is it financially feasible to study and practice Chinese medicine?

[Guest guest]

Dear Fernando, Z'ev, Bob, et al,

 

With all due respect, (and I truly mean it--your education and experience have

raised the bar of our profession significantly, and have set in motion the call

for higher standards yet), I think that the profession has been remiss for not

putting pressure upon the admissions and guidance departments of our schools,

to better counsel prospective students, bring existing students down to earth to

know what to expect after school is over, let them know ahead of time what

they are getting themselves into, what they will have to be paying back each

month and for how long. I also don't think nearly enough is done with alumni

connecting more solidly with their alma maters, in terms of mentoring and

raising scholarships. Scholarships for Chinese medical schools are virtually

non-existent. I know my school doesn't have an alumni association, though my

undergraduate college is constantly involved in fund raising activities,

coordinated with the school itself. I personally

lucked out when I began in 2000 (not that I would recommend this as a strategy

for paying for school!): Shortly before I started school, my wife and I were

involved in a head-on collision. Our car was totaled, but we were fine.

Essentially the settlement from the accident paid for my last 3 years of school.

I'll be paying the loan on that first year of school for another 5 years or so,

but that's it. I don't think that it's an exaggeration that one can make a good

living doing our medicine, but it takes creativity, good people skills and

salesmanship. Yes, we do have to sell ourselves, and that means finding a

specialty, niche, or market, properly preparing ourselves to know what to

answer, and when we do to answer with knowledge and confidence.

 

Is it our responsibility to do everything we can to build our profession, from

the ground up? I think so. And responsibility begins with our schools and

ourselves. Dynamically interacting is the best prescription for not just

raising the standard but even surviving.

 

Yehuda

fbernall <fbernall wrote:

 

I'm sorry for your experience so far.. My current bill is being

handled by the US. Dept. of Ed., through a program that puts my

current $75K bill on hold with interests adding monthly.. I will be

done paying by the age of 75, another 23 years of my life paying the

bill back.

 

A while back I was working 3 days a week, 3 hours a day and making

over $75K in Delaware working with an MD.. I got tired of the fast

food style of practicing in an MD's office and move to Asheville, NC,

believing that the job offer I had, was going to pay me around the

same even thought I had to work longer hours.. That didn't matter..It

all turned out to be bullshit and my credit and my wife's went down to

the drain.

 

I'm still recuperating from all that lost and our credit is gradually

improving. I make fewer trips to pawn my sax.

 

I continue to practice because to me this is a calling. I now live in

a city I like and plan on staying here. This should make a difference

in the long run..

 

There have been times I've felt bitter. Bitter towards the profession,

the patients and in some cases towards my collegues. In the long run

it just hurts my health and as I'm on my 50's, I can't afford that..

 

Good luck and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

 

Fernando

 

, wrote:

>

> Fernando

>

> I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K,

none of which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now

capitalized to over 200K and my life is pretty much finanically ruined

as a result. It doesn't feel very romantic to me at all. It feels more

like domestic abuse.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

 

I agree.

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

 

> Dear Fernando, Z'ev, Bob, et al,

>

> With all due respect, (and I truly mean it--your education and experience

have

> raised the bar of our profession significantly, and have set in motion the

call

> for higher standards yet), I think that the profession has been remiss for not

> putting pressure upon the admissions and guidance departments of our

schools,

> to better counsel prospective students, bring existing students down to earth

to

> know what to expect after school is over, let them know ahead of time what

> they are getting themselves into, what they will have to be paying back each

> month and for how long. I also don't think nearly enough is done with alumni

> connecting more solidly with their alma maters, in terms of mentoring and

> raising scholarships. Scholarships for Chinese medical schools are virtually

> non-existent. I know my school doesn't have an alumni association, though my

> undergraduate college is constantly involved in fund raising activities,

> coordinated with the school itself. I personally

> lucked out when I began in 2000 (not that I would recommend this as a

strategy

> for paying for school!): Shortly before I started school, my wife and I were

> involved in a head-on collision. Our car was totaled, but we were fine.

> Essentially the settlement from the accident paid for my last 3 years of

school.

> I'll be paying the loan on that first year of school for another 5 years or

so,

> but that's it. I don't think that it's an exaggeration that one can make a

good

> living doing our medicine, but it takes creativity, good people skills and

> salesmanship. Yes, we do have to sell ourselves, and that means finding a

> specialty, niche, or market, properly preparing ourselves to know what to

> answer, and when we do to answer with knowledge and confidence.

>

> Is it our responsibility to do everything we can to build our profession,

from

> the ground up? I think so. And responsibility begins with our schools and

> ourselves. Dynamically interacting is the best prescription for not just

> raising the standard but even surviving.

