Guest guest Posted December 18, 2006 Report Share Posted December 18, 2006 Dear Cara and David, I think there is much more to success than LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. We are not selling real estate, we are selling our uniqueness both in terms of what we individually have to offer and the uniqueness of Chinese medicine as different medicine. Though it's easier to make it if someone is looking for an acupuncturist if there are fewer of us, that is by default, and one will never succeed purely by default (although it will generate referrals). Rather, it is important to learn a specialty, really become good at it, and LET THE COMMUNITY KNOW THAT YOU ARE OUT THERE, WHAT YOU DO AND THAT YOU ARE GOOD! There certainly are enough niches to choose from in Chinese medicine and hundreds of ceu accreditated classed to take in medical specialties. Why can't more of us become specialists? Yehuda Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: David makes a good point. It has been relatively easy to be successful in PA because up until this year there was no school, thus, relatively few acupuncturists. Our area is not yet saturated with practitioners. San Diego is an example of an overly saturated area. Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. President China Herb Company of the Chinese Herb Program Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts 215-438-2977 Fax 215-849-3338 <acuman1 Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:32:58 -0500 (EST) Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy ; Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not hundreds of acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we are getting expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our expanding number of practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where it is popular to live, aka where the colleges are. David Molony In a message dated 12/18/06 2:11:07 PM, <%40comcast.net> writes: > Fernando > > I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K, none of > which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now capitalized to over 200K > and my life is pretty much finanically ruined as a result. It doesn't feel very > romantic to me at all. It feels more like domestic abuse. > > " No one wants advice- only corroboration. " John Steinbeck David Molony 101 Bridge Street Catasauqua, PA 18032 Phone (610)264-2755 Fax (610) 264-7292 **********Confidentiality Notice ********** This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU Safe Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the intended recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, copying or storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender by return email and delete the electronic transmission, including all attachments from your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 Yehuda While location, location,location is a successful approach for those who want to be business people, it is not the approach that most of us can stomach. It is good for the public that fine folks like Dave and Cara make a decent living (how much debt did you guys graduate with, BTW), but it also results in lot of charlatans out there hawking scams like NAET or color therapy or acupuncture facelifts. On Dec 18, 2006, at 10:54 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Cara and David, > > I think there is much more to success than LOCATION, LOCATION, > LOCATION. We are not selling real estate, we are selling our > uniqueness both in terms of what we individually have to offer and > the uniqueness of Chinese medicine as different medicine. Though > it's easier to make it if someone is looking for an acupuncturist > if there are fewer of us, that is by default, and one will never > succeed purely by default (although it will generate referrals). > Rather, it is important to learn a specialty, really become good at > it, and LET THE COMMUNITY KNOW THAT YOU ARE OUT THERE, WHAT YOU DO > AND THAT YOU ARE GOOD! There certainly are enough niches to choose > from in Chinese medicine and hundreds of ceu accreditated classed > to take in medical specialties. Why can't more of us become > specialists? > > Yehuda > > Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > David makes a good point. It has been relatively easy to be > successful in PA > because up until this year there was no school, thus, relatively few > acupuncturists. Our area is not yet saturated with practitioners. > > San Diego is an example of an overly saturated area. > > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. > President China Herb Company > Director of the Chinese Herb Program > Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts > 215-438-2977 > Fax 215-849-3338 > > <acuman1 > > Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:32:58 -0500 (EST) > > Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy > ; > Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not > hundreds of > acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we are > getting > expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our expanding > number of > practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where > it is > popular to live, aka where the colleges are. > David Molony > > In a message dated 12/18/06 2:11:07 PM, > <%40comcast.net> writes: > > > Fernando > > > > I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K, > none of > > which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now capitalized > to over 200K > > and my life is pretty much finanically ruined as a result. It > doesn't feel > very > > romantic to me at all. It feels more like domestic abuse. > > > > > > > " No one wants advice- only corroboration. " > John Steinbeck > > David Molony > 101 Bridge Street > Catasauqua, PA 18032 > Phone (610)264-2755 > Fax (610) 264-7292 > > **********Confidentiality Notice ********** > This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other > writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended > recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information > that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from > disclosure > under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU > Safe > Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are > responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data > integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the > intended > recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for > delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, > copying or > storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this information in error, please notify the sender by return > email and delete the electronic transmission, including all > attachments from > your system. