger institution. Does anyone know what it costs to go to the handful of

schools that have developed along this model. I think its roughly the same.

Because so much expense has been layered on to the educational process over the

years, it is now just a bad investment any way you slice it.

If TCM survives a style of medicine in the Us in the long run, I think it will

be only as part of another medical profession. Like MDs who want to specialize

in it.

 

 

 

> >

> > In any case, we don't need to bash the schools here over their high

> > tuitions. They are also using a business model which no longer

> really

> > works in terms of the bigger picture. They are caught in a bind as

> > much as everyone else involved in our profession. Tuition-based

> > medical education just doesn't work. This has already been proven.

> > Unfortunately, none of us has come up with a different, more

> workable

> > model for our profession.

> >

> > Bob

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Do you think this is a desirable possible outcome?

 

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 10:52 AM, wrote:

 

> If TCM survives a style of medicine in the Us in the long run, I

> think it will be only as part of another medical profession. Like

> MDs who want to specialize in it.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

I understand how you feel about this, i.e. ripped off, but it does

color your perceptions of the field at large.

 

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 10:40 AM, wrote:

 

> Fernando

>

> I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K,

> none of which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now

> capitalized to over 200K and my life is pretty much finanically

> ruined as a result. It doesn't feel very romantic to me at all. It

> feels more like domestic abuse.

>

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Todd;

Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not hundreds of

acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we are getting

expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our expanding number of

practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where it is

popular to live, aka where the colleges are.

David Molony

 

 

In a message dated 12/18/06 2:11:07 PM, writes:

 

 

> Fernando

>

> I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K, none of

> which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now capitalized to over 200K

> and my life is pretty much finanically ruined as a result. It doesn't feel

very

> romantic to me at all. It feels more like domestic abuse.

>

 

>

 

 

 

 

 

" No one wants advice- only corroboration. "

John Steinbeck

 

David Molony

101 Bridge Street

Catasauqua, PA 18032

Phone (610)264-2755

Fax (610) 264-7292

 

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your system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

I'm sorry for your experience so far.. My current bill is being

handled by the US. Dept. of Ed., through a program that puts my

current $75K bill on hold with interests adding monthly.. I will be

done paying by the age of 75, another 23 years of my life paying the

bill back.

 

A while back I was working 3 days a week, 3 hours a day and making

over $75K in Delaware working with an MD.. I got tired of the fast

food style of practicing in an MD's office and move to Asheville, NC,

believing that the job offer I had, was going to pay me around the

same even thought I had to work longer hours.. That didn't matter..It

all turned out to be bullshit and my credit and my wife's went down to

the drain.

 

I'm still recuperating from all that lost and our credit is gradually

improving. I make fewer trips to pawn my sax.

 

I continue to practice because to me this is a calling. I now live in

a city I like and plan on staying here. This should make a difference

in the long run..

 

There have been times I've felt bitter. Bitter towards the profession,

the patients and in some cases towards my collegues. In the long run

it just hurts my health and as I'm on my 50's, I can't afford that..

 

Good luck and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

 

Fernando

 

 

 

 

, wrote:

>

> Fernando

>

> I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K,

none of which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now

capitalized to over 200K and my life is pretty much finanically ruined

as a result. It doesn't feel very romantic to me at all. It feels more

like domestic abuse.

>

 

[Guest guest]

David makes a good point. It has been relatively easy to be successful in PA

because up until this year there was no school, thus, relatively few

acupuncturists. Our area is not yet saturated with practitioners.

 

San Diego is an example of an overly saturated area.

 

Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H.

President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program

Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts

215-438-2977

Fax 215-849-3338

 

 

 

 

<acuman1

 

Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:32:58 -0500 (EST)

 

Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

 

 

 

 

;

Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not hundreds of

acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we are

getting

expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our expanding

number of

practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where it is

popular to live, aka where the colleges are.

David Molony

 

In a message dated 12/18/06 2:11:07 PM,

<%40comcast.net> writes:

 

> Fernando

>

> I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K, none of

> which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now capitalized to over 200K

> and my life is pretty much finanically ruined as a result. It doesn't feel

very

> romantic to me at all. It feels more like domestic abuse.

>

 

>

 

" No one wants advice- only corroboration. "

John Steinbeck

 

David Molony

101 Bridge Street

Catasauqua, PA 18032

Phone (610)264-2755

Fax (610) 264-7292

 

**********Confidentiality Notice    **********

This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other

writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended

recipient(s) identified above.  This message may contain information

that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure

under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU Safe

Harbor Principles.  If you are the intended recipient, you are

responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data

integrity and security.  If the receiver of this information is not the

intended

recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for

delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby

notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or

storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have

received this information in error, please notify the sender by return

email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments from

your system.

 

 

[Guest guest]

David

 

I recall years ago, you offered me an opportunity to get on board a

plan to work in a system of alt. med run by an insurance company. It

was going to pay like 50K a year. That was somewhere out in the

middle of PA. It was also no more than I was making at PCOM. No

doubt,the COL would have been much lower than in CA, and I could have

gotten by, but its not really the point. I like to live where the sun

shines and the weather is warm year round. It doesn't matter to me if

a school is there or not. I am not willing to live somewhere

distasteful in order to make a decent living. A doctor can live where

he pleases because they have an infrastructure to support them. Your

solution is just more of the entrepreneurial approach. I always told

my students that if they were willing to live in small town in the

middle of nowhere, they could do quite well. Personally, I'd rather

die. So the solution you suggest does work for those who are amenable

to it. I am not one of those people and thus have moved on. I hope

someday to be back in the field of healthcare education and maybe

even alt. med., but I am pretty sure it will be at a mainstream med

or nursing school, not something strictly in the field of TCM.

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 7:32 PM, acuman1 wrote:

 

;

> Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not

> hundreds of

> acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we

> are getting

> expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our

> expanding number of

> practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where

> it is

> popular to live, aka where the colleges are.

> David Molony

>

> In a message dated 12/18/06 2:11:07 PM, writes:

>

> > Fernando

> >

> > I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K,

> none of

> > which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now capitalized

> to over 200K

> > and my life is pretty much finanically ruined as a result. It

> doesn't feel very

> > romantic to me at all. It feels more like domestic abuse.

> >

>

> >

>

> " No one wants advice- only corroboration. "

> John Steinbeck

>

> David Molony

> 101 Bridge Street

> Catasauqua, PA 18032

> Phone (610)264-2755

> Fax (610) 264-7292

>

> **********Confidentiality Notice **********

> This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other

> writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended

> recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information

> that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from

> disclosure

> under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU

> Safe

> Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are

> responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data

> integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not

> the intended

> recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for

> delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby

> notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution,

> copying or

> storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have

> received this information in error, please notify the sender by return

> email and delete the electronic transmission, including all

> attachments from

> your system.

>

>

[Guest guest]

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Please try

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