>

> Yehuda

> fbernall <fbernall wrote:

>

>

> I'm sorry for your experience so far.. My current bill is being

> handled by the US. Dept. of Ed., through a program that puts my

> current $75K bill on hold with interests adding monthly.. I will be

> done paying by the age of 75, another 23 years of my life paying the

> bill back.

>

> A while back I was working 3 days a week, 3 hours a day and making

> over $75K in Delaware working with an MD.. I got tired of the fast

> food style of practicing in an MD's office and move to Asheville, NC,

> believing that the job offer I had, was going to pay me around the

> same even thought I had to work longer hours.. That didn't matter..It

> all turned out to be bullshit and my credit and my wife's went down to

> the drain.

>

> I'm still recuperating from all that lost and our credit is gradually

> improving. I make fewer trips to pawn my sax.

>

> I continue to practice because to me this is a calling. I now live in

> a city I like and plan on staying here. This should make a difference

> in the long run..

>

> There have been times I've felt bitter. Bitter towards the profession,

> the patients and in some cases towards my collegues. In the long run

> it just hurts my health and as I'm on my 50's, I can't afford that..

>

> Good luck and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

>

> Fernando

>

> , wrote:

> >

> > Fernando

> >

> > I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K,

> none of which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now

> capitalized to over 200K and my life is pretty much finanically ruined

> as a result. It doesn't feel very romantic to me at all. It feels more

> like domestic abuse.

> >

>

 

> http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I also agree with you, Yehuda.

 

I think the schools will, sooner or later, have to respond to the

points you make about scholarship, mentoring, and helping students

find work after graduation, or there will be a backlash of some

kind. The tuition is unreasonable in proportion to the present

earning power of acupuncturists, even those who are motivated to

succeed despite the barriers.

 

However, there are also scenarios that were less problematic twenty

five to thirty years ago when some of us were being schooled. One of

which are the present-day, tremendous financial pressures on the

middle class in the U.S. My nephew, for example, took student loans

for a Ph.D. at a major university, and his salary as a professor is

not enough to support his family and pay back student loans. Other

professions have similar problems to ours, even some medical ones.

While M.D.'s and nurses have relatively more financial success, they

also have huge loans to pay, plus prohibitive insurance fees.

Finally, many of us who bought homes in the last five to ten years

have become mortgage slaves, as housing prices have soared. Leases

for clinic space have also soared as well.

 

In other words, unless you have family money or insurance resources,

it is much more difficult to make ends meet with a middle class

profession.

 

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Dear Fernando, Z'ev, Bob, et al,

>

> With all due respect, (and I truly mean it--your education and

> experience have raised the bar of our profession significantly, and

> have set in motion the call for higher standards yet), I think that

> the profession has been remiss for not putting pressure upon the

> admissions and guidance departments of our schools, to better

> counsel prospective students, bring existing students down to earth

> to know what to expect after school is over, let them know ahead of

> time what they are getting themselves into, what they will have to

> be paying back each month and for how long. I also don't think

> nearly enough is done with alumni connecting more solidly with

> their alma maters, in terms of mentoring and raising scholarships.

> Scholarships for Chinese medical schools are virtually non-

> existent. I know my school doesn't have an alumni association,

> though my undergraduate college is constantly involved in fund

> raising activities, coordinated with the school itself

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Just a point of focus to consider: Why aren't our organizations, state and

national using their muscle to address this issue? We hear about individual

lobbying efforts which certainly deserve our support, but why isn't this issue

front and center addressed by national organizations such as CCAOM, NCCAOM,

Alliance and ACAOM? Why is there such disconnectedness from the policies of the

schools we graduated from. Some say that the only agenda of the schools are

greed and that's why some are closing. But even the greediest fool wants to

remain viable financially. As the late California politician was noted for

saying, " Money is the mother's milk of politics. " Couldn't we have a greater

voice in actuating that viability?

 

Yehuda

<zrosenbe wrote:

I also agree with you, Yehuda.

 

I think the schools will, sooner or later, have to respond to the

points you make about scholarship, mentoring, and helping students

find work after graduation, or there will be a backlash of some

kind. The tuition is unreasonable in proportion to the present

earning power of acupuncturists, even those who are motivated to

succeed despite the barriers.

 

However, there are also scenarios that were less problematic twenty

five to thirty years ago when some of us were being schooled. One of

which are the present-day, tremendous financial pressures on the

middle class in the U.S. My nephew, for example, took student loans

for a Ph.D. at a major university, and his salary as a professor is

not enough to support his family and pay back student loans. Other

professions have similar problems to ours, even some medical ones.

While M.D.'s and nurses have relatively more financial success, they

also have huge loans to pay, plus prohibitive insurance fees.