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 That was not the point. When one graduates from college, one needs to generalize to pay back debt while working to specialize (unless there is a sugardaddy or mammy involved) by furthering education. If you luck out and live in a place that is presently expanding, by the time you are good and specialized in 1 or 2 specialties by your continuing education (I suggest about 100+ hours a year) you will be a big fish in your area and do well. Of course one can go to China and compress the clinical learning curve, too. DAVe In a message dated 12/18/06 11:01:52 PM, writes: > > Dear Cara and David, > > I think there is much more to success than LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. We > are not selling real estate, we are selling our uniqueness both in terms of > what we individually have to offer and the uniqueness of Chinese medicine as > different medicine. Though it's easier to make it if someone is looking for an > acupuncturist if there are fewer of us, that is by default, and one will > never succeed purely by default (although it will generate referrals). Rather, > it is important to learn a specialty, really become good at it, and LET THE > COMMUNITY KNOW THAT YOU ARE OUT THERE, WHAT YOU DO AND THAT YOU ARE GOOD! There > certainly are enough niches to choose from in Chinese medicine and hundreds > of ceu accreditated classed to take in medical specialties. Why can't more of > us become specialists? > > Yehuda > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 In a message dated 12/19/06 5:23:15 AM, writes: > It is good for the public that fine folks like Dave > and Cara make a decent living (how much debt did you guys graduate > with, BTW), but it also results in lot of charlatans out there > hawking scams like NAET or color therapy or acupuncture facelifts. > I saved some for college and then worked my way thru the 2nd 2/3 of school, being a chronic sleep depraved (har) workaholic by nature. Luckily for me, I am both dumb and pragmatic so that NAET has worked for my allergies and those of those of my patients I have felt it was indicated for. I stalled on learning the NAET for 2 years because I couldn't see how it would possibly work, but had so many people I respected get good results, I took the course. I have found it to be interesting and useful, but have not gone to the extremes I have seen many go with it due to my pragmatic nature, nor do I promise it to work. I only tell the patient that I have seen it work and that I think it might be useful for them if I indeed think that is true. I will not refuse to use something that is beneficial for my patients merely because it doesnt' fit my belief system. This is for the same reason I refer out to MD's at times when I think that all that is needed is patience but that the patient might not have it, so they can continue on with me later for their benefit in the long run. Incidentally, I steeply discount the repeat treatment process used by NAET so that it is available financially to most folks. I feel they have already been charlataned by other folks, like allergists and such. Whoops! Seems I started a new thread. Todd brought up the NAET. Not me! David Molony " No one wants advice- only corroboration. " John Steinbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2006 Report Share Posted December 19, 2006 You completely missed my point. The comment, " location, location, location " was presented precisely for the opposite reason than usually applied and was stated with tongue firmly planted in cheek, to express the view that one doesn't need to be in a juicy location to succeed, nor do they need to be in a small town. I also respectfully reject your contention that because new, innovative, and yes, (though sacrilegious), non-Chinese medical approaches may be integrated into one's practice, if they complement one's practice and enable one to solve problems that are not effectively resolved by Chinese medicine or acupuncture, then they should not be dismissed. In reference to the modalities you mention, I think it's a wonderful application to use acupuncture and electroacupuncture to help women feel good about themselves, and it works. As far as NAET, from that not so successful form of allergy testing and desensitization, IMO, has come Bioset, which integrates acupuncture (at least the way I do it) into the process with much success, especially when complemented with herbs. Color and sound acupuncture are interesting new applications which I haven't been inclined to explore yet, but that doesn't invalidate them nor does it mean that they can't be adjunct therapies. The key, I feel, is that we proceed in the process of developing a pattern differentiation and Chinese diagnosis, not falling into the trap of treating symptoms or western diseases, and use supplemental tools that augment our success when they harmonize with Chinese medical theory. Yehuda < wrote: Yehuda While location, location,location is a successful approach for those who want to be business people, it is not the approach that most of us can stomach. It is good for the public that fine folks like Dave and Cara make a decent living (how much debt did you guys graduate with, BTW), but it also results in lot of charlatans out there hawking scams like NAET or color therapy or acupuncture facelifts. On Dec 18, 2006, at 10:54 PM, yehuda frischman wrote: > Dear Cara and David, > > I think there is much more to success than LOCATION, LOCATION, > LOCATION. We are not selling real estate, we are selling our > uniqueness both in terms of what we individually have to offer and > the uniqueness of Chinese medicine as different medicine. Though > it's easier to make it if someone is looking for an acupuncturist > if there are fewer of us, that is by default, and one will never > succeed purely by default (although it will generate referrals). > Rather, it is important to learn a specialty, really become good at > it, and LET THE COMMUNITY KNOW THAT YOU ARE OUT THERE, WHAT YOU DO > AND THAT YOU ARE GOOD! There certainly are enough niches to choose > from in Chinese medicine and hundreds of ceu accreditated classed > to take in medical specialties. Why can't more of us become > specialists? > > Yehuda > > Cara Frank <herbbabe wrote: > David makes a good point. It has been relatively easy to be > successful in PA > because up until this year there was no school, thus, relatively few > acupuncturists. Our area is not yet saturated with practitioners. > > San Diego is an example of an overly saturated area. > > Cara O. Frank, R.Ac, Dipl Ac & Ch.H. > President China Herb Company > Director of the Chinese Herb Program > Tai Sophia Institute of the Healing Arts > 215-438-2977 > Fax 215-849-3338 > > <acuman1 > > Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:32:58 -0500 (EST) > > Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy > ; > Have you tried private practice in an area where there is not > hundreds of > acupuncturists? It seems to me that as our profession matures, we are > getting > expanded coverage by carriers, enough to expand to cover our expanding > number of > practitioners. This of course may not be happening in areas where > it is > popular to live, aka where the colleges are. > David Molony > > In a message dated 12/18/06 2:11:07 PM, > <%40comcast.net> writes: > > > Fernando > > > > I have no idea how much you payed for school, but it cost me 75K, > none of > > which I have ever been able to pay back. It has now capitalized > to over 200K > > and my life is pretty much finanically ruined as a result. It > doesn't feel > very > > romantic to me at all. It feels more like domestic abuse. > > > > > > > " No one wants advice- only corroboration. " > John Steinbeck > > David Molony > 101 Bridge Street > Catasauqua, PA 18032 > Phone (610)264-2755 > Fax (610) 264-7292 > > **********Confidentiality Notice ********** > This electronic transmission and any attached documents or other > writings are confidential and are for the sole use of the intended > recipient(s) identified above. This message may contain information > that is privileged, confidential or otherwise protected from > disclosure > under applicable law, including the FTC Safeguard Rule and U.S.