Finally, many of us who bought homes in the last five to ten years

have become mortgage slaves, as housing prices have soared. Leases

for clinic space have also soared as well.

 

In other words, unless you have family money or insurance resources,

it is much more difficult to make ends meet with a middle class

profession.

 

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 2:31 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Dear Fernando, Z'ev, Bob, et al,

>

> With all due respect, (and I truly mean it--your education and

> experience have raised the bar of our profession significantly, and

> have set in motion the call for higher standards yet), I think that

> the profession has been remiss for not putting pressure upon the

> admissions and guidance departments of our schools, to better

> counsel prospective students, bring existing students down to earth

> to know what to expect after school is over, let them know ahead of

> time what they are getting themselves into, what they will have to

> be paying back each month and for how long. I also don't think

> nearly enough is done with alumni connecting more solidly with

> their alma maters, in terms of mentoring and raising scholarships.

> Scholarships for Chinese medical schools are virtually non-

> existent. I know my school doesn't have an alumni association,

> though my undergraduate college is constantly involved in fund

> raising activities, coordinated with the school itself

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda, Z'ev,

 

I think that in the long run our field will become subject to and

manipulated by those higher in the food chain. Employment for those of

us who graduated 10 to 15 years ago is next to none.. When was last

time anyone saw an employment ad for an acupuncturist?

 

New graduates are graduating with Master degrees. It was not the case

when I graduated.. Who is a hospital going to hire first? An old cat

like me with just a TCM diploma? Or a young graduate with a Master's

degree?

 

I can't see how a school is going to help graduates find employment

when jobs are not available.. You can often see ads for massage

therapists, physical therapists and other related fields but I've yet

to see an ad looking for an acupuncturist..

 

And if one mentors a new graduate, could that eventually be shooting

yourself on the foot? Or do you do the distateful, vulgar, non-compete

clause?

 

As Bob pointed out, time goes by very fast.

 

Fernando

 

 

, " "

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> I also agree with you, Yehuda.

>

> I think the schools will, sooner or later, have to respond to the

> points you make about scholarship, mentoring, and helping students

> find work after graduation, or there will be a backlash of some

> kind. The tuition is unreasonable in proportion to the present

> earning power of acupuncturists, even those who are motivated to

> succeed despite the barriers.

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

First up, I have seen ads for acupuncturists on the PCOM bulletin

board, as well in such publications as Acupuncture Today.

 

As far as the master's degree goes, I had to 'upgrade' to it

through Emperor's College 18-19 years ago when I moved to California,

and discovered at the time that California had no reciprocity with

Colorado and New Mexico for degrees or licensure. The move, plus

education, cost me in the realm of $50,000.00. Paying your dues,

definitely.

 

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 4:23 PM, fbernall wrote:

 

> Yehuda, Z'ev,

>

> I think that in the long run our field will become subject to and

> manipulated by those higher in the food chain. Employment for those of

> us who graduated 10 to 15 years ago is next to none.. When was last

> time anyone saw an employment ad for an acupuncturist?

>

> New graduates are graduating with Master degrees. It was not the case

> when I graduated.. Who is a hospital going to hire first? An old cat

> like me with just a TCM diploma? Or a young graduate with a Master's

> degree?

>

> I can't see how a school is going to help graduates find employment

> when jobs are not available.. You can often see ads for massage

> therapists, physical therapists and other related fields but I've yet

> to see an ad looking for an acupuncturist..

>

> And if one mentors a new graduate, could that eventually be shooting

> yourself on the foot? Or do you do the distateful, vulgar, non-compete

> clause?

>

> As Bob pointed out, time goes by very fast.

>

> Fernando

>

> , " "

> <zrosenbe wrote:

> >

> > I also agree with you, Yehuda.

> >

> > I think the schools will, sooner or later, have to respond to the

> > points you make about scholarship, mentoring, and helping students

> > find work after graduation, or there will be a backlash of some

> > kind. The tuition is unreasonable in proportion to the present

> > earning power of acupuncturists, even those who are motivated to

> > succeed despite the barriers.

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

 

Before I left PCOM, they had done a survey of their grads to find out

what they thought was lacking in their education and how they could

best serve alumni. the response was overwhelmingly centered on

business issues. The proposed solution was twofold. Improve training

in this area at school and beef up the support offered to alumni in

the form of regular free seminars. So PCOM clearly did not drop the

ball in this area. However, I doubt any amount of training in

business or tips for success really gets to the heart of the problem.

Most folks who choose to practice medicine are not bloodthirsty

capitalists. While we expect and need to be heavily compensated for

our investment and time, the mindset that is primarily focused on

things like caring for the sick and/or puzzling out their ailments is

often not found in the same person who knows how to promote

themselves and always watch the bottom line. We have the expression

that C students are often the most successful. It is quite true. Its

not a rule, but a fact that there are many savvy business people, who

while not being able to diagnose their way out out of a paper bag,

can still sell themselves to the public. Personally, I would get

physically ill working booths at health fairs or giving talks where I

had to purposely manipulate data to make TCM seem cost-effective for

all that ails a person or represent myself as far more experienced

than I actually was. I have hard seasoned successful practitioners

tell students that when asked by a patient how much experience they

have treating such and such a disease, they should basically lie in

order to secure the patient. This is an ethical breach of the highest

order, IMO.

 

You are completely correct that the only long term solutions involve

the development of scholarship funds, residencies, and an employment

infrastructure. Most MDs don't succeed because they are businessmen.

They succeed because they work in a system that provides them with

ample opportunity to make a living. Even back in the days of private

practice, most doctors did not depend on advertising to attract

patients. They built careers by going to good schools, training at

good hospitals, developing reputations amongst their peers, and

riding on the virtues of a well-established profession. Which doctors

do depend on advertising? Those who perform elective procedures like

plastic surgery and laser eye surgery. That is who the public

compares us to, not as actual physicians.

 

In addition, while medical research can be biased and their have been

plenty of scandals, the lack of any valid research being done in

america on TCM herbology means most folks who see an herbalist are

talking to a clerk at a health food store for free. The media gives

the public no reason to believe they should pay for our services.

There was recently the highest drop in breast cancer rates in modern

medical history. Why? Because women in large numbers, at the advice

of their doctors, based upon research that showed its

ineffectiveness, stopped taking HRT. Unless the current free market

approach to TCM is replaced by such a research-based infrastructure

that might actually challenge certain practices and validate others,

the public will continue to see us as a luxury one turns to when all

else fails. There may have been recent scandals over " approved " drugs

like vioxx, but it was also research that revealed the problem and

regulators who acted on it. All patients have from us is our slick

salesmanship. It is also misleading to read articles such as a recent

one in AT about the insurance industry's coverage of our services.

While it may be true that we have not been been a drain on their

industry, that is largely because reimbursement is still so minimal

and restricted. And that will not change as more and more payment

decisions are made based upon evidence of efficacy.

 

It is all somewhat academic to me as my time has come and gone. I

lasted as long as I could and tried to fight these battles all along

the way, but to no avail. For those who still plan to stick it out,

the viability of your practice depends on these changes taking place.

Even the most entrepreneurial of you will eventually find yourselves

in new careers if the profession as whole takes a PR nosedive.

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 5:31 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Dear Fernando, Z'ev, Bob, et al,

>

> With all due respect, (and I truly mean it--your education and

> experience have raised the bar of our profession significantly, and

> have set in motion the call for higher standards yet), I think that

> the profession has been remiss for not putting pressure upon the

> admissions and guidance departments of our schools, to better

> counsel prospective students, bring existing students down to earth

> to know what to expect after school is over, let them know ahead of

> time what they are getting themselves into, what they will have to

> be paying back each month and for how long. I also don't think

> nearly enough is done with alumni connecting more solidly with

> their alma maters, in terms of mentoring and raising scholarships.

> Scholarships for Chinese medical schools are virtually non-

> existent. I know my school doesn't have an alumni association,

> though my undergraduate college is constantly involved in fund

> raising activities, coordinated with the school itself. I personally

> lucked out when I began in 2000 (not that I would recommend this as

> a strategy for paying for school!): Shortly before I started

> school, my wife and I were involved in a head-on collision. Our car

> was totaled, but we were fine. Essentially the settlement from the

> accident paid for my last 3 years of school. I'll be paying the

> loan on that first year of school for another 5 years or so, but

> that's it. I don't think that it's an exaggeration that one can

> make a good living doing our medicine, but it takes creativity,

> good people skills and salesmanship. Yes, we do have to sell

> ourselves, and that means finding a specialty, niche, or market,

> properly preparing ourselves to know what to answer, and when we do

> to answer with knowledge and confidence.

>

> Is it our responsibility to do everything we can to build our

> profession, from the ground up? I think so. And responsibility

> begins with our schools and ourselves. Dynamically interacting is

> the best prescription for not just raising the standard but even

> surviving.

>

> Yehuda

> fbernall <fbernall wrote:

>

>

> I'm sorry for your experience so far.. My current bill is being

> handled by the US. Dept. of Ed., through a program that puts my

> current $75K bill on hold with interests adding monthly.. I will be

> done paying by the age of 75, another 23 years of my life paying the

> bill back.