-EU > Safe > Harbor Principles. If you are the intended recipient, you are > responsible for establishing appropriate safeguards to maintain data > integrity and security. If the receiver of this information is not the > intended > recipient, or the employee, or agent responsible for > delivering the information to the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that any use, reading, dissemination, distribution, > copying or > storage of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this information in error, please notify the sender by return > email and delete the electronic transmission, including all > attachments from > your system. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2006 Report Share Posted December 23, 2006 Just to throw my 8000000 cents in - why do people harp about LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION? Because it's about VISIBILITY, VISIBILITY, VISIBILITY. I live in Springfield, Missouri. The market is nothing like when I was in Seattle, Washington. In Seattle, I had a practice on Capitol Hill, and there were 100 listings in the yellow pages within 1 mile of my office. When I moved to Missouri, there were about 43 LAc's in the whole state. I do have more patients here, but not gobs more. I think oversaturation is overrated. Doubts? Check for chiropractor listings in your town. I think the main limiting factor is that most people don't know what acupuncture can treat and they don't know where you are. ie, VISIBILITY in two dimensions. If you can let a population have one iota of an idea of what you can treat and that you are located somewhere, you should do pretty well. I had one office by downtown Seattle that cost me $800 a month for one measly little room.... in a very busy chiropractic clinic, and I was seeing 28 people a week in about 2 weeks without doing any advertising. I saw Jeremy Ross and his wife Ann, practicing in the basement of their house (which I hear a lot of people try) and, well, they don't live in Seattle anymore... just an example of excellent practitioners without a great location. And then there are the busy clinics with louses for practitioners that do a 4 minute (excuse the cross-discipline reference) 'million dollar poke (s/b 'roll' from the DC parker people) and the patients never feel Qi on the needles. I think there has to be a good balance in here somewhere, and I will have to check out some of the good recommendations made here to see what might work well for me. Geoff , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear Cara and David, > > I think there is much more to success than LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 All, I have been out of town for two weeks and returned to see this lengthy conversation about how difficult it is to make it as an acupuncturist in the US. This thread concerns me, as one who has seen many acupuncturists do extremely well, financially. While I suspect there are many reasons why people might not do well, some of which have been covered previous posts, I suspect that the responses from unsuccessful practitioners might not be representative of the field. It is the nature of this sort of discussion that those who are least happy will be the most vocal while those who are doing well will have no motivation to be part of the discussion. This has certainly been the case for me and, via a few phone calls and emails to colleagues of mine, the case of others that I know. The second issue that may be at the root of why no one who was doing well responded on the list is that there is a tendency, in the US at least, to not want to toot one's own horn. As had been reported in the news a few years ago, when wealthy and upper middle class people in America are asked in surveys to categorize their wealth, a majority inaccurately respond by saying they are, 'middle class'. The same group of colleagues that I called echoed this saying things like, " I don't want to seem like I'm boasting when so many on that list sound so unhappy. " Certainly this has also been the case for me. What drove me to type this quick letter, is that these sorts of online discussion tend to develop a life of their own. The long term success of our field depends on the ability to attract smart, charismatic people who can simultaneously build a build their own business. If those who are considering entering the field do research and discover the the thread which precedes this letter it may dissuade them from entering our profession. More the shame for all of us. So while I think it's important to hammer out what makes a practice more likely to succeed, and to enourage the schools to teach business skills at a much higher level, I believe it is equally important to encourage the many members of our profession who are silent because they are successful and content to share what they know to create a more balanced perception of our field. Sincerely, Mark Reese <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=201013/grpspId=1705060815/msgId= 38282/stime=1166919989/nc1=3848644/nc2=4025306/nc3=3848528> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Mark I hope people will toot their own horns here is they have anything to toot. However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade people from making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my entire life. Maybe you are right about the failures making the most noise. Or maybe its that certain people are just not cut out for practice (I admit that is true about me). We need to know what type of people succeed and why before people who are destined to fail waste their time and money. I think it is just as likely that you hang out with a group of successful practitioners who do not represent the majority as the converse (us naysaying failures hanging out together as well). However, I do have to reiterate that my assessment is not based solely on my own experience (everyone on this list knows what I think of personal anecdotes), but rather the reports to me by well over a 100 of my former students. If I have students out there who are doing quite well and keeping it to themselves , please let me know so I can reassess this matter. FYI, Lisa Rohleder was in acupuncture school at OCOM when I ran their pharmacy and taught a few classes soon after I had graduated in the mid-'90s. She is apparently quite successful, yet she has also been very vocal on the same point I have made here. I have no idea where she gets her data from, but she repeatedly has stated in her column in AT that 50% are not making ends meet after 5 years in the profession. I am actually surprised AT would let such a statement be printed over and over again if there was not some truth in it. The owners of AT have a vested interest in the field being a thriving one. Apparently, they are so concerned that it is not that they allow Lisa to rail on about this issue month after month. > > What drove me to type this quick letter, is that these sorts