>

> A while back I was working 3 days a week, 3 hours a day and making

> over $75K in Delaware working with an MD.. I got tired of the fast

> food style of practicing in an MD's office and move to Asheville, NC,

> believing that the job offer I had, was going to pay me around the

> same even thought I had to work longer hours.. That didn't matter..It

> all turned out to be bullshit and my credit and my wife's went down to

> the drain.

>

> I'm still recuperating from all that lost and our credit is gradually

> improving. I make fewer trips to pawn my sax.

>

> I continue to practice because to me this is a calling. I now live in

> a city I like and plan on staying here. This should make a difference

> in the long run..

>

> There have been times I've felt bitter. Bitter towards the profession,

> the patients and in some cases towards my collegues. In the long run

> it just hurts my health and as I'm on my 50's, I can't afford that..

>

> Good luck and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

>

> Fernando

>

> , wrote:

> >

> > Fernando

> >

> > I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K,

> none of which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now

> capitalized to over 200K and my life is pretty much finanically ruined

> as a result. It doesn't feel very romantic to me at all. It feels more

> like domestic abuse.

> >

>

>

>

> http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Todd for your thoughtful response. You have contributed much to

Chinese medicine, by sharing your knowledge and experience with this group. I

am happy for you that you have now found a way to make it financially and wish

you only success and fulfillment. A couple of short observations on your

comments: 1. Even though surveys have been done to articulate our awareness of

our unpreparedness to face the open market, have practical, proactive, and

innovative steps have yet to be taken to empower our practitioners, new and old.

Beside the lone voices of the likes of Marilyn Allen and Honora Wolf, by and

large we are left to fend for ourselves. THIS IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE! As I

have vented in recent posts, I feel the responsibility rests in two laps: the

schools and our organizations who aggresively need to protect us. The odds are

against us unless we are given more than just the basic training for survival.

2. I disagree that we need to lie and twist

statistics in order to promote our agenda. What we do need is a easily

accessable clearinghouse that can provide from one source reports, information,

studies and statistics which show our medicine in a favorable light. Though Bob

Flaws, and others have done yeomen's jobs in providing us with

evidence, we need it all reviewed and user-friendly. I'm sorry that you've lost

your passion and I hope that I never do.

 

Best wishes and blessings,

 

Yehuda

 

< wrote:

Yehuda

 

Before I left PCOM, they had done a survey of their grads to find out

what they thought was lacking in their education and how they could

best serve alumni. the response was overwhelmingly centered on

business issues. The proposed solution was twofold. Improve training

in this area at school and beef up the support offered to alumni in

the form of regular free seminars. So PCOM clearly did not drop the

ball in this area. However, I doubt any amount of training in

business or tips for success really gets to the heart of the problem.

Most folks who choose to practice medicine are not bloodthirsty

capitalists. While we expect and need to be heavily compensated for

our investment and time, the mindset that is primarily focused on

things like caring for the sick and/or puzzling out their ailments is

often not found in the same person who knows how to promote

themselves and always watch the bottom line. We have the expression

that C students are often the most successful. It is quite true. Its

not a rule, but a fact that there are many savvy business people, who

while not being able to diagnose their way out out of a paper bag,

can still sell themselves to the public. Personally, I would get

physically ill working booths at health fairs or giving talks where I

had to purposely manipulate data to make TCM seem cost-effective for

all that ails a person or represent myself as far more experienced

than I actually was. I have hard seasoned successful practitioners

tell students that when asked by a patient how much experience they

have treating such and such a disease, they should basically lie in

order to secure the patient. This is an ethical breach of the highest

order, IMO.

 

You are completely correct that the only long term solutions involve

the development of scholarship funds, residencies, and an employment

infrastructure. Most MDs don't succeed because they are businessmen.

They succeed because they work in a system that provides them with

ample opportunity to make a living. Even back in the days of private

practice, most doctors did not depend on advertising to attract

patients. They built careers by going to good schools, training at

good hospitals, developing reputations amongst their peers, and

riding on the virtues of a well-established profession. Which doctors

do depend on advertising? Those who perform elective procedures like

plastic surgery and laser eye surgery. That is who the public

compares us to, not as actual physicians.

 

In addition, while medical research can be biased and their have been

plenty of scandals, the lack of any valid research being done in

america on TCM herbology means most folks who see an herbalist are

talking to a clerk at a health food store for free. The media gives

the public no reason to believe they should pay for our services.

There was recently the highest drop in breast cancer rates in modern

medical history. Why? Because women in large numbers, at the advice

of their doctors, based upon research that showed its

ineffectiveness, stopped taking HRT. Unless the current free market

approach to TCM is replaced by such a research-based infrastructure

that might actually challenge certain practices and validate others,

the public will continue to see us as a luxury one turns to when all

else fails. There may have been recent scandals over " approved " drugs

like vioxx, but it was also research that revealed the problem and

regulators who acted on it. All patients have from us is our slick

salesmanship. It is also misleading to read articles such as a recent

one in AT about the insurance industry's coverage of our services.

While it may be true that we have not been been a drain on their

industry, that is largely because reimbursement is still so minimal

and restricted. And that will not change as more and more payment

decisions are made based upon evidence of efficacy.

 

It is all somewhat academic to me as my time has come and gone. I

lasted as long as I could and tried to fight these battles all along

the way, but to no avail. For those who still plan to stick it out,

the viability of your practice depends on these changes taking place.

Even the most entrepreneurial of you will eventually find yourselves

in new careers if the profession as whole takes a PR nosedive.

 

On Dec 18, 2006, at 5:31 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

> Dear Fernando, Z'ev, Bob, et al,

>

> With all due respect, (and I truly mean it--your education and

> experience have raised the bar of our profession significantly, and

> have set in motion the call for higher standards yet), I think that

> the profession has been remiss for not putting pressure upon the

> admissions and guidance departments of our schools, to better

> counsel prospective students, bring existing students down to earth

> to know what to expect after school is over, let them know ahead of

> time what they are getting themselves into, what they will have to

> be paying back each month and for how long. I also don't think

> nearly enough is done with alumni connecting more solidly with

> their alma maters, in terms of mentoring and raising scholarships.

> Scholarships for Chinese medical schools are virtually non-

> existent. I know my school doesn't have an alumni association,

> though my undergraduate college is constantly involved in fund

> raising activities, coordinated with the school itself. I personally

> lucked out when I began in 2000 (not that I would recommend this as

> a strategy for paying for school!): Shortly before I started

> school, my wife and I were involved in a head-on collision. Our car

> was totaled, but we were fine. Essentially the settlement from the

> accident paid for my last 3 years of school. I'll be paying the

> loan on that first year of school for another 5 years or so, but

> that's it. I don't think that it's an exaggeration that one can

> make a good living doing our medicine, but it takes creativity,

> good people skills and salesmanship. Yes, we do have to sell

> ourselves, and that means finding a specialty, niche, or market,

> properly preparing ourselves to know what to answer, and when we do

> to answer with knowledge and confidence.

>

> Is it our responsibility to do everything we can to build our

> profession, from the ground up? I think so. And responsibility

> begins with our schools and ourselves. Dynamically interacting is

> the best prescription for not just raising the standard but even

> surviving.

>

> Yehuda

> fbernall <fbernall wrote:

>

>

> I'm sorry for your experience so far.. My current bill is being

> handled by the US. Dept. of Ed., through a program that puts my

> current $75K bill on hold with interests adding monthly.. I will be

> done paying by the age of 75, another 23 years of my life paying the

> bill back.

>

> A while back I was working 3 days a week, 3 hours a day and making

> over $75K in Delaware working with an MD.. I got tired of the fast

> food style of practicing in an MD's office and move to Asheville, NC,

> believing that the job offer I had, was going to pay me around the

> same even thought I had to work longer hours.. That didn't matter..It

> all turned out to be bullshit and my credit and my wife's went down to

> the drain.

>

> I'm still recuperating from all that lost and our credit is gradually

> improving. I make fewer trips to pawn my sax.

>

> I continue to practice because to me this is a calling. I now live in

> a city I like and plan on staying here. This should make a difference

> in the long run..

>

> There have been times I've felt bitter. Bitter towards the profession,

> the patients and in some cases towards my collegues. In the long run

> it just hurts my health and as I'm on my 50's, I can't afford that..

>

> Good luck and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding on my part.

>

> Fernando

>

> , wrote:

> >

> > Fernando

> >

> > I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K,

> none of which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now

> capitalized to over 200K and my life is pretty much finanically ruined

> as a result. It doesn't feel very romantic to me at all. It feels more

> like domestic abuse.

> >

>

>

>

> http://traditionaljewishmedicine.com/

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

 

" Most folks who choose to practice medicine are not bloodthirsty

capitalists. While we expect and need to be heavily compensated for

our investment and time, the mindset that is primarily focused on

things like caring for the sick and/or puzzling out their ailments is

often not found in the same person who knows how to promote

themselves and always watch the bottom line. "

 

This is a very good point. This is exactly why, in a well-written

business plan for a private acupuncture clinic, one should budget for

someone else to do the fee-taking, fee-setting, appointment-making,

etc. Even better is to hire a Business Manager to take care of all

business decisions so that you are left to make the medical decisions

and give the care. In that case, of course, you as owner would have

final veto power and you also would set the mission and goals of the

clinic. In business, one of the important keys to success is to have

the right people with the right skills and personalities doing the

right jobs. It's called " division of labor. " Have you ever had an MD

take your payment at the end of a visit? Have you ever had an MD make

an appointment for you? I know I haven't.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

all,

 

Here is what the Swedish Institute in NYC has to say about median

acupuncturist earnings. Does nayone know this study?