of online > discussion tend to develop a life of their own. The long term success of our > field depends on the ability to attract smart, charismatic people who can > simultaneously build a build their own business. If those who are > considering entering the field do research and discover the the thread which > precedes this letter it may dissuade them from entering our profession. More > the shame for all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 I don't doubt that you felt your experience in TCM was a mistake if not some sort of a nightmare. However, it seems you did walk away from a full-time job in the field. Maybe it wasn't enough for you financially or emotionally or whatever but from up here in Los Angeles, it seems that you weren't one of those that couldn't make it. It seems you were. IF you weren't cut out for private practice then that's another story. As the son of a college professor I'm not so quick to dismiss, academia as useless even if there are no jobs at the other end. You must admit that this field is worth study. A quick google of " small business failure " got me the following statistic- its about a third split between all newish businesses - success, breaking even, failure. Can you imagine the success rate for MD's if they all had to rent space and hang up their own shingles? Again, I've seen some of my students really thrive in their own offices right out of school. Others flounder. Others do OK, but I don't know of many as bitter or regretful about the experience as you. doug , wrote: > > Mark > > I hope people will toot their own horns here is they have anything to toot. However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade people from making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my entire life. Maybe you are right about the failures making the most noise. Or maybe its that certain people are just not cut out for practice (I admit that is true about me). We need to know what type of people succeed and why before people who are destined to fail waste their time and money. I think it is just as likely that you hang out with a group of successful practitioners who do not represent the majority as the converse (us naysaying failures hanging out together as well). However, I do have to reiterate that my assessment is not based solely on my own experience (everyone on this list knows what I think of personal anecdotes), but rather the reports to me by well over a 100 of my former students. If I have students out there who are doing quite well and keeping it to themselves > , please let me know so I can reassess this matter. FYI, Lisa Rohleder was in acupuncture school at OCOM when I ran their pharmacy and taught a few classes soon after I had graduated in the mid-'90s. She is apparently quite successful, yet she has also been very vocal on the same point I have made here. I have no idea where she gets her data from, but she repeatedly has stated in her column in AT that 50% are not making ends meet after 5 years in the profession. I am actually surprised AT would let such a statement be printed over and over again if there was not some truth in it. The owners of AT have a vested interest in the field being a thriving one. Apparently, they are so concerned that it is not that they allow Lisa to rail on about this issue month after month. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 What is problematic about your statements is that you are the proprietor of Chinese Herbal Medicine, a group that promotes the practice of Chinese medicine. Therefore, on your own group, your opinion is proportionately influential. But your opinion is diametrically opposite to the function of this group, which is to encourage the practice of Chinese medicine for the benefit of both patients and practitioners. In my opinion, this is a conflict of interest for you to post this on CHA (discouraging new practitioners and students). While it is clearly difficult to practice Chinese medicine for a living, it is not impossible, as you seem to imply. On Jan 4, 2007, at 10:36 AM, wrote: > Mark > > I hope people will toot their own horns here is they have anything > to toot. However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade > people from making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my > entire life. Maybe you are right about the failures making the most > noise. Or maybe its that certain people are just not cut out for > practice (I admit that is true about me). We need to know what type > of people succeed and why before people who are destined to fail > waste their time and money. I think it is just as likely that you > hang out with a group of successful practitioners who do not > represent the majority as the converse (us naysaying failures > hanging out together as well). However, I do have to reiterate that > my assessment is not based solely on my own experience (everyone on > this list knows what I think of personal anecdotes), but rather the > reports to me by well over a 100 of my former students. If I have > students out there who are doing quite well and keeping it to > themselves > > > > > What drove me to type this quick letter, is that these sorts of > online > > discussion tend to develop a life of their own. The long term > success of our > > field depends on the ability to attract smart, charismatic people > who can > > simultaneously build a build their own business. If those who are > > considering entering the field do research and discover the the > thread which > > precedes this letter it may dissuade them from entering our > profession. More > > the shame for all of us. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hi Todd et al, My two cents: My experience is that most of the people that I know that aren't doing well never truely contemplated the reality of what they were getting themselves into. This was part of my meditation before starting CM school-many people are not doing well in this field. Why? Can I afford to expend time, energy and money investing into a stagnant and deficient future? Can I create a niche for myself? Am I well enough connected within a certain community to rely on that alone? Do I need to know medical Chinese? Should I study pain management as well as Internal Medicine because all the stats seem to point to that being a major factor in who seeks out our services? If I really love herbs much more than acupuncture, can I feed a family as a struggling herbalist, or should I assume that I'll need to pay the rent with acupuncture? Can I afford to , or not afford to, hire a front desk manager? etc, etc. Most of the people that I know that are struggling never even thought about these things BEFORE or DURING their schooling. I chewed on this stuff all through my education, so I could strategize a successful future. I agree that " where there is a will, there is a way " . I just think it is important to cultivate foresight and review the reality before such a large investment is made. There are no guarantees, but I have seen this method work for a number of " successful " people. Cheers, Kip On Behalf Of Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:36 AM RE: Re: why acupuncturist don't make it Mark I hope people will toot their own horns here is they have anything to toot. However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade people from making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my entire life. Maybe you are right about the failures making the most noise. Or maybe its that certain people are just not cut out for practice (I admit that is true about me). We need to know what type of people succeed and why before people who are destined to fail waste their time and money. I think it is just as likely that you hang out with a group of successful practitioners who do not represent the majority as the converse (us naysaying failures hanging out together as well). However, I do have to reiterate that my assessment is not based solely on my own experience (everyone on this list knows what I think of personal anecdotes), but rather the reports to me by well over a 100 of my former students. If I have students out there who are doing quite well and keeping it to themselves , please let me know so I can reassess this matter. FYI, Lisa Rohleder was in acupuncture school at OCOM when I ran their pharmacy and taught a few classes soon after I had graduated in the mid-'90s. She is apparently quite successful, yet she has also been very vocal on the same point I have made here. I have no idea where she gets her data from, but she repeatedly has stated in her column in AT that 50% are not making ends meet after 5 years in the profession. I am actually surprised AT would let such a statement be printed over and over again if there was not some truth in it. The owners of AT have a vested interest in the field being a thriving one. Apparently, they are so concerned that it is not that they allow Lisa to rail on about this issue month after month. > > What drove me to type this quick letter, is that these sorts of online > discussion tend to develop a life of their own. The long term success of our > field depends on the ability to attract smart, charismatic people who can > simultaneously build a build their own business. If those who are > considering entering the field do research and discover the the thread which > precedes this letter it may dissuade them from entering our profession. More > the shame for all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Todd While i know the bay area is a difficult place to start a practice from what i have seen in the past 20 years is that less than 15% of LAc in this area have ever made a decent living. Those that do well however do very well. I have some very talented students, better clinicians than most out there, that cant make a living. Its kind of sad Oakland, CA 94609 - Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:36 AM RE: Re: why acupuncturist don't make it Mark I hope people will toot their own horns here is they have anything to toot. However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade people from making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my entire life. Maybe you are right about the failures making the most noise. Or maybe its that certain people are just not cut out for practice (I admit that is true about me). We need to know what type of people succeed and why before people who are destined to fail waste their time and money. I think it is just as likely that you hang out with a group of successful practitioners who do not represent the majority as the converse (us naysaying failures hanging out together as well). However, I do have to reiterate that my assessment is not based solely on my own experience (everyone on this list knows what I think of personal anecdotes), but rather the reports to me by well over a 100 of my former students. If I have students out there who are doing quite well and keeping it to themselves , please let me know so I can reassess this matter. FYI, Lisa Rohleder was in acupuncture school at OCOM when I ran their pharmacy and taught a few classes soon after I had graduated in the mid-'90s. She is apparently quite successful, yet she has also been very vocal on the same point I have made here. I have no idea where she gets her data from, but she repeatedly has stated in her column in AT that 50% are not making ends meet after 5 years in the profession. I am actually surprised AT would let such a statement be printed over and over again if there was not some truth in it. The owners of AT have a vested interest in the field being a thriving one. Apparently, they are so concerned that it is not that they allow Lisa to rail on about this issue month after month. Todd > > What drove me to type this quick letter, is that these sorts of online > discussion tend to develop a life of their own. The long term success of our > field depends on the ability to attract smart, charismatic people who can > simultaneously build a build their own business. If those who are > considering entering the field do research and discover the the thread which > precedes this letter it may dissuade them from entering our profession. More > the shame for all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 " I am actually surprised AT would let such a statement be printed over and over again if there was not some truth in it. " AT purports to be a " newspaper, " but it does not adhere to standard principles of journalism. As far as I know, there is no professionally trained journalist on staff, nor do they employ fact-checkers. IMHO, AT is simply a for-profit vehicle for selling advertising. The same people also print rags for the DCs, NDs, and massage therapists -- same exact format. So I cannot agree that, because AT lets a seeming statistic run, that statistic has their imprimatur. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Absolutely. Especially when the proprietor of this group is the one initiating the discussion. On Jan 4, 2007, at 8:00 AM, Mark Reese wrote: > What drove me to type this quick letter, is that these sorts of online > discussion tend to develop a life of their own. The long term > success of our > field depends on the ability to attract smart, charismatic people > who can > simultaneously build a build their own business. If those who are > considering entering the field do research and discover the the > thread which > precedes this letter it may dissuade them from entering our > profession. More > the shame for all of us. > > So while I think it's important to hammer out what makes a practice > more > likely to succeed, and to enourage the schools to teach business > skills at a > much higher level, I believe it is equally important to encourage > the many > members of our profession who are silent because they are > successful and > content to share what they know to create a more balanced > perception of our > field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Zev I think a list such as this should encourage full discussion of pro and cons of the profession and the medicine. I am afraid that what you say is all to common an attitude regarding the medicine as well. Oakland, CA 94609 - Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:32 AM Re: Re: why acupuncturist don't make it What is problematic about your statements is that you are the proprietor of Chinese Herbal Medicine, a group that promotes the practice of Chinese medicine. Therefore, on your own group, your opinion is proportionately influential. But your opinion is diametrically opposite to the function of this group, which is to encourage the practice of Chinese