 

" According to a survey conducted in 1999 by the Medical College of

Wisconsin, most full-time acupuncturists in the U.S. work a 30-hour

week, with median annual earnings of $61,117. Those practicing for

more than five years had a median income of $75,000. "

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

I do not know this study, but here are two (slightly obvious) observations.

 

 

 

1) With this stat, the median practitioner that works 48 weeks a year,

(at 30 hours a week) would only be making an average of $42.44 a hour. (I

assume this is a gross income)

 

2) But more importantly, and I will state the obvious, this stat is

only for people who can make a living as a " full time acupuncturist "

ignoring the many part-timers. I am sure the schools love to quote such a

stat.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Tuesday, December 19, 2006 3:49 PM

 

Re: is it financially feasible to study and practice Chinese

medicine?

 

 

 

all,

 

Here is what the Swedish Institute in NYC has to say about median

acupuncturist earnings. Does nayone know this study?

 

" According to a survey conducted in 1999 by the Medical College of

Wisconsin, most full-time acupuncturists in the U.S. work a 30-hour

week, with median annual earnings of $61,117. Those practicing for

more than five years had a median income of $75,000. "

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Bob and all,

 

This is a very good point. When I was able to hire someone a couple

days a week it really helped me and my ability to focus on the

patients. The reality is that most people don't have the funds

available to be able to start a practice the way it needs to be done

to really succeed. I have heard that MD's have no problem getting

loans to open practices, if this is true why not for acupunturists?

 

When I moved to Oregon and opened my own clinic I did all the " right "

things. I borrowed money ($30K) and made my place nice, really nice!

I offered classes, which included free talks by world renowned

herbalists, I did radio interview-style advertising, I was

interviewed by the paper, I was open for first Friday art night, etc.

And, in the first two years I did well. I grossed $65k in the first

year and almost $75k in the second year. Things were pretty good. My

wife and I picked the area for a variety of reasons, but one of the

most compelling reasons was that there was only two other

practitioners in town, which served around 80,000 people. THEN, there

was a big down-turn in the economy and within a year we 3 went to

we 8 (with yet another L.Ac in a small two close by) and in 6-9

months I went from 30-35 patients a week to 10-15. Unfortunatly for

me I had erred. I had felt good about how things were going and we

bought a house. Although I had a lot of overhead, it seemed

reasonable to me that my practice would continue to grow, even slowly.

First to go was the employee, then the advertising had to be cut,

then I had to get another job to try to make the bills, then the

clinic had to be closed, then the house had to be sold, then the

marriage disolved, now I'm back in school.

So Dave, I tried your small town approach. I had a good solid

business plan, I was active in the community, my place was right down

town in the thick of the business district and I lost my shirt. To be

fair, I'm sure I made some less than favorable decisions. Buying the

house was a mistake, too soon. Having such a large clinic/store (2500

sq ft) was a mistake but I always hoped the store/art gallery area

would at least pay the rent and it was a place for my herbs, a to

hold classes, etc. but other than those things I believe I made good

sound business decisions, even when looking back on it 2 years after

closing. Am I bitter, no not really. I helped a lot of people in that

town and still get holiday cards from two of my past patients. Am I

in deep debt, damn right I have both my student loans ($55K) and the

$30K I borrowed from my family hanging over my head. I am trying to

stay in the field by studying Chinese language and literature and

ethnobotany, but with the recent developments in the piracy

department I am also looking at doing some graphic design studies in

hopes that I will be able to make a living on the side while still

studying Chinese (medicine/lang/lit) and cultural interactions with

plants (ethnobotany).

 

BTW: Since I started practicing I have work on the side as a

langscaper, carpenter, editor, author, teacher (CM), hockey and skate

instructor, sous chef (my former profession), waiter, gardener,

forester all just to try to make ends meet, they rarely have.

 

All the best to you all,

Thomas

 

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

>

>

> " Most folks who choose to practice medicine are not bloodthirsty

> capitalists. While we expect and need to be heavily compensated

for

> our investment and time, the mindset that is primarily focused on

> things like caring for the sick and/or puzzling out their ailments

is

> often not found in the same person who knows how to promote

> themselves and always watch the bottom line. "

>

> This is a very good point. This is exactly why, in a well-written

> business plan for a private acupuncture clinic, one should budget

for

> someone else to do the fee-taking, fee-setting, appointment-making,

> etc. Even better is to hire a Business Manager to take care of all

> business decisions so that you are left to make the medical

decisions

> and give the care. In that case, of course, you as owner would have

> final veto power and you also would set the mission and goals of the

> clinic. In business, one of the important keys to success is to have

> the right people with the right skills and personalities doing the

> right jobs. It's called " division of labor. " Have you ever had an MD

> take your payment at the end of a visit? Have you ever had an MD

make

> an appointment for you? I know I haven't.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing that and being so open Thomas, it was very

interesting.

 

Attilio

www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> Bob and all,

>

> This is a very good point. When I was able to hire someone a couple

> days a week it really helped me and my ability to focus on the

> patients. The reality is that most people don't have the funds

> available to be able to start a practice the way it needs to be

done

> to really succeed. I have heard that MD's have no problem getting

> loans to open practices, if this is true why not for acupunturists?

>

> When I moved to Oregon and opened my own clinic I did all

the " right "

> things. I borrowed money ($30K) and made my place nice, really

nice!

> I offered classes, which included free talks by world renowned

> herbalists, I did radio interview-style advertising, I was

> interviewed by the paper, I was open for first Friday art night,

etc.

> And, in the first two years I did well. I grossed $65k in the first

> year and almost $75k in the second year. Things were pretty good.

My

> wife and I picked the area for a variety of reasons, but one of the

> most compelling reasons was that there was only two other

> practitioners in town, which served around 80,000 people. THEN,

there

> was a big down-turn in the economy and within a year we 3 went to

> we 8 (with yet another L.Ac in a small two close by) and in 6-9

> months I went from 30-35 patients a week to 10-15. Unfortunatly for

> me I had erred. I had felt good about how things were going and we

> bought a house. Although I had a lot of overhead, it seemed

> reasonable to me that my practice would continue to grow, even

slowly.

> First to go was the employee, then the advertising had to be cut,

> then I had to get another job to try to make the bills, then the

> clinic had to be closed, then the house had to be sold, then the

> marriage disolved, now I'm back in school.

> So Dave, I tried your small town approach. I had a good solid

> business plan, I was active in the community, my place was right

down

> town in the thick of the business district and I lost my shirt. To

be

> fair, I'm sure I made some less than favorable decisions. Buying

the

> house was a mistake, too soon. Having such a large clinic/store

(2500

> sq ft) was a mistake but I always hoped the store/art gallery area

> would at least pay the rent and it was a place for my herbs, a to

> hold classes, etc. but other than those things I believe I made

good

> sound business decisions, even when looking back on it 2 years

after

> closing. Am I bitter, no not really. I helped a lot of people in

that

> town and still get holiday cards from two of my past patients. Am I

> in deep debt, damn right I have both my student loans ($55K) and

the

> $30K I borrowed from my family hanging over my head. I am trying to

> stay in the field by studying Chinese language and literature and

> ethnobotany, but with the recent developments in the piracy

> department I am also looking at doing some graphic design studies

in

> hopes that I will be able to make a living on the side while still

> studying Chinese (medicine/lang/lit) and cultural interactions with

> plants (ethnobotany).

>

> BTW: Since I started practicing I have work on the side as a

> langscaper, carpenter, editor, author, teacher (CM), hockey and

skate

> instructor, sous chef (my former profession), waiter, gardener,

> forester all just to try to make ends meet, they rarely have.

>

> All the best to you all,

> Thomas

>

>

> , " Bob Flaws "

> <pemachophel2001@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > " Most folks who choose to practice medicine are not bloodthirsty

> > capitalists. While we expect and need to be heavily compensated

> for

> > our investment and time, the mindset that is primarily focused

on

> > things like caring for the sick and/or puzzling out their

ailments

> is

> > often not found in the same person who knows how to promote

> > themselves and always watch the bottom line. "

> >

> > This is a very good point. This is exactly why, in a well-written

> > business plan for a private acupuncture clinic, one should budget

> for

> > someone else to do the fee-taking, fee-setting, appointment-

making,

> > etc. Even better is to hire a Business Manager to take care of all

> > business decisions so that you are left to make the medical

> decisions

> > and give the care. In that case, of course, you as owner would

have

> > final veto power and you also would set the mission and goals of

the

> > clinic. In business, one of the important keys to success is to

have

> > the right people with the right skills and personalities doing the

> > right jobs. It's called " division of labor. " Have you ever had an

MD

> > take your payment at the end of a visit? Have you ever had an MD

> make

> > an appointment for you? I know I haven't.

> >

> > Bob

> >

>