medicine for the benefit of both patients and practitioners. In my opinion, this is a conflict of interest for you to post this on CHA (discouraging new practitioners and students). While it is clearly difficult to practice Chinese medicine for a living, it is not impossible, as you seem to imply. On Jan 4, 2007, at 10:36 AM, wrote: > Mark > > I hope people will toot their own horns here is they have anything > to toot. However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade > people from making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my > entire life. Maybe you are right about the failures making the most > noise. Or maybe its that certain people are just not cut out for > practice (I admit that is true about me). We need to know what type > of people succeed and why before people who are destined to fail > waste their time and money. I think it is just as likely that you > hang out with a group of successful practitioners who do not > represent the majority as the converse (us naysaying failures > hanging out together as well). However, I do have to reiterate that > my assessment is not based solely on my own experience (everyone on > this list knows what I think of personal anecdotes), but rather the > reports to me by well over a 100 of my former students. If I have > students out there who are doing quite well and keeping it to > themselves > > > > > What drove me to type this quick letter, is that these sorts of > online > > discussion tend to develop a life of their own. The long term > success of our > > field depends on the ability to attract smart, charismatic people > who can > > simultaneously build a build their own business. If those who are > > considering entering the field do research and discover the the > thread which > > precedes this letter it may dissuade them from entering our > profession. More > > the shame for all of us. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Just to get busy with some adages: Dont shoot the messenger. It would seem that Todd is just " calling a spade a bloody shovel. " To throw in some Australian idiom. This seems to be the inverse of what is happening in this country in western medicine, whereby medical doctors all like to bandy about the idea that doctors really dont do that well anymore, when in reality, to quote the HOD of the future Deakin medical school, " ...whilst many of my colleagues would get very upset with me saying this, Doctors ARE NOT poor in this country. " It would seem to come down to usefull comparisons for me: In the case of doctors, when compared to bank executives, they dont do too well, but compared to school teachers, their sitting pretty. In the case of Chinese medicine practitioners, even when we say someone is doing well, define " well " . Compared to working for McDonalds, they could be said to be doing well, but compared to the aforementioned school teachers, its pretty ordinary, and thats saying something! There are of course exceptions to the rule, and good for them! But it doesnt change the general rule as it stands. Call me a dreamer, but personally, I have a long range plan to advocate for the inclusion of Chinese medicine professional into the hospital system along with other allied health, such as physiotherapists and occupational therapists and even diversional therapists. (If them, why not us?) herbal medicine might be pushing the envelope a bit, but even if acupuncture scope of practice was reduced to the available evidence base, that would still include post operative nausea and pain relief. And more jobs for all! (We might still be some time away from Alon treating acute abdomens in a hospital setting though, mores the pity. ) Regards, Lea. , " " <alonmarcus wrote: > > Zev > I think a list such as this should encourage full discussion of pro and cons of the profession and the medicine. I am afraid that what you say is all to common an attitude regarding the medicine as well. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hi Todd. Regarding this statement: >However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade people from making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my entire life. I have to tell you. . . I was reading this when my patient walked in today. She used to come into the school clinic. I asked her if she remembered you. She said yes, and that you were the reason she used to go to that clinic. . .the treatments and herbs helped her a ton. You were good. And you were a really good herbs teacher. Very systematic. I just thought it all was kind of ironic. . .and wanted to share the compliment with you. Amiably, Gina Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Alon, Don't put words in my mouth about 'attitude'. I never said these issues shouldn't be discussed. My point is simply that the direction of this list is largely determined by its owner, and that the goals of this list needs to be redefined at this point, now that Todd's present position has been made clear. I have been a member of this list since its inception, and the shift in orientation and bias needs to be acknowledged. The list is owned and operated by someone who no longer practices Chinese medicine or is interested in the profession at large. This leads to a certain bias. I am someone who has invested a lot of time and involvement into CHA since its inception. If the focus of this group has changed, let it be made clear so that we may choose our future involvement. On Jan 4, 2007, at 3:45 PM, wrote: > Zev > I think a list such as this should encourage full discussion of pro > and cons of the profession and the medicine. I am afraid that what > you say is all to common an attitude regarding the medicine as well. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Zev At this point Todd is only a peripheral poster, ie not very frequent. I think the character of the list is with us. Todd has a view and is entitled to share just as all of us. Hopefully such opinions would come with some support. I apologize if i did not understand what you wrote Oakland, CA 94609 - Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:05 PM Re: Re: why acupuncturist don't make it Alon, Don't put words in my mouth about 'attitude'. I never said these issues shouldn't be discussed. My point is simply that the direction of this list is largely determined by its owner, and that the goals of this list needs to be redefined at this point, now that Todd's present position has been made clear. I have been a member of this list since its inception, and the shift in orientation and bias needs to be acknowledged. The list is owned and operated by someone who no longer practices Chinese medicine or is interested in the profession at large. This leads to a certain bias. I am someone who has invested a lot of time and involvement into CHA since its inception. If the focus of this group has changed, let it be made clear so that we may choose our future involvement. On Jan 4, 2007, at 3:45 PM, wrote: > Zev > I think a list such as this should encourage full discussion of pro > and cons of the profession and the medicine. I am afraid that what > you say is all to common an attitude regarding the medicine as well. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Alon, I appreciate Todd's honesty and full disclosure. I am just concerned about how students and new practitioners who are in 'the background' on the list must feel about all this. And, like Mark Reese, I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from studying Chinese medicine as a possible profession. On Jan 4, 2007, at 10:32 PM, wrote: > Zev > At this point Todd is only a peripheral poster, ie not very > frequent. I think the character of the list is with us. Todd has a > view and is entitled to share just as all of us. Hopefully such > opinions would come with some support. > I apologize if i did not understand what you wrote > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 The same statement read ironic for me as well for a different reason. I often say, and mean, that choosing TCM as a career has been the best thing that could have happened to me both as a passion and financially. Mark Reese _____ On Behalf Of Gina Zuleger Thursday, January 04, 2007 10:07 PM Re: why acupuncturist don't make it Hi Todd. Regarding this statement: >However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade people from making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my entire life. I have to tell you. . . I was reading this when my patient walked in today. She used to come into the school clinic. I asked her if she remembered you. She said yes, and that you were the reason she used to go to that clinic. . .the treatments and herbs helped her a ton. You were good. And you were a really good herbs teacher. Very systematic. I just thought it all was kind of ironic. . .and wanted to share the compliment with you. Amiably, Gina Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Z'ev, " In my opinion, this is a conflict of interest for you to post this on CHA (discouraging new practitioners and students). " Respectuflly, I do not agree. As a previous poster mentioned, until or unless students and practitioners wake up to the business realities of making a living from this medicine, there will be a large number of failures. While I think that Todd's experience is as much his personal responsibility as any institutional failing, I do not see it as a conflict of interest for him to state his opinions about his failure on this forum. It is up to readers of this forum to sift through the various opinions and decide for themselves what to believe. A number of respondents have chimed in saying that they and those they know are doing just fine. Personally, I have found this encouraging to hear. The issue as I see it is that, given the current realities, students and practitioners have to know that they are going to be entrepreneurs. If one understands, accepts, and acts on that knowledge, then they can succeed. That being said, not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur. No harm, no foul. It's just the way things are at this time and in this place. One can go with the flow or against it. If one goes against it, then one should at least know what they are doing and why and what the likely outcomes will be. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 On 1/4/07, < wrote: > > Mark > > I hope people will toot their own horns here is they have anything to > toot. However, I have to admit that it is my intent to dissuade people from > making what I consider to be the worst mistake of my entire life....[sNIPPED > POST] > . > > > Dear Todd (et al), As a relatively new practitioner, I have of course been following this thread fairly closely. As one of your former students, you know that I hold you in high regard and consider you one of my most influential teachers. One of the things I admire about you is your insistence on encouraging critical thinking and debate by ensuring both sides of an issue are thoroughly analyzed and included in the discussion and that information is not simply discarded because it is unpleasant. So, thank you for continuing to bring your passion to this discussion. Although you have admitted your bias and may feel residual anger and perhaps bitterness, I like to think you are still just trying to look out for us in your own unique way - as any good teacher would! In general, I do think success or failure has more to do with the individual as opposed to a particular profession on the whole. On the other hand, it seems you have much more input from a larger body of students giving you feedback (not to mention others on this list) on their experiences and that information provides valuable data as well. However, I don't believe that an objective analysis of the data has been completed such that one can make any conclusions as to the " why " and I certainly don't think it has been proven to be something inherent to this profession. I'm not saying that the data won't show that, only that it hasn't been done yet. Its situations such as these that I fall back to my very early days when I was first starting out in the tech industry and was working as a quality engineer. At the time, it was my job to apply metrics to processes to determine objectively whether the process was improving or interfering with productivity. To me, this is a more meaningful way of looking at data that contains a large subjective component. When I was able to " prove " to management that the software developer's complaints regarding a particular development process actually had an impact on their productivity based on a metrical analysis of the problem and could show where the problem actually was, then the process could be improved. Productivity increased, developers were happy and management was able to make effective change. Otherwise it was just noise without any meaningful interpretation or identified action. I am suggesting that perhaps the 100+ reports from former students expressing their frustration at not being successful in this profession could benefit from applying some metrics to the data to see what we can learn from it. After all, that's what this discussion should ultimately lead to, in my opinion. This is a diametric discussion. Success. Failure. Each with individual interpretations. You say it is your goal to dissuade others from making the same mistake you made. Perhaps what made it a mistake for you (and that makes me so sad to type), doesn't apply to all situations. Or, perhaps it, as you wrote, is not a good profession choice for someone who doesn't enjoy the day-to-day people-angle of private practice. Perhaps it has to do with age of the student relative to their life experience, business savvy, ability to survive in an entrepreneurial environment, willingness to seek out opportunities to lecture to their community, volunteer with community events, etc. There are also some very important demographic metrics that could be applied such as age of student upon admission, age of student upon graduation, previous occupation, years spent in previous occupation, completion of undergrad vs. assoc, debt to income ratio upon graduation, city/state/location, sole practitioner vs. group practice, independent contractor vs. clinic owner, married/partner vs. single (goes to additional sources of income while establishing one's self), children/no children, etc. There are many, many contributing factors (i.e., metrics) that can be applied to this situation so that we can begin to truly understand what makes one successful vs. non-successful. As for where am I with regards to establishing a new practice? Happy. I've been out of school for just about 2 years, but I didn't start my own clinic till a year ago January 1, 2006. I was able to leave PCOM-SD without incurring any student-related debt, a result of forward planning on my part before leaving my previous established career. I am basically on target with where I expected to be by this time – although in all honesty, I've missed a few projections. But I think that's normal. I've also made some mistakes (biggest one is I should have started marketing about 5 months before I actually did, but I was overwhelmed with starting a new business and just didn't get to it). I am working full-time at my clinic and am not moonlighting in any other industry. I've made it through the first year where most new businesses fail, so I think that speaks to the overall health of the business in general. I enjoy my patients. I have some very interesting cases that keep me on my toes and my nose in the books (which I love). I work with herbs every day. I enjoy my business model and the way I've chosen to run it. I spend 2 hours w/ most new patients and an hour+ with return patients (primarily because I have a love of external herb application and usually am doing something along those lines in addition to acupx). I don't rush an herbal formula - if I need more time to review the case and mull over someone's Rx, then I do it and have them come back to pick it up or I mail it out. Hopefully over time I can speed this up, but for now I take my time. None of my patient's have complained and instead are appreciative that I am willing to spend time on their case. I love my clinic space (1252 sq ft w/ 4 tx rooms, exercise/injury rehab space, office, kitchen & bathroom) and have plans to incorporate community related projects. I don't like having to charge money but do it anyway (and I've been known to write off a patient's balance from time to time). I would like a front office person to deal with that, but that probably won't happen for another year. I do not yet have anyone else sharing space with me, but hope to find a massage therapist and either a pilates/yoga/tai chi instructor this year as independent contractors. But I'm not financially dependent on finding that in order to keep the clinic doors open, so I feel good about that. I haven't technically paid myself this past year, but I think that's normal for a first year as well (and probably why some people fail – you have to be able to sustain yourself during the establishment period). My debt burden is relatively low as I am mostly self-funded – I've only got about $9k in debt right now (doesn't mean personal money isn't tight, just that my debt is low). I haven't made it to the 5-year mark where some stats suggest most of us bail out, but I don't expect to be bailing anytime soon. Am I successful? Maybe by some standards yes and others no. Like I said, I'm happy. Toot-toot;-) Ever grateful to have been your student, Joy Keller ________ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Board Certified in Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Ramona Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Hi Z'ev and others~ I am a lurking student here and guess that I need to add my perspective. I am not fresh out of college, but instead embarking on a 3rd career choice, thus an older student in my 40's. My background was in the corporate business world, which I left to study massage therapy. My full intention was to use massage therapy to pay my way through acupuncture school and to continue to integrate massage while I practice acupuncture. It still is my intention to do that. I am lucky though, I have an incredible business background to pull from and I have been educating my clients on the merits and wonders of CM, so many clients will still be my clients when I transition. Education is key and I cannot stress that enough. I cannot begin to tell you how many people never knew about what CM can do for them. They were open and I referred them out with great success. I was also very fortunate because I took the business management course my very first semester of school and NOT the last semester of school. The instructor was relatively new as a practitioner, but absolutely wonderful. I now have 4 years to compile equipment, think of my website, prepare forms, business material and write a business plan as well as to research geographic areas of the country that I may want to move to. I also have 4 years to hone in additional massage modalities that will fit in with my practice, such as lymph drainage and cranial sacral therapy to name a few. I have a plan and I feel that this is KEY. Why? I am not left scrambling and panicking my VERY last semester of school. I am preparing now and I do believe that the schools really need to look at this and revise their schedules. So many " kids " are there straight out of college and have never worked and really don't have a clue about becoming successful and building a successful practice. Many never even think of bodywork to adjunct their practice, but it is a very nice complement to acupuncture. it does not have to forever, if one's heart is really not there. I truly believe that this needs to be stressed the first year with students and not their last year. The instructor was very honest and shared totally what he has done to build his practice, as he also offered additional modalities as well. It is my belief, that this gives the student time to think about it as well as giving the student time to learn modalities if she or he so desires, so then they are equipped to become successful and not frustrated and think they are a failure. I was told in massage school to not give my day job, to gradually build up a practice. Great solid advice and I see it applying here, if that is what one desires to do. We are what we think we are. I am planting seeds now to be incredibly successful wherever I decide to practice. Just my perspective from a 2nd year " older " student. Judith _______________ Try amazing new 3D maps http://maps.live.com/?wip=51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Zev I also would not like to discourage anyone but at the same time i think we have the obligation of making sure people know what they are getting into. From what i have seen in the bay area many do not and many told me the where mislead my the schools. I have enjoyed a great career and have a great time doing what i do. I just hate to see so many great people struggle so much. Oakland, CA 94609 - Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:15 PM Re: Re: why acupuncturist don't make it Alon, I appreciate Todd's honesty and full disclosure. I am just concerned about how students and new practitioners who are in 'the background' on the list must feel about all this. And, like Mark Reese, I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from studying Chinese medicine as a possible profession. On Jan 4, 2007, at 10:32 PM, wrote: > Zev > At this point Todd is only a peripheral poster, ie not very > frequent. I think the character of the list is with us. Todd has a > view and is entitled to share just as all of us. Hopefully such > opinions would come with some support. > I apologize if i did not understand what you wrote > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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